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Old 04-06-2020, 03:07 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by LESS1 View Post
What is wrong with maximizing ROI by sharing parts and components? Wasn’t it Frod that hit upon the MOD Motor approach several years back? Also, what does Frod put in their top of the range GT? Well it’s not “bespoke” correct? Both manufactures are in the volume business not limited run cars with “bespoke” components.

As for sales potential Chevy decided to build a world class performance pony car and Frod didn’t and still hasn’t. Of course, this market segment will be limited to the folks that want either the image of owning a hardcore sports car. Or folks like myself that want a great car for track work without the usual headaches associated with heavy track use. And for this purpose, the Camaro 1LE is better than anything remotely close price wise.

There is no need for Chevy to endow Camaro with “bespoke” parts as ZLE/ZL1 already outperforms GT500 with a six year old car and “half ass” engine to paraphrase your earlier comment. Why bother at this point adding LT5 and thousands of dollars to Camaro price tag? Noting to gain except for additional overhead.

Chevy benchmarked the performance requirements they were targeting for this segment. Did the design, engineering and development work, produced the end product, tested, revised where necessary, went GA and moved on. Like they always do for this and Corvette segments. Unlike Frod there aren’t major issues with these cars that require continued development after release to fix said issues. You call the addition of IRS, Suspension, Tires, HP/TQ excitement and innovation. Let’s call it what it really is. Catching up to the competition. Conversation overhead at Frod offices…“Hey let’s build a better Mustang and call it GT350/R, that will take care of those damn Camaro’s”. Not exactly, try again. Hey, we are exciting and innovative…again. Are we there yet? Almost. You get the point right?

Last Gen Z/28 was a great concept that failed miserably from a sales perspective. Yet as you mentioned was a good performer but who exactly was the target market? Do you honestly believe any of the Porsche faithful cross shopped a Z/28? Doubtful. Typical Corvette buyers ran as soon as they found out the car was de-contented. GM focus groups and alleged customers balked at the entry price and yet here we are with people pledging “I’d buy a LT5 top of the run Camaro." Sure they would. I for one am surprised you are not already in a Mustang the way you go on about GM/Chevy and all the “pitfalls and issues” endlessly.
You're arguing that the Camaro doesn't need to change, as its sales are literally crashing and burning. I can't be the only one that sees the Camaro is heading to a second cancellation. GM is content to just the car die off again.
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Old 04-06-2020, 03:30 PM   #198
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I can't be the only one that sees the Camaro is heading to a second cancellation. GM is content to just the car die off again.
You're not, this entire thread is just re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

We are infinitely more passionate about the marque than Mary, it's just biz to her.
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Old 04-06-2020, 08:12 PM   #199
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You're not, this entire thread is just re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

We are infinitely more passionate about the marque than Mary, it's just biz to her.
Mark Reuss, there is hope.
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Old 04-06-2020, 08:16 PM   #200
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Don't feel bad. I’m sure they aren’t judging you.
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Old 04-06-2020, 08:48 PM   #201
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I read this entire thread and there are some great points written about why the camaro is failing in sales. Some folks pointed out putting an LT5 in the camaro would help. I personally would love to see that but I don't think it would help one bit. Chevy barely sells ZL1 Camaro's so adding more power to it and increasing the price due to a better engine, suspension, wheels, tires, brakes, etc (because you know they aren't just going to give the car more power and call it a day) isn't going to help one bit.

Also those of you who ragged on Chevy for putting "10 year old engine in the z28" must not know truly how capable the LS7 was/still is. I would take that motor over the Voodoo and any other NA engine out there. It's still that good despite the major flaw it has in regards to valve's dropping but I would address that.

