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Old 09-19-2019, 04:34 PM   #85
Lazerbrainz2k3

 
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Originally Posted by Lafourche1 View Post
$23,000,000

Is the CEO worth ~552 times the worth of the average GM employee?

Does she do 552 times the work on any given day?

I recommend Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the Twenty-First Century.
When the average GM employee screws up big time, can the consequences be 1/552 the scope of when Mary Barra screws up big time?

When your average employee causes rework worth a couple thousand, versus executives maybe starting a new vehicle program worth billions in development costs only to fail a couple model years in?

In any event, seems like you're dodging the simple truth of what the answer to the math problem I proposed to you is.
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Old 09-19-2019, 04:55 PM   #86
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When the average GM employee screws up big time, can the consequences be 1/552 the scope of when Mary Barra screws up big time?

When your average employee causes rework worth a couple thousand, versus executives maybe starting a new vehicle program worth billions in development costs only to fail a couple model years in?

In any event, seems like you're dodging the simple truth of what the answer to the math problem I proposed to you is.
I am not dodging anything. I am simply looking at the larger picture. The growth of CEO pay is obscene. The growth of income for the middle class is abysmal.

You seem to be advocating that the CEO is deserving of this outrageous growth. I disagree. I get your math that distributing the CEO pay would not solve the bigger issue. However, plainly the outrageous growth of CEO pay is a contributing factor to the shrinking middle class and income disparity.

EDIT: If the CEO screws up, they get a golden parachute worth millions. The line worker loses their job, health insurance and retirement. Fair would be if the CEO did not get the parachute and had all of their holdings sold on the courthouse steps to pay for their screw up.
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:13 PM   #87
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Hey that's $135 for each worker if Barra worked for free! That would solve everyone's problem!
Claiming exec pay is unfair is misdirection at best.

GM is offering a one-time $8000 ratification bonus in the new contract for all workers. Would the union rather have Barra give up all her salary or take the $8000 bonus?

UAW workers pay approx 1.44% of wages as dues. UAW leadership is paid between $111k and $200k base salary, plus benefits, perqs, and bonus. The bonus is 7% of profit sharing dues. 2019 UAW profit sharing was $1.19B (billion). 1.44% of that is $17.13M in dues paid to the union. 7% of that is $1.2M in bonus to each of the UAW top brass.

How about the UAW brass give up their bonus and let the workers keep the $17M in profit sharing dues? They can keep their $200k salaries and benefits. Seems fair right?

I'm being facetious, but you see my point. Top mgmt gets paid commensurate with their responsibility in the organization. I have no problem with that.
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:20 PM   #88
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Hey that's $135 for each worker if Barra worked for free! That would solve everyone's problem!
Claiming exec pay is unfair is misdirection at best.

GM is offering a one-time $8000 ratification bonus in the new contract for all workers. Would the union rather have Barra give up all her salary or take the $8000 bonus?

UAW workers pay approx 1.44% of wages as dues. UAW leadership is paid between $111k and $200k base salary, plus benefits, perqs, and bonus. The bonus is 7% of profit sharing dues. 2019 UAW profit sharing was $1.19B (billion). 1.44% of that is $17.13M in dues paid to the union. 7% of that is $1.2M in bonus to each of the UAW top brass.

How about the UAW brass give up their bonus and let the workers keep the $17M in profit sharing dues? They can keep their $200k salaries and benefits. Seems fair right?

I'm being facetious, but you see my point. Top mgmt gets paid commensurate with their responsibility in the organization. I have no problem with that.

I am not going to argue CEO's don't deserve to be compensated well for their work and dedication( takes years to get there in most circumstances for big corporations). I will say that they don't deserve golden parachutes when they are fired or send a business into bankruptcy...( I remember the days bankruptcy was a bad thing and not a good business decision).

But the growth of their pay compared to the average worker Joe is ridiculous. Not saying Barra should take a pay cut and distribute it back to the workers. But to say the workers are being greedy for wanting any kind of raise in their wages and benefits when the pay for management keeps on going up and up and up while they stagnate is a joke to say you're fine with that.
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:09 PM   #89
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what i'm about to say isn't going to be popular here at Camaro6, but first let me ask this question. Who is responsible for and allows the continuation of our "capitalist" corporate structures?

I guess the question, at least for me, is a bit of a rhetorical one because I believe that WE, this country, our laws etc. provide the economic system for corporations to thrive. Now, that in it of itself is not something we can really fully account for here on a car forum, but my own opinion on CEO and VP (C-suite level pay), and here comes the "what i'm about to say isn't going to be popular" is that if any organization decides to benefit from our corporate laws (allowing for public investment), then their CEO / C-suite level pay is capped by some metric, be it median or average employee pay etc.

