[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by 17rsvert

No disrespect intended, and if Biden is your guy, I have no problem with that. But if you want to believe there were zero issues with the election, just keep listening to the Dems, mainstream media and Big Tech. From your response it sounds like you get your information there. Not surprising. The truth is being twisted, misreported, ignored, and censored.

If you want to know the truth about what has actually happened with the Arizona Senate and vs. the Maricopa county board of supervisors, you need to dig a little deeper. The audits arranged by the county (not the Senate) that you refer to were performed by the same company that sets up and certifies the election equipment before the elections. Their 'audit' consisted of nothing more than checking that the equipment scans and counts ballots correctly. There was no recount of all 2.1 million ballots to compare to the tabulated results to make sure the certified results match the ballot count. There was no examination of the paper ballots to look for counterfeits mixed in. There was no verification that the signature envelope count matched the ballot count. Computer manipulation of the totals by either internally set algorithms or outside hacking would never be found in that type of 'audit'. Besides, having the same company audit their own work is like asking a suspected criminal to give testimony then sit on the jury. All of this is factual, yet ignored in all the news reports.

The mainstream news reports say (as you do) that there is no evidence of fraud and results have been confirmed multiple times, yet no in depth forensic evidence has yet to be presented. Also, instead of discussing the unresolved issues concerning the election equipment and ballots, (for example, sworn affidavits from eye witnesses that said they saw ballots that were not printed on the same paper) the media instead attacks and disparages the audit team members. Jovan Pulitzer, for example, did invent the CueCat (which was a marketing failure) but they conveniently leave out the fact that he is the inventor of the QR code, the scannable square code system that is used worldwide by billions of people. The fact that the forensic cyber team assembled does not typically work on election equipment means nothing. There are presenty zero companies in the world certified to do this type of work on election equipment, but the equipment itself is nothing more than old PC based technology. Watch the HBO documentary Kill Chain.

You need to ask yourself, If the election was the most secure in American history, why is the left not encouraging these audits instead of trying everything they can to prevent them? If the election was above board, the auditors will find nothing but a clean election, and the people pushing for the audit will look foolish.

I think the election was as accurate as all the other elections, so it’s surprising that this time around there is so much fallout.
How many more audits do we need? How many recounts took place already? How many of those recounts actually found more votes for Biden? How many court cases were there? 60? How many Trump appointed judges shot him down? And where is Powells kraken? Now she’s embarrassing herself and disrespecting her believers by stating they should have never believed her in the first place!

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by gtfoxy

Don’t worry about it.

Now go watch more MSM.

“MSN”

[17rsvert]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

I think the election was as accurate as all the other elections, so it’s surprising that this time around there is so much fallout.
How many more audits do we need? How many recounts took place already? How many of those recounts actually found more votes for Biden? How many court cases were there? 60? How many Trump appointed judges shot him down? And where is Powells kraken? Now she’s embarrassing herself and disrespecting her believers by stating they should have never believed her in the first place!

No much point in further discussion here unless you are going to actually dispute my points with facts. I laid out a bunch of detailed factual information for which your only response is to regurgitate CNN talking points. So let's discuss your points in detail.

FULL recounts in Atrium county in MI and Windham county in NH both found swings that resulted in major changes to the totals. Until a full audit is performed, the only reasonable explanation is that the scanners or tabulators manipulated the numbers. But you say there is NO evidence of problems. Courts in MI and the NH state legislators are allowing audits to move forward. A judge in GA is allowing a full ballot audit based on evidence of problems.

Regarding court cases, a majority were not heard based on standing, so no evidence was presented in those cases. Evidence in a lot of those cases is going to be presented in different form in upcoming cases. Just because evidence is not heard is not proof that it is false. Of the cases that were heard, Trump's side won a majority of those (resulting in changes to future election laws and procedures) but none were substantial enough to effect the outcome.

Sidney Powell's statement was a legal argument regarding her defamation suit that said none of her alligations should be believed as fact UNTIL all the evidence is presented in court. Her alligations are her professional opinion based on the evidence she has seen. If lawyers were sued everytime they publicly stated their opinion of a case before it was heard, I think every trial lawyer in the country would be in trouble. Again this was spun by the media. Just because CNN says she disrespected her believers does not make it true.

And if, as you say, the election was accurate, why are the County officials in Maricopa county crying on social media that a partial recount needs to be done and a full recount and examination of the ballots is sedition? Why is the GA secretary of state petitioning the court to allow an audit of ONLY the digital scanned images of the ballots and not the paper ballots themselves? What are they both so afraid of? If you have nothing to hide, you will hide nothing.

If you have any facts to dispute the details I have presented here, I would love to hear them. Unlike the left, we conservatives and libertarians have no desire to silence our opponents. We respect the views of others and feel that open debate is the best way to encourage unity and mutual respect.

