[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The GT500 went for years straight in the S197 platform. Why suddenly change it especially if they knew the ZL1 was going to have only a 1 year break? That does not make sense. Even with the GT350(R) being available, it just doesn't make sense. But then again, these are reasons why I dislike Ford and the things they do.

You’re right. The GT500 was around pretty much throughout S197. I was only thinking about the 2013 - 2015 662 hp version and kinda ignored the 550 hp 2010 - 12. My bad. The 2015 S197 GT500 overlapped the S550 Mustangs, carrying the old design while the new design was available for sale in the lower trims. Kinda expect the same for the S550 GT500 selling even through the intro of the S650. And using the 2015-17 lights package instead of the 2017-21

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

With 4-5 years of development and if they had rollers out there back in 2015 then there should be a legit reason why they had to push their release back. Which is why I think they had to pull a rush job on the GT500.

I guess this is where we differ. I see it more as some form of triage to fix things that didn’t put it on level with the competition. Could have even been a melt / re-pour on some key elements, depending on what performance elements needed to improve. Somehow it seems that Ford didn’t see the 6th gen 1LE and ZL1 coming through as good as they did. I’m certain they are determined not to allow that to happen again. Hard to figure how that happened in the first place, since as I mentioned earlier in this thread, they buy the same forecast info I was buying for GM at the time. I’ve heard things about transmission readiness, but I haven’t been able to confirm them so anything I say would be totally speculative. But if what I heard is true, the car has been ready for quite some time, but the transmission timing is making them wait to launch.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

Sort of disappointing that the Challenger RedEye doesn’t offer a manual, but not really surprising.

As far as the times, I expect a Red Eye to get into the 10.7s and a GT500 with an auto (dct or 10sp) to be at least that fast..

The last GT500 touched 11.5s with a manual and a lot less power than the new one is going to roll out with.

Had the 13/14 GT500s been equipped with one of these fancy new A10s it would have run low 11s, this new 500 will surely be faster.

[72MachOne99GT]

Sort of-exactly what I’m thinking too.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I guess this is where we differ. I see it more as some form of triage to fix things that didn’t put it on level with the competition. Could have even been a melt / re-pour on some key elements, depending on what performance elements needed to improve. Somehow it seems that Ford didn’t see the 6th gen 1LE and ZL1 coming through as good as they did. I’m certain they are determined not to allow that to happen again. Hard to figure how that happened in the first place, since as I mentioned earlier in this thread, they buy the same forecast info I was buying for GM at the time. I’ve heard things about transmission readiness, but I haven’t been able to confirm them so anything I say would be totally speculative. But if what I heard is true, the car has been ready for quite some time, but the transmission timing is making them wait to launch.

I get what you're saying. But it seems like you're reinforcing my point. If the GT500 was rolling around in 2015, and if Ford knew about the ZL1, then they should have been prepared for it. But it seems that we both feel like Ford had to re-do things because the GT500 wasn't good enough. All the while they were also doing the Bullitt package, GT PP2 package, re-doing the entire GT altogether, and addressing the GT350(R) engine issues. All at the same time. So they pushed back the release on the GT500 two times. That to me sounds like they ran out of time (hence they had to push the release date back twice) and had to hurry to finish it so that it could be ready as a 2020 MY production car. And that in turn pushes the entire S550 platform back an entire year just so the GT500 can have 2 MYs of sales. So this whole thing sounds like a rush job if I ever heard one. Which again leads me to question exactly how well it will perform, how it's reliability will score, how refined and how much quality is put into it, and if Ford designed it completely without skimping out on things like coolers or tires while keeping the MSRP reasonable...which won't matter anyway because nobody will get one at MSRP.

As an example, if you're running late to be somewhere, you don't just casually stroll up all willy nilly. You tend to look like you were rushing to get there. Ford did not have enough time to develop the GT500 for the original release date or the second release date. And now they finally are releasing it. But is it because they HAVE to release it? Like, either shit or get off the pot? Or is it truly ready? I do not think it is truly ready to do everything Ford would have liked it to do and it won't. It will beat the ZL1 in the quarter mile. Not by much. And that will be about it. Will that satisfy their fans? I doubt it. Especially because of all the crap I've been talking this past year and a half, I bet a lot of people would love to wave it in my face even tho it doesn't matter to me and that I fully expect it to be faster. LOL!!But at the very least it'll finally put Ford up with the heavy hitters and that should be enough even if it doesn't dominate the field.

