High Compression Ratio + Boost = Uh Oh

[SS4EVER]

Originally Posted by Mblock66

Again this may be a decent option for the V6 but I just don't get the logic on why people would even consider this route?

It will cost you more to put on a turbo or blower on the V6 and lose your warrenty then it would to just buy the SS with a full coverage. On top of which the SS will still be putting more power to the wheels stock then the V6 with FI.

Stock LS3 vettes have put down as much as 400 whp. Most are in the 390-400 range. So lets just say that the camaro will but down about 385 stock. The V6 will put down at best 270 probably more like 260. There isn't much of a chance for that V6 with FI to safely get to 385 whp and if it does it would be at its limit.

that would be a 125 HP increase or 48% which i dont see happening.

I'm definitely not buying a V6 just to go and waste a lot of time and money to convert to F.I., after putting in all that $ to get the power of an SS where just getting an SS would have been clearly the logical route, no no...

But... If down the road let's say Procharge, or Vortech or whoever came out with a S/C kit that cost like 3k and gives 100-125hp. Then I could possibly see doing it...

The Blur also makes a good point. There's a lot of 350Z owners that spend 6-8k on turbo and twin turbo kits and get 400WHP, and 500hp. Something that's not for me, but may be for others...

[Mblock66]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

The V6 is a competitor in another class. Plus, the LLT motor will get better fuel efficiency and cost less to insure. It won't be hard to get another 100 horses out of the V6, so it can perform as well as a stock V8 if the parts and tuning are done properly.

The V6 can get over 400 hp if it is built properly. Just like a V8 build, it will need internals to be reworked to maximize performance and reliability. Putting that money into a V6 Camaro would be no different than a 350Z owner tuning it. They're even in the same class.

You could spend the same money on a V8, but you won't have the tuning budget to match. Depending on the driver, tuning past 400 horses may be more important than buying 400 horses and adding a couple of mods.

If I were a V6 or V8 owner, I'd be worried about meeting any future Camaro at the track. They can be built to be very powerful with less weight than a Camaro SS.

To me the 350Z owner doesn't have a choice. That is the top model they have to work with so they need to tune the crap out of that V6. In our case the V6 owners could have bought a fully warrentied V8 with way more power and never had to touch the car. You usually tune the top models not the base.

For example the civic. 99% of the newly tuned civics will be the Si model. There is no point to modding out the base when it will not even get to the original Si specs.

The 330 BMW. Not worth spending all kinds of $ on Dinan mods when you could just buy the 335i which will run circles around a tuned 330.

Etc. There are cases of this across the board and across all price ranges. Even the sky.solstic or the cobalt. You would never in your right mind buy the base and try to juice it up to its SS or Redline partner, it wouldn't make sense.

So in my eyes I just don't get why there are so many people on here planning on buying the V6 camaro and modding it out to try to be this beast of a car when the SS is right there for probably less money, 100% warrentied, and minimal difference in insurance.

An intake or a cat back to make it "your own" sure I can agree with that. But putting THOUSANDS into the V6 is just silly when the SS is staring at you.

It will take a lot of mods and power to get the V6 6.1 0-60 to the project 4.4-4.5 0-60 of the SS ......... 1.6 seconds off a 0-60 is a TON of power needed

[BowtieGuy]

Originally Posted by Mblock66

To me the 350Z owner doesn't have a choice. That is the top model they have to work with so they need to tune the crap out of that V6. In our case the V6 owners could have bought a fully warrentied V8 with way more power and never had to touch the car. You usually tune the top models not the base.

For example the civic. 99% of the newly tuned civics will be the Si model. There is no point to modding out the base when it will not even get to the original Si specs.

The 330 BMW. Not worth spending all kinds of $ on Dinan mods when you could just buy the 335i which will run circles around a tuned 330.

Etc. There are cases of this across the board and across all price ranges. Even the sky.solstic or the cobalt. You would never in your right mind buy the base and try to juice it up to its SS or Redline partner, it wouldn't make sense.

So in my eyes I just don't get why there are so many people on here planning on buying the V6 camaro and modding it out to try to be this beast of a car when the SS is right there for probably less money, 100% warrentied, and minimal difference in insurance.

An intake or a cat back to make it "your own" sure I can agree with that. But putting THOUSANDS into the V6 is just silly when the SS is staring at you.