Many times when we see a CEO utterly fail and we see their 100+ million dollar buyout in the contract and we, most of us(?) ask...WTF is that all about. The answer given by pundits of high CEO pay such as boards of directors, is that the boards need to "attract talent" away from competitors and this is how they do it. Ok, so my idea levels the playing field and now a company doesn't have to offer ridiculous contracts. AND IF a company decides it needs to offer their CEO $$$ outside of that cap, FINE, they just can't get the benefits of a corporation or S-corp or whatever the case, they can stay a private non publicly traded organization and pay the CEO whatever the hell they want.

anyway...whatever - never gonna happen, but maybe this sort of idea makes sense at some level.

Also, part of the problem is that executives really think they work harder than anyone else, because answering a phone call or responding to an email at night or when they are on vacation is really hard work and they consider this that they are working 24/7.
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Old 09-19-2019, 07:52 PM   #90
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So a question to all of you that have issues with CEO pay. Why do you complain about that but have no issue with Justin Verlander making $35 million per year while the hot dog vendor makes crap plus tips? Or that Robert Downey Junior made $150 million on a bunch of Marvel movies and that a ton of support crew made minimum wage?

It takes talent, hard work and a ton of sacrifice to be a CEO, big company or small. I’m an executive at my company and I can honestly tell you I’m no where close to what it takes to being capable of running my company.

Just curious.
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Old 09-19-2019, 09:04 PM   #91
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So a question to all of you that have issues with CEO pay. Why do you complain about that but have no issue with Justin Verlander making $35 million per year while the hot dog vendor makes crap plus tips? Or that Robert Downey Junior made $150 million on a bunch of Marvel movies and that a ton of support crew made minimum wage?

It takes talent, hard work and a ton of sacrifice to be a CEO, big company or small. I’m an executive at my company and I can honestly tell you I’m no where close to what it takes to being capable of running my company.

Just curious.
I lost interest in pro sports about 10 years ago. I can't fathom cheering, screaming, paying hundreds to go and watch millionaires running around catching a ball, and then showing off when they do (in some sports), and not to mention that we dumb arse tax payers willingly pay for some of these billionaire owner's stadiums...just crazy.

The question for me on CEO pay is, what are they really worth? I suppose we only get to see some of the outliers where they get an extravagant buy outs after they tank a company, but when we see them, it's pretty unbelievable some of these guys get 100's of millions to leave. I can tell you what i'll get if i fail at my job, big fat donut hole. I also have an opinion, that probably is not scientific in nature, but that in these large corps, the CEO gig, pretty much their buddies on the board determining their pay, and then that CEO sits on other boards who determine that pay...it's kinda like a club that maybe scratches each other's backs pretty good, I'm definitely cynical about it.

There are good examples from my point of view, like Costco (at least with the last CEO, not sure on current) pretty low CEO pay by comparison to their industry and size and also how they treat their employees, even the ones who go out and fetch carts, cuz i've seen the same girl at the Costco I go to getting carts from the lot for the last 11 years. Same with Larry the guy who checks my receipt on the way out. I'd like to see that model more often.

Found this: "... the company has long been ahead of its peers in terms of fair pay and appears more than capable of balancing livable wages for employees and returns for shareholders."

https://realmoney.thestreet.com/inve...wages-14891458

seems legit, why can't others do the same? Maybe, just maybe because they don't care or don't think others are worth their contribution?

After the Navy, I worked at a warehouse (Coors Distributor), running forklift, loading trucks etc. At one point our shift manager decided it was a good idea to not allow anyone to take a break, no lunch, nothing. So, because I wasn't worried about paying a mortgage or raising a family at the time, i was not scared to confront the manager, when I did, his response, i'm sure like many others was "If you don't like it, there are 10 guys outside the fence waiting for your job". IDK, maybe he really wanted employees to Unionize or something. I quit like the next day or week - didn't need that BS, but for 100 million or so people, they do have a mortgage and a family to worry about and can't take that risk.
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:08 AM   #92
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I love how all the animosity in here is from middle class people tearing into middle class people. Both sides have their suckage, but at the end of the day they both need each other.


Try supporting the guys and gals that are on strike. Drop off some donuts, take them coffee. Go hang out with them.


Take away the unions, the good or the bad ones and watch what happens.
I got kicked out of a Auto dealership years back because a Union electrician wouldn’t work next to me while I wired up Cat5 cabling for the dealerships network. I had to go back after midnight to complete my work because they wouldn’t work side by side with this hardworking skilled US citizen. Now you want me hanging with them when these same type of people wouldn’t hang with me. ? What about these people hanging side by side on the assembly line with non-union folks? Seems to me it’s a 1 lane road, the Union is way or no way.
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:25 AM   #93
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I'm not a labor expert, I don't know anything about the UAW or any Union's inter workings or how good or bad each one might be. I'm curious though why such animosity towards people joining one and having the ability to sit down at the table with "management" and fight for better wages / benefits / working environment? Why is there such disdain for this concept? If the Union was so bad for the union members, THEY have the right to dissolve the UNION by majority vote.