One thing I do expect is that Ford learns their lesson and stops with end of the Gen 2 MYs only nonsense. FCA nor GM does that nonsense and it is stupid. The GT500 should be available just like the Hellcats, Redeyes, and ZL1s are...on a consistent basis.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by newmoon

If the 500 has an auto it very well may run the number. We saw what the A10 did for the GT and ZL1 picking up over a half second over the manual versions.

The M6 ZL1 is further handicapped by the GM built in manual V8 bog. Owners often have trouble breaking into the 11s with a 3850 pound 650 HP M6 car. There is also a slight built in A10 bog. Now with DRs on mine I definitely feel it at the line.Even on DRs a stock ZL1 has trouble getting under a 1.7 60'.

While a very few stock ZL1s have recorded 10s and low 11s, most stock A10 ZL1s run 11.4-11.6 with just a little seat time. That is a real world time for the Z. GM does say there is as launching sweet spot that can avoid the bog, so that elusive launch can explain the disparity in the numbers. Also there are parts of the stock tune that can put the MPH all over the place, especially with a Rotofab.

For sure the new GT500 will best these numbers.

Looking forward to the release and seeing the GT500 in the metal. I will have to step up my ZL1 game to keep up.

[BlaqWhole]

From what I understand, the bogging issue has been dealt with on the 19 M6 ZL1s. As far as the A10s are concerned, I have never once noticed any bogging on mine. If it is there then it is barely detectable and has virtually no impact on quarter mile times. I'm pretty sure GM addressed it on the 19s to give it a better shot against the GT500. If Ford built the GT500 correctly without cutting corners then I think the manual versions of each car will be good races to watch. My money is on the ZL1 pulling thru tho. Mainly because over the past couple decades we have seen the Camaro and Corvette take on cars that were way more expensive and, often times, offered way more performance, and still came out on top. So beating the ZL1 won't be a cake walk and that is more than completely obvious. My money is on the ZL1 being the best bang for the buck and beating the GT500 around a track with the M6 versions being pretty much a wash in a straight line.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And Chevy is gonna steal Ford's thunder, lol!! With the C8 coming out, if it offers crazy performance (which it will) and can be had without markups (which it will) then this will be an alternative for people who refuse to pay markups on the GT500. I can see the standard C8 offering enough shattering performance to keep up with the GT500 while still having full options. And then we'll see another Z06 and ZR1 on top of that along with the 7th Gen Camaro. I predict a win for Chevy in the 7th Gen just like the 6th Gen!!

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/20...BCsIY1vlyIXF1Q

Blaq if you think the first ever mid engine corvette will be had at launch without mark ups, can I have some of what your drinking lol. A mid engine vette has been talked about since the late 60searly 70s and its finally happening. If I was a betting man, I would feel confident that the first ones will have markups. How fast will that die off, not sure but I can almost guarantee you the first mid engine vettes will get marked up.

Originally Posted by angryBits

Except I think the C8 is still a couple years away -- at least for a Z06/ZR1 version.

GT500 will have it's day. Ford is pretty good at the numbers game. The car will be absolutely excellent for bragging rights which is what 90% of consumers in this particular market care about (IMO).

You know, if you ask 1000 people: (Not based on any facts)
900 of them have heard of a Mustang and Camaro.
750 of them know what a "Shelby" GTxxx is.
50 (probably less) know what a ZL1 is, let alone a ZL1 1LE.

Chevy is pretty stupid with their "monikers". Too many BS three letter codes nobody cares. Most people you talk to only know "Camaro" and won't hear anything beyond that whether it be RS, SS, RS 1LE, SS 1LE, ZL1, ZL1 1LE... wtf.

My point is, most people buy the GT500 because they know what it is.

I think thats a good thing. I prefer to have the car that you don't see every day.