As other's have mentioned, Chevy needs to advertise and make the V6 and Turbo 4 car more interesting. Maybe drop the price a bit on them as well. Next time you are on the road, count how many mustangs you see through the course of the week and take note of whether or not they are a V8 or a turbo 4/V6. I bet the ratio will be 1.5 V8's for every 10 mustang's you see. SS/GT/RT cars just aren't the cars that sell for these companies. You need to make sure the base models sell by making them more attractive with nice options packages, then try to focus on the V8's selling. I and everyone on this board who are true auto enthusiasts are a VERY small percentage of buyers.
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:53 PM   #202
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Since I bought this car, I've always wished it was a hatchback, like the Camaros I remember from when I was a kid. The trunk lid is just too small to be practical, the back seats are worthless too, but I totally accept that. My main complaint is that there is plenty of cargo space (with the back seats down) it's just not accessible.

But I bought my car as a daily driver, I'm sure that's not a concern for many of you. I love driving the car and now that's she's paid off I expect I will keep on driving her for quite a while until either life gets in the way or she hits the typical Chevy 100k miles or 10 years mark. But, I'm unlikely to buy another any time soon.
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:55 PM   #203
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Mark Reuss, there is hope.

Pretty sure that ship has sailed. He's not his Dads son it seems....
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:25 PM   #204
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You're arguing that the Camaro doesn't need to change, as its sales are literally crashing and burning. I can't be the only one that sees the Camaro is heading to a second cancellation. GM is content to just the car die off again.
Not sure where/when I said change not required to improve sales. What I said was "LT5" is a bad idea and will sell worse than ZL1/ZLE cars. In addition, I said Chevy built a hardcore performance pony car with compromises to achieve this level of performance. How do you suggest Chevy go about correcting these compromises at what is close to the end of the Gen6 life cycle? Spending money on advertising (I know you didn't advocate this) is not going to turn this situation around. The target customer needed to do so is not going to buy a Camaro because of a slick ad campaign.

Will there be a Gen7? Not sure. And if there is will Chevy address some or all of these shortcomings to win market share? It makes sense they would, and if so hopefully not at the expense of the high performance limits of the Gen6 model. One thing that does need to change is the long product lifecycles of Camaro and Corvette. The car business is changing at a pace the Big Three will struggle to keep up with using current product life cycles. Gone are the days when a MY goes 8 or more years. C8 might be an exception for payback reasons, but afterward, I'd expect a new MY every 60 months or less, give or take a bit here and there.