If you think they are getting too much, then the question or disdain shouldn't be about why THEY are getting something that you are not, the question should be why can't you get what they have?

Do we hold the same disdain for other unions, like Police and Firefighters Unions? What is the criteria for one being good and one being bad?

just my 2 cents.
I worked hard and have more so no need to desire what they have. The fact is the work isn’t as difficult as it once was for these workers. They are paid and compensated well, we taxpayers don’t want to bail this company out again if times get bad. Didn’t they get profit sharing payments of over $10k these past few years?

Me personally, living in a suburb near a big city, yes I feel we pay the police, firemen and teachers too much. Many of these folks bank $100k before benefits. If paying them was based differently rather then property taxes, perhaps it wouldn’t bother me. I don’t use or need them for what I pay, now my neighbors with the kids and the lower property tax bill who have needs for them gets a great deal. It’s different for everyone, unfortunately those that have no need fund a large portion for those that do. In a nutshell, I’m just saying to those that want the police, firemen and teachers to be paid more, to put more of their own money towards them. Now in the big cities, yes, these folks deserve that type of pay. I think all the suburban fire trucks rack up more miles making runs to the grocery store and yes I’m being serious.
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Old 09-20-2019, 08:23 AM   #94
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Anyone who is singing the blues that they don't get paid enough has options. Like get an education and get a better job.

The days of the free lunch should be over. Free health insurance, juicy retirement plans and other benefits need to stop for unions, teachers and government employees. It's time for those employees to start contributing to their benefit plans.

I'll use my home state of NJ as an example. Property taxes are through the roof. It's not unusual for people to be paying $10,000 per year in property taxes for a modest home. $15K to $20K per year is not unheard of. A lot of property taxes go to funding "education" - meaning teacher salaries and benefits. Back in 2009 to 2013 or so, people were losing their jobs or didn't get raises. In NJ, unionized teachers continued to get raises of 2% or 3% per year - on the backs of people that were losing their homes in foreclosure. For state employees, it's a similar story and it's choking the taxpayers. The state is in a shaky financial situation due to the benefits for state employees. It's time to change all this.

There are places in America where cars, motorcycles and other durable goods are being made without union employees. I haven't heard many stories of parts falling off things not made in union shops.
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Old 09-20-2019, 08:35 AM   #95
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Anyone who is singing the blues that they don't get paid enough has options. Like get an education and get a better job.

The days of the free lunch should be over. Free health insurance, juicy retirement plans and other benefits need to stop for unions, teachers and government employees. It's time for those employees to start contributing to their benefit plans.

I'll use my home state of NJ as an example. Property taxes are through the roof. It's not unusual for people to be paying $10,000 per year in property taxes for a modest home. $15K to $20K per year is not unheard of. A lot of property taxes go to funding "education" - meaning teacher salaries and benefits. Back in 2009 to 2013 or so, people were losing their jobs or didn't get raises. In NJ, unionized teachers continued to get raises of 2% or 3% per year - on the backs of people that were losing their homes in foreclosure. For state employees, it's a similar story and it's choking the taxpayers. The state is in a shaky financial situation due to the benefits for state employees. It's time to change all this.

There are places in America where cars, motorcycles and other durable goods are being made without union employees. I haven't heard many stories of parts falling off things not made in union shops.

Those 2% raises was their salaries keeping up with inflation. Shocking concept isn't it that a middle class salary keeps up with it.....
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:06 AM   #96
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Those 2% raises was their salaries keeping up with inflation. Shocking concept isn't it that a middle class salary keeps up with it.....
...except those raises were paid for by taxpayers that weren't getting raises to keep up with inflation - if they were lucky enough to have not lost their job in that economy. A raise shouldn't be an entitlement program. Schools are not a going concern. The raises depend on property taxes paid on the backs of homeowners. It's time to fix this system so it's equitable for everyone.
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:21 AM   #97
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...except those raises were paid for by taxpayers that weren't getting raises to keep up with inflation - if they were lucky enough to have not lost their job in that economy. A raise shouldn't be an entitlement program. Schools are not a going concern. The raises depend on property taxes paid on the backs of homeowners. It's time to fix this system so it's equitable for everyone.

It is time to fix the system. All wages should keep up with inflation at the very least. Every thing else does.
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:46 AM   #98
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It is time to fix the system. All wages should keep up with inflation at the very least. Every thing else does.

Good luck with that. Wages and raises for employees should be based on merit and performance. If you want income that increases with inflation try Social Security.
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