People know the Shelby name, it practically markets itself.

Originally Posted by hotlap

I don’t necessarily disagree but GT350 or GT500 isn’t any more distinctive than ZL1, 1LE, ...

People know what a GTxxx is because of a chicken farmer’s success in making them perform on a road course for two years and 50 years worth of marketing.

Agree, people know the Shelby name, that is always placed infront of GTXXX.

Originally Posted by hotlap

I get C&D, R&T, Automobile and Hot Rod and don’t follow bellwethers of automotive journalism like Popular Mechanic and Cars.com. Good to know.

Impressive that Cars.com also had the GT PP and original Hellcat press hero runs at Great Lakes Drag Away. That’s were I go and never considered it a great track. Then again, I beat all the published times in my 16 SS there so maybe it’s not all that bad.

GLD can be a mysterious track. that is where I always had my best times, but the track prep is the key. If they had a big even the night before, or are having a big event later that night, the track prep can be awesome. If it's just test n tune or nothing big going on, it's like they do the bare minimum of prep work. Even knowing that, I prefer GLD over Byron, Cordova or even Route 66(that is because 66 is almost to strict with the rules).

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I wouldn't say Ford had 3-4 years to develop the GT500. I think it was more like a year and a half at this point. Ford didn't foresee anything like the ZL1 coming and I believe they were completely fine with keeping the GT350 and GT350R around. In fact I bet they thought the Shelbys would beat anything GM was going to put out. Then GM slapped them with the SS 1LE, the ZL1, and the ZL1 1LE. That had them like "oh shit" and they started scrambling to get something out that can beat the ZL1. On top of trying to fix the issues with the Shelbys, re-do the GT, build the PP2 and then put out the Bullitt I don't think they had 3-4 years to work on the GT500. At least not the entire time. So I think we'll see an unfinished unrefined product that will cost much more than a ZL1 but might, just might, beat it at something. What that something is could be anyone's guess.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I firmly believe, Ford did not anticipate the Alpha Camaro being as good as it is. What was it that Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth? Ford got punched in the mouth. I think they got caught off guard with just how good the alpha camaro was/is. I have said it before I don't think they expected the 44K SS 1LE to perform like the outgoing 76K Z/28. I think it caught a lot of people of guard and shame on them for being short sighted and bravo GM for doing it right.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The “normal” Ford schedule would have the S197 GT500 launch as the last variant just before the S550 launch. That happened. Then it would have the GT350 or some other performance variant launch a year into the S550. That happened. Then I would have expected the GT350 to run 2 or 3 years before going dark and giving way to the GT500 as the last variant of S550. In the meantime, Ford launched Bullitt and kinda strung out the PP2 rollout longer than one would expect. Somewhere along the way they likely re-assessed the GT500 program and determined it needed revision. Maybe the result wasn’t considered a strong enough answer to ZL1 or Hellcat / Redeye. Maybe there were development issues with one or more of the major systems? I’ve heard both as reasons for delay. So GT350 winds up carrying on for an additional 1-1/2 to 2 years while GT500 gets sorted out. It wouldn’t be the first or last time a performance vehicle got delayed.

C8? Some say that the idea of ME Vette was s’posed to have happened with C7. I won’t offer an opinion on that, but it obviously didn’t happen. So then it is apparently going to happen for C8. But a 6-month delay in that program has already been announced. Likewise, Ford has already stated that S650 will be a 2022 program. That’s at least a year later than what the industry would have expected. Delays happen.

What he said ^

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You’re right. The GT500 was around pretty much throughout S197. I was only thinking about the 2013 - 2015 662 hp version and kinda ignored the 550 hp 2010 - 12. My bad. The 2015 S197 GT500 overlapped the S550 Mustangs, carrying the old design while the new design was available for sale in the lower trims. Kinda expect the same for the S550 GT500 selling even through the intro of the S650. And using the 2015-17 lights package instead of the 2017-21



I guess this is where we differ. I see it more as some form of triage to fix things that didn’t put it on level with the competition. Could have even been a melt / re-pour on some key elements, depending on what performance elements needed to improve. Somehow it seems that Ford didn’t see the 6th gen 1LE and ZL1 coming through as good as they did. I’m certain they are determined not to allow that to happen again. Hard to figure how that happened in the first place, since as I mentioned earlier in this thread, they buy the same forecast info I was buying for GM at the time. I’ve heard things about transmission readiness, but I haven’t been able to confirm them so anything I say would be totally speculative. But if what I heard is true, the car has been ready for quite some time, but the transmission timing is making them wait to launch.