This conversation has taken a political turn, but the discussion really does involve the interests of those of us on this forum. Or does the recent dollar per gallon increase in gas have nothing to do with the election's outcome?

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by 17rsvert

No much point in further discussion here unless you are going to actually dispute my points with facts. I laid out a bunch of detailed factual information for which your only response is to regurgitate CNN talking points. So let's discuss your points in detail.

FULL recounts in Atrium county in MI and Windham county in NH both found swings that resulted in major changes to the totals. Until a full audit is performed, the only reasonable explanation is that the scanners or tabulators manipulated the numbers. But you say there is NO evidence of problems. Courts in MI and the NH state legislators are allowing audits to move forward. A judge in GA is allowing a full ballot audit based on evidence of problems.

Regarding court cases, a majority were not heard based on standing, so no evidence was presented in those cases. Evidence in a lot of those cases is going to be presented in different form in upcoming cases. Just because evidence is not heard is not proof that it is false. Of the cases that were heard, Trump's side won a majority of those (resulting in changes to future election laws and procedures) but none were substantial enough to effect the outcome.

Sidney Powell's statement was a legal argument regarding her defamation suit that said none of her alligations should be believed as fact UNTIL all the evidence is presented in court. Her alligations are her professional opinion based on the evidence she has seen. If lawyers were sued everytime they publicly stated their opinion of a case before it was heard, I think every trial lawyer in the country would be in trouble. Again this was spun by the media. Just because CNN says she disrespected her believers does not make it true.

And if, as you say, the election was accurate, why are the County officials in Maricopa county crying on social media that a partial recount needs to be done and a full recount and examination of the ballots is sedition? Why is the GA secretary of state petitioning the court to allow an audit of ONLY the digital scanned images of the ballots and not the paper ballots themselves? What are they both so afraid of? If you have nothing to hide, you will hide nothing.

If you have any facts to dispute the details I have presented here, I would love to hear them. Unlike the left, we conservatives and libertarians have no desire to silence our opponents. We respect the views of others and feel that open debate is the best way to encourage unity and mutual respect.

This conversation has taken a political turn, but the discussion really does involve the interests of those of us on this forum. Or does the recent dollar per gallon increase in gas have nothing to do with the election's outcome?

You bring up a lot of points but unfortunately I’m not going to go down every single rabbit hole, I just don’t have time for it. At the same time your points don’t change the outcome of the election. I did look up what is going on here in Maricopa county and in my humble opinion the audit is poorly ran and a waste of time and resources. Cyber ninjas... Really??
Sidney Powell and others can spin however she likes, but it’s simply shameless backpedaling. I mean how much longer do we have to wait for the Kraken? Newsmax and fox also backpedaled.
Unfortunately for T , The people have spoken just like they did when he won the first time around. This time, he got smoked.
For sure another thread derailed, but not by me.
I’ll leave with this from Ludwig. A WI Trump appointed judge who did give bone spurs the time of day.

This is an extraordinary case," Ludwig wrote. "A sitting president who did not prevail in his bid for reelection has asked for federal court help in setting aside the popular vote based on disputed issues of election administration, issues he plainly could have raised before the vote occurred."
Ludwig said Trump had been given the chance to make his case, and he had lost.
"Plaintiff 'asks that the Rule of Law be followed,'" Ludwig wrote. "It has been."
"Because plaintiff has failed to show a clear departure from the Wisconsin Legislature’s directives, his complaint must be dismissed," Ludwig said. "There has been no violation of the Constitution."
Trump's federal lawsuit challenged Wisconsin Election Commission guidance that clerks should fill in missing address information for people who witness absentee ballots. Ludwig noted this policy had been in place since 2016.
"This has been the unchallenged guidance on the issue for more than four years," Ludwig wrote.

[17rsvert]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

You bring up a lot of points but unfortunately I’m not going to go down every single rabbit hole, I just don’t have time for it...

And that is EXACTLY my point. When the Dems, mainstream media and Big Tech team up to control the narrative, personally discredit those with opposing facts, hide and censor credible information, and even outright make up stories, of course most people (on both sides of the issue) will not put any effort into getting to the buried facts.

Thanks for proving my argument on that one point.

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by 17rsvert

And that is EXACTLY my point. When the Dems, mainstream media and Big Tech team up to control the narrative, personally discredit those with opposing facts, hide and censor credible information, and even outright make up stories, of course most people (on both sides of the issue) will not put any effort into getting to the buried facts.

Thanks for proving my argument on that one point.