It will take a lot of mods and power to get the V6 6.1 0-60 to the project 4.4-4.5 0-60 of the SS ......... 1.6 seconds off a 0-60 is a TON of power needed

QFT.

However, the point I think others are trying to make with regards to the V6 modification are more long term plans. Maybe they don't have to money to get the SS at the time with higher gas and insurance, but 50,000 miles later they have a little spare cash to put into the V6. People do this all the time, especially with imports. They buy the base model for whatever reason then start dumping cash into it. You should see some of the people who own 2.2L Cobalt LS and LT's. Plus who knows? Maybe some people want the challenge of building a monster V6.

[Mblock66]

I guess.... I am not claiming to be the richest man ever, far from it lol. But I wouldn't even look at this car if I couldn't get the SS. (THIS IS JUST ME)

I would always hate myself for not figuring out a way to buy the SS and would never truely be happy with my base model, especially when I saw an SS on the road. It is only a few grand difference between the two models, if you can afford a new V6 and you can't afford a new SS you probably should be looking at a Kia.

I am in finance and the difference over 48 months or whatever you want to term the loan for 28k/29k vs 22k/24k is peanuts. Unless you are totally happy with the V6 as is and feel 300 HP is enough and you have no plans to mod the car at all then I am cool with owning a V6. But most all of us that are spending time on these boards are enthusiests, not everyday buyers. And with all the threads on modding the V6 it boggles me. I think some of the younger guys who may not be able to afford much don't understand how little the payments will differ between these two models.

Another option for guys who can't afford as much would be instead of purchasing a V6 LEASE the SS. I bet it is actually a bunch cheaper only monthly payments. Then you can give it back in 36 months for the Z28 when it drops

[SS4EVER]

Originally Posted by Mblock66

To me the 350Z owner doesn't have a choice. That is the top model they have to work with so they need to tune the crap out of that V6. In our case the V6 owners could have bought a fully warrentied V8 with way more power and never had to touch the car. You usually tune the top models not the base.

I would agree with you there.

Originally Posted by Mblock66

For example the civic. 99% of the newly tuned civics will be the Si model. There is no point to modding out the base when it will not even get to the original Si specs.

Umm not actually. Most of the B18 equipped civics (we're talking mid-late 90's civics) are in fact not all modded Si's... Hardly actually... Even the EX, & DX,'s are modded, and some very heavily I might add. Just depends on which V-TEC the car came with.

But if we're talking current gen Civic Si.. then yeah...

Originally Posted by Mblock66

There are cases of this across the board and across all price ranges. Even the sky.solstic or the cobalt. You would never in your right mind buy the base and try to juice it up to its SS or Redline partner, it wouldn't make sense.

There's a 5k+ difference in price between the Solstice, and Solstice GXP. For 4k you can buy a Hahn Stage III turbo kit, and you're making pretty much 400hp... In order to do that for the Solstice GXP the car starts @28k, plus the cheapest turbo swap kit is like 2k. Which is going to cost more to get more power out of? It's not the top model...

Again just some exceptions. As far as the Cobalt goes... Well if a SS/NA dumps a couple grand into a turbo kit, they are making more power then a stock SS/SC that was about 2-3k more. Now with the SS/TC... Yeah a 2.4 Cobalt, or a 2.2L is going to have to do quite a bit more to match them...

[BowtieGuy]

Originally Posted by SS4EVER

Well if a SS/NA dumps a couple grand into a turbo kit, they are making more power then a stock SS/SC that was about 2-3k more. Now with the SS/TC... Yeah a 2.4 Cobalt, or a 2.2L is going to have to do quite a bit more to match them...

My poor little 2.4. I want to put in the Hahn Turbo for that easy 290+ horsepower. But since I'm saving for a 5th gen I don't think that will happen. We'll have to see how finances turn up.

[SS4EVER]

Originally Posted by Mblock66

I guess.... I am not claiming to be the richest man ever, far from it lol. But I wouldn't even look at this car if I couldn't get the SS. (THIS IS JUST ME)

I would always hate myself for not figuring out a way to buy the SS and would never truely be happy with my base model, especially when I saw an SS on the road. It is only a few grand difference between the two models, if you can afford a new V6 and you can't afford a new SS you probably should be looking at a Kia.