Agreed ^ I think that is most likely the cause. AS Blaq has poointed out, other cars are either handicapped or not as good as they could be. They have just been band aiding little performance upgrades and I think it is beacuse GM punched them in the mouth with just how good the alpha camaro is.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I get what you're saying. But it seems like you're reinforcing my point. If the GT500 was rolling around in 2015, and if Ford knew about the ZL1, then they should have been prepared for it. But it seems that we both feel like Ford had to re-do things because the GT500 wasn't good enough. All the while they were also doing the Bullitt package, GT PP2 package, re-doing the entire GT altogether, and addressing the GT350(R) engine issues. All at the same time. So they pushed back the release on the GT500 two times. That to me sounds like they ran out of time (hence they had to push the release date back twice) and had to hurry to finish it so that it could be ready as a 2020 MY production car. And that in turn pushes the entire S550 platform back an entire year just so the GT500 can have 2 MYs of sales. So this whole thing sounds like a rush job if I ever heard one. Which again leads me to question exactly how well it will perform, how it's reliability will score, how refined and how much quality is put into it, and if Ford designed it completely without skimping out on things like coolers or tires while keeping the MSRP reasonable...which won't matter anyway because nobody will get one at MSRP.

As an example, if you're running late to be somewhere, you don't just casually stroll up all willy nilly. You tend to look like you were rushing to get there. Ford did not have enough time to develop the GT500 for the original release date or the second release date. And now they finally are releasing it. But is it because they HAVE to release it? Like, either shit or get off the pot? Or is it truly ready? I do not think it is truly ready to do everything Ford would have liked it to do and it won't. It will beat the ZL1 in the quarter mile. Not by much. And that will be about it. Will that satisfy their fans? I doubt it. Especially because of all the crap I've been talking this past year and a half, I bet a lot of people would love to wave it in my face even tho it doesn't matter to me and that I fully expect it to be faster. LOL!!But at the very least it'll finally put Ford up with the heavy hitters and that should be enough even if it doesn't dominate the field.

One thing I do expect is that Ford learns their lesson and stops with end of the Gen 2 MYs only nonsense. FCA nor GM does that nonsense and it is stupid. The GT500 should be available just like the Hellcats, Redeyes, and ZL1s are...on a consistent basis.

I think what Martin was saying, is Ford had the car in the works then got floored with how good the Camaro was and had to go back to the drawing board with the 500.

[Bluecyclone]

I like the "Chicken Farmer" remark above, thanks for the laugh. Carry on.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

From what I understand, the bogging issue has been dealt with on the 19 M6 ZL1s. As far as the A10s are concerned, I have never once noticed any bogging on mine. If it is there then it is barely detectable and has virtually no impact on quarter mile times. I'm pretty sure GM addressed it on the 19s to give it a better shot against the GT500. If Ford built the GT500 correctly without cutting corners then I think the manual versions of each car will be good races to watch. My money is on the ZL1 pulling thru tho. Mainly because over the past couple decades we have seen the Camaro and Corvette take on cars that were way more expensive and, often times, offered way more performance, and still came out on top. So beating the ZL1 won't be a cake walk and that is more than completely obvious. My money is on the ZL1 being the best bang for the buck and beating the GT500 around a track with the M6 versions being pretty much a wash in a straight line.

Where has the manual bog issue been dealt with, do you have a link? Also the bog issue with the A10 I doubt would be noticeable with just normal street driving, what Fraxum is referring to is the inability of A10s even equipped with DRs to break the low 1.70s or 1.60s 60' times, while similar HCs hit 1:60s and even 1:50s equipped with DRs. It seems the ZL1 nannies limit this, requiring a tune to override.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Blaq if you think the first ever mid engine corvette will be had at launch without mark ups, can I have some of what your drinking lol. A mid engine vette has been talked about since the late 60searly 70s and its finally happening. If I was a betting man, I would feel confident that the first ones will have markups. How fast will that die off, not sure but I can almost guarantee you the first mid engine vettes will get marked up.