Time and effort was spent for two months—and money to no avail . I read that WI is looking to sue t and Powell for that very reason.
No need to beat a dead horse.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

That +20% statistic is bogus. GM sold 96 less Camaros the 1st qtr of '21 compared to '20. 7,185 (1st, '20) vs. 7,089 (1st, 21). However, there were two additional selling days in 1st qtr '20, so GM sold 1 more Camaro per day in 1st qtr '21 than '20...so I guess that's a slight improvement. 96 vs 95 per day.

You should change the thread title to "Q1 Camaro Sales down 1.3%"

IIRC Ford sold about 17k Mustangs in the 1st qtr of '21. I want GM to sell enough Camaros to keep it a successful brand so they keep making them. At my first big car meet this past weekend since getting my '21 ZL1 in mid-March, I was the only ZL1, and there were two '20 GT500s - One CFTP and one base. I see the rarity of the ZL1 as a bonus, but they have to make enough of them to keep the lights on and a little extra for further development...

GM is also mis-leading by saying the Malibu "retail" sales are up 46%, when in actuality, the Malibu sales are down 23.5%. What are these marketers thinking? It's just silly - you can't trust media dumps because manufacturers will use strange metrics to make it look like something is selling way more than it is.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

GM is also mis-leading by saying the Malibu "retail" sales are up 46%, when in actuality, the Malibu sales are down 23.5%. What are these marketers thinking? It's just silly - you can't trust media dumps because manufacturers will use strange metrics to make it look like something is selling way more than it is.

Are they? What is the entire context of the statement and what is the source? If it's part of a SEC filing for quarterly performance, and it is part of a larger statement that RENTAL COMPANY sales are significantly down, then it's an important thing for shareholders to know - "No, we aren't selling anywhere near as many Malibu sedans to the rental companies right now. But, we are selling significantly more directly to consumers. So, the interest in the vehicle is still there even though fleet sale drop-off shows an overall drop."

[MR's 2SS]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

What went down with the election?

I wont go back over things in the past at this point.
But consider whats going on right now. Even with the propaganda spewing from all sides. And Im not talking about instant 30% increases in energy costs or looming tax increases Ill wager on everyone on this site. Gun control that is ominous to any gun owner and destruction of The Constitution... By both duopoly occupiers of high office and the corporate POS "leaders" both globally and domestically....
But just look at how say.. Cuomo is treated in the media... right now he seems to be getting lambasted by the media over groping and inappropriate actions towards woman on his staff... The news is all about that.
Why? To detract from his bumbling criminal mishandling of the elderly in the nursing homes. Where his edicts forced the facilities to accept people known to be infected with covid... HIS policy... his action... causing the covid to flourish in the nursing homes... killing litterally tens of thousands...but no news about that.
However Desantis in Florida has been getting slammed for his handling of covid even as the residents of Florida... where I have hundreds of family members... think he is doing a great job. But many think he is a prime candidate for president in 2024 and so the msm is going after him daily. The latest where they litterally edited video to make his comments fit their agenda... and in the process making it look like he said the opposite of what he actually said.
The relentless drumming of political agenda into broadcasts that are in theory news. To the point there is no news available. The censorship of only conservative speech on facebook or twitter or youtube.
The pulling of the allstar game from Atlanta over changes in the law based on absolute mistruth as to what the law says. Yet there was never a word about how attorneys for the dnc managed to get the voting laws altered completely outside the legislative process prior to the 2020 election. Not a word. In fact as your reading this your preparing to contend that nothing wrong occured... right? Not in Georgia, not in Pa... Not in Wisconsin. The holding of challengers away from the counting rooms and actually holding up cardboard over the windows so no one could see what they were doing... None of that happend ... Nothing to see here... right?
The border is a mess. If the situation at the border looked like this under Trump the "news" would be calling it a genocide. Lets not even talk about how they are transporting illegal migrants everywhere across the nation at our expense. And in California setting them right into the classrooms vacated by the resident children to school them while the residents children are on lockdown.
The big positive news today? The service sector job growth at 67%... whoopde frigging hoo... all those great burger flipping jobs are returning...
But not to worry. biden says raising corporate taxes will have no impact on the economy and yellin is calling for a GLOBAL increase on corporate tax...
I know this post will get me kicked off if I continue so Ill shut up.