I am in finance and the difference over 48 months or whatever you want to term the loan for 28k/29k vs 22k/24k is peanuts. Unless you are totally happy with the V6 as is and feel 300 HP is enough and you have no plans to mod the car at all then I am cool with owning a V6. But most all of us that are spending time on these boards are enthusiests, not everyday buyers. And with all the threads on modding the V6 it boggles me. I think some of the younger guys who may not be able to afford much don't understand how little the payments will differ between these two models.

Another option for guys who can't afford as much would be instead of purchasing a V6 LEASE the SS. I bet it is actually a bunch cheaper only monthly payments. Then you can give it back in 36 months for the Z28 when it drops

That's how I was with the Cobalt... I would have never looked into the Cobalt until the SS/SC came out. Same applies if I get another one. It's the SS Turbocharged or bust...

However personally, as much as I would love to get the Camaro SS. Due to the fact that whatever car I get next has to be my daily driver, there's no way I can afford the gas on the V8, so it wouldn't be practical for me. Now if it was a 2nd car... Definitely...

But I'll happily settle for the V6... for now...

Yeah. I looked into the lease vs buy when I got the SS/SC and there was quite a bit difference. I ended up leasing it and I'm glad I did....

But the Camaro will be purchased...

Originally Posted by BowtieGuy

My poor little 2.4. I want to put in the Hahn Turbo for that easy 290+ horsepower. But since I'm saving for a 5th gen I don't think that will happen. We'll have to see how finances turn up.

I know someone that has a turbo on their 2.4 and it's much quicker than my SS/SC... I was planning on jumping right into the SS/TC after my lease ends, but I'm going to see if the Camaro can pan out for me first...

[Mblock66]

I dunno about the solstic argument. By the time you buy the kit, have it installed, then have it tuned I bet you are in the 4-5 grand area. They are only 4 grand apart in price at invoice picing which is what they were offereing me.

So maybe bolting on a turbo to the base car would get you a few more ponies then a stock redline but it would still cost you the same and you would lose your warrenty. (Not that you wouldn't if you modded the Redline) I am just saying, if you want a bit more juice it isn't that much more. And you can always lease if you don't drive a gazillion miles a day.

I would also be careful about the fuel argument between the SS and the V6 too. Vettes get 30+mpg hwy with the ls3 now. Yes they have a better drag coef but other then that it is the same trans and same engine. So I would think with a light foot you could get 28 mpg in 6th at 70 mph. With the V6 maybe you could get 30. To me 2 mpg is like nothing. I believe both are tuned for 93 octane too I could be wrong there but I think the DI V6 needs 93 (or recommended) so there is no savings there either. 2 mpg is about 34 miles on a full tank (using only hwy mileage here) which is about $4 (premium is $3.61 here). So since i fill up once ever 12-14 days. $4 is so worth it.


* Note - I am totally not trying to be a negative nancy when I post. I hope no one takes it that way. I am just trying to bring up opinions and points that people may not have thought of and maybe help those decide between V6 and SS. More people will opt for the V6 and I know this but most everyone that take the time to post on this board KNOWS they want an SS at heart. I say go for it. Lease it if you have to and save over buying a V6 and put a smile on that face

[SS4EVER]

Originally Posted by Mblock66

I dunno about the solstic argument. By the time you buy the kit, have it installed, then have it tuned I bet you are in the 4-5 grand area. They are only 4 grand apart in price at invoice picing which is what they were offereing me.

So maybe bolting on a turbo to the base car would get you a few more ponies then a stock redline but it would still cost you the same and you would lose your warrenty. (Not that you wouldn't if you modded the Redline) I am just saying, if you want a bit more juice it isn't that much more. And you can always lease if you don't drive a gazillion miles a day.

I would also be careful about the fuel argument between the SS and the V6 too. Vettes get 30+mpg hwy with the ls3 now. Yes they have a better drag coef but other then that it is the same trans and same engine. So I would think with a light foot you could get 28 mpg in 6th at 70 mph. With the V6 maybe you could get 30. To me 2 mpg is like nothing. I believe both are tuned for 93 octane too I could be wrong there but I think the DI V6 needs 93 (or recommended) so there is no savings there either. 2 mpg is about 34 miles on a full tank (using only hwy mileage here) which is about $4 (premium is $3.61 here). So since i fill up once ever 12-14 days. $4 is so worth it.