I'm certainly not drinking anyone's Kool-Aid. Regardless of how long it's been rumored, talked about, wished for, whatever, I don't think a standard Vette is going to be marked up simply because it is mid-engine. In fact I personally doubt we'll even see this mid engine Vette for a while. When it does I think it'll be a specialty version (like the Z06 or ZR1). In that case it might command a mark up but that will be due to it's status kinda like how this current ZR1 has markups. It certainly won't be $20K markups. All of this remains to be seen. But like I said, if it does have a markup, it'll be due to it being a specialty Vette if in fact it does arrive and actually is a specialty version.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think you hit the nail on the head. I firmly believe, Ford did not anticipate the Alpha Camaro being as good as it is. What was it that Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth? Ford got punched in the mouth. I think they got caught off guard with just how good the alpha camaro was/is. I have said it before I don't think they expected the 44K SS 1LE to perform like the outgoing 76K Z/28. I think it caught a lot of people of guard and shame on them for being short sighted and bravo GM for doing it right.

Agreed ^ I think that is most likely the cause. AS Blaq has poointed out, other cars are either handicapped or not as good as they could be. They have just been band aiding little performance upgrades and I think it is beacuse GM punched them in the mouth with just how good the alpha camaro is.

I think what Martin was saying, is Ford had the car in the works then got floored with how good the Camaro was and had to go back to the drawing board with the 500.

I was more talking about whether the GT500 will be ready for combat. I don't think it will be. Did Ford have GT500 test mules running around back in 2015? It is evident that they did. But that does not mean they have been working on them all this time. I think the plans got side tracked as Ford had to deal with other projects...like re-building the GT, introducing the PP2, trying to get the Bullitt out so they could have another higher performance car out to hold people over, addressing the GT350 issues, and then having to address the issues that came with the Gen III Coyote engine. By the time they actually got to working on the GT500 they realized they needed more time. And then more time. And now the S550 is extended another year. And we're at the point where they HAVE to release it. It doesn't seem to me like they got to the point where they're happy with the performance and went ahead and released it. It's more like it's either gonna get released now or never and never is not an option. Which goes back to when I said the GT500 seems like a rush job.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Where has the manual bog issue been dealt with, do you have a link? Also the bog issue with the A10 I doubt would be noticeable with just normal street driving, what Fraxum is referring to is the inability of A10s even equipped with DRs to break the low 1.70s or 1.60s 60' times, while similar HCs hit 1:60s and even 1:50s equipped with DRs. It seems the ZL1 nannies limit this, requiring a tune to override.

I don't have a link. That is why I said "from what I understand". I've seen it mentioned in talks on other threads in this forum, other forums, and on FB groups/pages that the bog issue was dealt with on the 19s and up. I never commented or offered any opinions in those threads because it doesn't matter to me.

I think you and others on here discredit the ZL1 a bit too much. There are ZL1 owners who have managed to pull low 11s and even high 10s bone stock. Just like there are HC owners who have managed to do the same on those stock P-Zeros like you and others like to mention. The difference is that the HC was built to do that and nothing else. The ZL1 was not built specifically to do it. So what is more impressive between a powerlifter who benches 800 pounds vs someone else who can bench the same amount of weight and run a marathon in under 3 hours? Plus any imagined bog issue with the A10 ZL1 is certainly no more of a hurdle than those tires on the Hellcat. So why is it that you guys think 11.1 is such a standard on the HC when it is clear that it isn't, when pro drivers have struggled to break 11.8, when 98% of owners are on DRs because they all say they can't launch on those tires but it is nigh impossible for A10 ZL1 owners when every test has them at 11.4 and when we have already seen them doing low 11s and high 10s? Just curious because you guys seem to be a bit biased against the ZL1 when it is just as capable...sorry, MORE capable than the Hellcat. Stock to stock, I'd put my money on the ZL1 beating a standard Hellcat any day. And I'd say it'll hold it's own against the much more powerful Redeye any day also.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I don't have a link. That is why I said "from what I understand". I've seen it mentioned in talks on other threads in this forum, other forums, and on FB groups/pages that the bog issue was dealt with on the 19s and up. I never commented or offered any opinions in those threads because it doesn't matter to me.