[MR's 2SS]

My son is a 30 year old Bernie voter.
Ive been having these political debates with him since he came home from college.
They all sound the same. He knows what Im going to say before I say it and visa versa.
I know when someone is about to declare they dont have time for further debate.
The thing is... for me... once you see the truth you cant unsee it. Right or wrong.. whatever your truth is.
But I believe we are about to find out soon. The globalists are moving so fast trying to get everything jammed so far down our throats before we wake up that it will be too late.
As we debate red pill blue pill they are tightening the noose around our necks. Its all theater at this point. If it were chess... we wouldnt even be pawns. Our so called leaders are the pawns... were perhaps dust on the chess board for all they care.
The globalists will be the end of America as we know it.
Soon enough I believe those of us enjoying our Camaros... or F-250s... will be condemned for choosing vehicles that dont conform. They are already leveraging banks not to do business with entities conducting business with gun companies... or in the case of the allstar game... companies perceived, true or not.. to be labelled "racists"... they control the information so if they say you are something bad... you are. if your the wrong color.. wrong gender..drive the wrong car... voted for the wrong guy.. dont support this BS or that... they are coming for you. This is why they are obsessed with gun control. They dont want you to be able to fight back.
If you think its crazy then look at what the former head of the cia said on "the news" maybe back in January where he spoke of certain voters as a malignancy... He actually said the malignance must be removed before it spreads...
This is propaganda straight out of 1930s Germany. Maybe you dont feel it... maybe you think you are immune if your wear the right political slogan on a button on your lapel. But I feel it... I am their target and I know it. I feel it every time they speak. My race and gender has been responsible for everything bad that has happened in the last 2000 years. They are teaching this crap in schools... to grammar school children...
If your news makes you feel good about whats going on in our country then lucky you. If it makes you feel like everything is normal.. lucky you... when they come for you... I hope your profile makes them pass you by...
I know for sure they are not passing me by.

[17rsvert]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

Time and effort was spent for two months—and money to no avail . I read that WI is looking to sue t and Powell for that very reason.
No need to beat a dead horse.

The only problem is: you are mistaken, either by deception or willful ignorance, to believe the horse is dead.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

That +20% statistic is bogus. GM sold 96 less Camaros the 1st qtr of '21 compared to '20. 7,185 (1st, '20) vs. 7,089 (1st, 21). However, there were two additional selling days in 1st qtr '20, so GM sold 1 more Camaro per day in 1st qtr '21 than '20...so I guess that's a slight improvement. 96 vs 95 per day.

You should change the thread title to "Q1 Camaro Sales down 1.3%"

IIRC Ford sold about 17k Mustangs in the 1st qtr of '21. I want GM to sell enough Camaros to keep it a successful brand so they keep making them. At my first big car meet this past weekend since getting my '21 ZL1 in mid-March, I was the only ZL1, and there were two '20 GT500s - One CFTP and one base. I see the rarity of the ZL1 as a bonus, but they have to make enough of them to keep the lights on and a little extra for further development...

GM is also mis-leading by saying the Malibu "retail" sales are up 46%, when in actuality, the Malibu sales are down 23.5%. What are these marketers thinking? It's just silly - you can't trust media dumps because manufacturers will use strange metrics to make it look like something is selling way more than it is.

It's marketing at work. They are making the official press release sound good to the bean counters and shareholders. They aren't technically lying, they are just cherry picking good data points that make it look better than the overall numbers.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

That +20% statistic is bogus. GM sold 96 less Camaros the 1st qtr of '21 compared to '20. 7,185 (1st, '20) vs. 7,089 (1st, 21). However, there were two additional selling days in 1st qtr '20, so GM sold 1 more Camaro per day in 1st qtr '21 than '20...so I guess that's a slight improvement. 96 vs 95 per day.

You should change the thread title to "Q1 Camaro Sales down 1.3%"

IIRC Ford sold about 17k Mustangs in the 1st qtr of '21. I want GM to sell enough Camaros to keep it a successful brand so they keep making them. At my first big car meet this past weekend since getting my '21 ZL1 in mid-March, I was the only ZL1, and there were two '20 GT500s - One CFTP and one base. I see the rarity of the ZL1 as a bonus, but they have to make enough of them to keep the lights on and a little extra for further development...

GM is also mis-leading by saying the Malibu "retail" sales are up 46%, when in actuality, the Malibu sales are down 23.5%. What are these marketers thinking? It's just silly - you can't trust media dumps because manufacturers will use strange metrics to make it look like something is selling way more than it is.

Originally Posted by shaffe

It's marketing at work. They are making the official press release sound good to the bean counters and shareholders. They aren't technically lying, they are just cherry picking good data points that make it look better than the overall numbers.

I've said it multiple times - GM has two performance options where Ford only has 1. The sales split between Camaro and Corvette generally hurts the Camaro more.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

I've said it multiple times - GM has two performance options where Ford only has 1. The sales split between Camaro and Corvette generally hurts the Camaro more.

Not entirely true. The GT is in a very different category generally, but is still on that spectrum. Also, the Lightning is / has been in that category as well.

Generally, though, you are accurate in that GM is splitting their sales between the Corvette (with an extremely loyal following and willingness to pay stupid prices) and the Camaro. With the Camaro being the only one of the two that crosses 'boundaries' from the lower-cost one folks buy for fun and styling and the higher-cost one folks buy purely for performance.