Yeah, I don't know whether it'll require premium or not. I read on the forums that it will only take regular unleaded, but I'm pretty sure in the CTS, since it is the same engine, the CTS does take premium, or at least mid-grade...

The Corvette not only has a better drag coefficient but it's 500-600lbs lighter. Which makes a big difference.

The Camaro is a lot heavier, so I'd expect it to not get anywhere near the same mpgs as the Corvette despite having the same power & drive train...

If it does, then I may just be surprised. Unless the V8 gets better than expected gas mileage then if the difference between the fuel mileage of the V6 vs V8 is marginal then why not get the V8?

All I know is if I do get one I'll be in a little bit of gas price shock seeing that I get 30+ on the highway and mid to high 20's city in my little supercharged 4cyl Cobalt. + the 11.6 gallon tank, hasn't cost me over $50 yet to fill up on premium yet...

[Mblock66]

Originally Posted by SS4EVER

Yeah, I don't know whether it'll require premium or not. I read on the forums that it will only take regular unleaded, but I'm pretty sure in the CTS, since it is the same engine, the CTS does take premium, or at least mid-grade...

The Corvette not only has a better drag coefficient but it's 500-600lbs lighter. Which makes a big difference.

The Camaro is a lot heavier, so I'd expect it to not get anywhere near the same mpgs as the Corvette despite having the same power & drive train...

If it does, then I may just be surprised. Unless the V8 gets better than expected gas mileage then if the difference between the fuel mileage of the V6 vs V8 is marginal then why not get the V8?

All I know is if I do get one I'll be in a little bit of gas price shock seeing that I get 30+ on the highway and mid to high 20's city in my little supercharged 4cyl Cobalt. + the 11.6 gallon tank, hasn't cost me over $50 yet to fill up on premium yet...

Haha yeah you will be in gas shock with either i am afraid. About the weight you are right that is another factor BUT since the V6 and V8 as so close in weight the argument still stands with the delta between the two. So it may not be 30 and 28. It may be 26 and 24 but the delta should still be like 2 mpg.

The thing is that the vette says 16-24 on the sticker but almost everyone reports getting 30+ on the highway

I estimate the camaro will say 16-21 for the SS (something like that) and still pull off 25-26 easy on the hwy.

[Mblock66]

delete

[Mr. Wyndham]

FYI: the 6-cylinder in the Camaro drinks regular-grade fuel. Premium is not even recommended.

and FYI (2): The V6 Camaro will put a smile on your face, too. See the disciples videos: they were ALL smiling...A more accurate way to say it would be "The SS will put a bigger smile on your face".

[scotchsride09]

Originally Posted by Mblock66

This may be true that the 335 has little to no spool and makes max tq at 2000 but holding to 5500 means it is dead up top. That is the problem with turbos you cannot get big power through the entire range its either small turbos for fast spool and quick takeoff or large single turbos for max kick but major bog down low.


Don't forget that these cars are created and designed from the factory with turbo setups making them much more resonsive and adaptive. You will not get the same effect when throwing a turbo on the v6 camaro as a stock 335 its just totally different.

Just FYI: the 335 is twin-turbo'd with two smaller turbos; to reduce the spool time; so; individually they are smaller turbos but together they equal one big one, boost-wise.

However: you are right about them being dead up top because of their size; they can't hold the high-power band.

And personally; I'd probably wait for a factory option on a S/C or turbo if I decided i wanted one anyway... I completely agree; it's much safer all around that way. My Frontier is factory 'charged and I love it... but I'd be scared if I'd done it myself; or even had someone else do it for me; only because of the simple fact that if it comes from the factory; it's all meant to go together. Putting it on yourself on equipment that wasn't meant for it is just a gamble to me.

But I honestly think I'd be perfectly fine with my 422-hp SS

[Mblock66]

Oh I understand the 335 and small twins. Single turbos will always outperform twins (especially sequential turbos) for overall massive HP at peak. This is why all the late 90's supra TT owners convert their cars to a single garret BB monster turbo.

The 335 is designed for lighting response off the line with little to no lag. With a tune alone they are incredible and will run 12's. However with those small snails they are sitting ducks on the highway

You will be amazed by the power of the Ls3 at 422. No one needs that much power, until about month 3 when well it could use a little better pickup (Intake) and month 5 when ya know it could use a little better breathing and some top end (Headers/Cat Back) then 1 year well she seems to have lost some punch (SC) lololol