I think you and others on here discredit the ZL1 a bit too much. There are ZL1 owners who have managed to pull low 11s and even high 10s bone stock. Just like there are HC owners who have managed to do the same on those stock P-Zeros like you and others like to mention. The difference is that the HC was built to do that and nothing else. The ZL1 was not built specifically to do it. So what is more impressive between a powerlifter who benches 800 pounds vs someone else who can bench the same amount of weight and run a marathon in under 3 hours? Plus any imagined bog issue with the A10 ZL1 is certainly no more of a hurdle than those tires on the Hellcat. So why is it that you guys think 11.1 is such a standard on the HC when it is clear that it isn't, when pro drivers have struggled to break 11.8, when 98% of owners are on DRs because they all say they can't launch on those tires but it is nigh impossible for A10 ZL1 owners when every test has them at 11.4 and when we have already seen them doing low 11s and high 10s? Just curious because you guys seem to be a bit biased against the ZL1 when it is just as capable...sorry, MORE capable than the Hellcat. Stock to stock, I'd put my money on the ZL1 beating a standard Hellcat any day. And I'd say it'll hold it's own against the much more powerful Redeye any day also.

Looking at the 1/4 fast list in this forum I see (2) stated stock A10s running under 11-seconds, I see (10) stock with DRs running high 10s - 11:30s. Funny how the DR cars are no faster. This tells me there is a bog issue preventing the car from 60' ing any harder than 1.70s even with DRs. To go faster you are going to have to tune the car.

To argue the ZL1 problem is similar to the HCs tire issue is ridiculous, with the HC warranty stays in place as a set of DRs will put you solidly into the 10s, the ZL1 you will have to tune and void the warranty even with DRs. Redeye I don't know how they run yet as I haven't read any owner reviews or seen any passes with DRs in place.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Looking at the 1/4 fast list in this forum I see (2) stated stock A10s running under 11-seconds, I see (10) stock with DRs running high 10s - 11:30s. Funny how the DR cars are no faster. This tells me there is a bog issue preventing the car from 60' ing any harder than 1.70s even with DRs. To go faster you are going to have to tune the car.

To argue the ZL1 problem is similar to the HCs tire issue is ridiculous, with the HC warranty stays in place as a set of DRs will put you solidly into the 10s, the ZL1 you will have to tune and void the warranty even with DRs. Redeye I don't know how they run yet as I haven't read any owner reviews or seen any passes with DRs in place.

That is not indicative of a bog issue at all. It could be that the stock tires are that good that they are as close to DRs as it gets. If you've driven one then you could tell that these tires that come on the ZL1 are phenomenal. They're soo good that lots of people have bought a second set as opposed to upgrading to Michelins or other tires. There has not been any reports that I have seen of any bogging issue with the A10 ZL1. It sounds to me like one person here mentioned it as a possibility and you're running with it like it's a dead set fact. But don't take my word. I'm sure you won't anyway. Go and ask others if they've noticed any bogging in the A10 at all whether under hard launches, with DRs, DDing, light throttle, anything. I've done a lot of racing on closed race courses and there is no bog in mine at least.

[Mountain]

Just a quick note on GT500's and the S197...

1. The GT500 name returned in 2007 (last produced in 1970) and stayed in the Gen 1 S197 until 2009 (2005-2009), when the Gen 1 style ended.
2. GT500 continued with the Gen 2 S197 style for 2010-2012.
3. GT500 continued with the Gen 3 S197 style for 2013-2014.
4. There was never a 2015 GT500. The GT500 ended with the end of the S197 in 2014.


As for the GT500 and in response to the ZL1, I'm quite sure Ford planned to do a GT500 before the 2017 ZL1 came out.