Revisiting the "parts bin" car approach. I'd love to see a C8 with the Blackwing V8 twin-turbo DOHC motor only with VVT Turbos instead of Twin Scroll. Now that would be exciting! Of course, this won't happen. If the rumors hold true we may end up with a Flat-Plane V8 with the Z06/ZR1 using a single or maybe twin turbos. Still exciting but I'm not a FP fan and don't know if I ever will be. I totally understand the advantages of FP, but the cons override these for me. I like reliable cars/engines with cheap (relative) maintenance costs. Look at Ferrari and the cost to maintain these FP engines. There is a reason for the "Factory recommended" maintenance intervals with a five-figure bill at the end of the process. No thanks, keep mine cross plane and simple with low maintenance, again relative.
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Old 04-07-2020, 09:23 AM   #205
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Well Challenger has had a 12 year life cycle on the Challenger and a 15 year on the Charger, Chevy reduced their target market by staying too focused they way they did.
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Old 04-07-2020, 09:37 AM   #206
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Since I bought this car, I've always wished it was a hatchback, like the Camaros I remember from when I was a kid. The trunk lid is just too small to be practical, the back seats are worthless too, but I totally accept that. My main complaint is that there is plenty of cargo space (with the back seats down) it's just not accessible.
But I bought my car as a daily driver, I'm sure that's not a concern for many of you. I love driving the car and now that's she's paid off I expect I will keep on driving her for quite a while until either life gets in the way or she hits the typical Chevy 100k miles or 10 years mark. But, I'm unlikely to buy another any time soon.
I never DD my car and track it often. I still would also love if it was a hatchback so i didn't have to shove my golf clubs in through the passenger door. (I know, i know golf clubs and golfer % was discussed pages ago...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LESS1 View Post
Not sure where/when I said change not required to improve sales. What I said was "LT5" is a bad idea and will sell worse than ZL1/ZLE cars. In addition, I said Chevy built a hardcore performance pony car with compromises to achieve this level of performance. How do you suggest Chevy go about correcting these compromises at what is close to the end of the Gen6 life cycle? Spending money on advertising (I know you didn't advocate this) is not going to turn this situation around. The target customer needed to do so is not going to buy a Camaro because of a slick ad campaign.
Will there be a Gen7? Not sure. And if there is will Chevy address some or all of these shortcomings to win market share? It makes sense they would, and if so hopefully not at the expense of the high performance limits of the Gen6 model. One thing that does need to change is the long product lifecycles of Camaro and Corvette. The car business is changing at a pace the Big Three will struggle to keep up with using current product life cycles. Gone are the days when a MY goes 8 or more years. C8 might be an exception for payback reasons, but afterward, I'd expect a new MY every 60 months or less, give or take a bit here and there.
Revisiting the "parts bin" car approach. I'd love to see a C8 with the Blackwing V8 twin-turbo DOHC motor only with VVT Turbos instead of Twin Scroll. Now that would be exciting! Of course, this won't happen. If the rumors hold true we may end up with a Flat-Plane V8 with the Z06/ZR1 using a single or maybe twin turbos. Still exciting but I'm not a FP fan and don't know if I ever will be. I totally understand the advantages of FP, but the cons override these for me. I like reliable cars/engines with cheap (relative) maintenance costs. Look at Ferrari and the cost to maintain these FP engines. There is a reason for the "Factory recommended" maintenance intervals with a five-figure bill at the end of the process. No thanks, keep mine cross plane and simple with low maintenance, again relative.
I'm on the fence with the LT5 thing as Rocket points out the long lifecycle of the Dodges is clearly being extended even longer just by spiking sales with "new" models and absolutely just adding more power. Perhaps if Chevy did what they never do and make the LT5 Camaro an actual limited edition with only 800 or so models like the Demon was, they would all be sold out before production starts and it would make financial sense.
Can I bring up Dodges cool commercials again? Yeah I think they work.
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:06 PM   #207
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The Camaro is primarily a car purchased by males, and younger males at that. Older males will typically move to the corvette.
I don’t know one female that has a Camaro. I very rarely see a female driving a Camaro.
For example my sister has a Mustang, a girl down the street has a Mustang, a gal where I work has a Mustang, a receptionist at a client I see has a mustang, my cousin and his wife just bought a Mustang. Unlike the Camaro, Mustangs seem to cross the sexes more.
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:14 PM   #208
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In the end - higher sales doesn't mean the car is better. People buy for a lot of reasons.

I for one am function over style everyday, and regardless of trim level, the Camaro excels on every variant over its equivalent with Ford or CFA
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:44 PM   #209
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I never DD my car and track it often. I still would also love if it was a hatchback so i didn't have to shove my golf clubs in through the passenger door. (I know, i know golf clubs and golfer % was discussed pages ago...)


I'm on the fence with the LT5 thing as Rocket points out the long lifecycle of the Dodges is clearly being extended even longer just by spiking sales with "new" models and absolutely just adding more power. Perhaps if Chevy did what they never do and make the LT5 Camaro an actual limited edition with only 800 or so models like the Demon was, they would all be sold out before production starts and it would make financial sense.
Can I bring up Dodges cool commercials again? Yeah I think they work.
IMO, They should have put the LS7 into the SS 1LE
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:06 PM   #210
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In the end - higher sales doesn't mean the car is better. People buy for a lot of reasons.

I for one am function over style everyday, and regardless of trim level, the Camaro excels on every variant over its equivalent with Ford or CFA
Camaro excels in road course handling over the Mustang and Challenger, but other than great handling what does it excel over both of it's rivals?

Maybe bunker layout, it can't be interior layout or quality
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