[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Alain

I don’t think a more powerful Camaro will be a gen 6. If I Stated that anywhere else I retract that statement. We have probably seen all we are going to see out of this generation.

But, If GM is planning on keeping the Camaro alive then there is No way they will sit on their hands while Dodge and Ford are fighting it out with the HP numbers. The Camaro would die on its own if GM does that.

So unless they pull some sort of voodoo magic with the LT4 (which is already maxed out) then the next logic step is LT5.

They sat out last gen, what makes you think they will do anything different this time around?

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by v8

Ok here is my rational.
You are right, a LT5 does not suit the heritage of the Z/28. I do agree with you.

My rational is quite simple. Some people do not want to mods their cars and want to keep factory specs. Some people do not want a Mustang or Challenger (even if they are faster). We want a Camaro.

Add a box for 10k for an LT5 and nothing more. (Change the hood vent and make it fit) Don’t even call it a drag pack

From GM’s perspective they can sell ZL1’s with an LT4 or they can sell ZL1’s with an LT5. There would be little/no canabalizing from the vette as two different buyers. GM would still make their marigin on either car.

Who cares about the rest of the cars out there. The person who buys a Camaro with a LT5 wants it because it is cool. It may never get raced, but to the owner it’s an LT5 car.

Make your loyal GM customers/family happy.

^^^^^ This is an area GM greatly needs to improve on.
They would have to do something drastic to get me back on board. I was a die hard GM guy all my life until they stiffed me on a crappy piece of Chinese plastic for a dash panel.

Chevy gets laughed at frequently at a dragstrip. I hear and see it frequently. Once in a great while someone surprises with their newer Caddy or Camaro.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

If that’s all you got out of it, then something went wrong. I want a LT5 or at least more HP as much as the next guy. But I will not let that cloud my vision and just chant LT5 with everybody else. I will analyze it and respond based on findings. If you can tell me something useful that I don’t know about production, cost, selling, etc in the car business, I will pay you for your services.

By the way, you can easily prove me wrong. Just tell us Why GM should build such a car from their perspective. If it’s sound, there’s no further discussion necessary.

See below:

Originally Posted by Stealth7

GM should put LT5 in the 6th Gen Camaro for $5k upcharge because:

1. Camaro is a great platform!

2. RedEye.

3. Mustang GT 500 or whatever.

4. Already have the LT5.

5. GM can easily make LT5 fit.

6. LT5 not likely to go in other GM products.

7. C7 is done.

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

It's pretty simple. Performance enthusiasts are going to go where they feel like the highest performing car is for any given price range. The Hellcat and GT500 are direct competitors to the Z, so if those guys elevate their game and Chevy doesn't, then you'll see most every new car being sold in that category going to the competition, and instead of current Camaro owners upgrading to a new, improved Camaro, they will go elsewhere. Of course the Hellcat is more of a straight line performer, but it handles well enough for someone wanting a fast, cool car. The GT500 is in the exact same ballpark as the Z, so it can be a triple threat too, for ones like me that want a more well rounded car. I'm still holding judgment on whether the GT is the better option now or not. Gotta wait and see the exact specs that are still being withheld at the moment and what kind of price tag it's going to carry. Ford could very well price it out of comparison to the Z or the dealers will likely do that for a year or so. Who knows. If GM is smart, and I think they are, they will finally give us the drag upgrades they teased us with, and will keep most current Z owners from switching (as long as the upgrades are reasonably priced and maintain warranty like they said), maybe incorporate some of those parts and tunes into the 2020 Z standard, and give themselves more time to bring something bigger down the road.

Agreed.

While GM may not do it, deep down, Camaro fans don't want to continually be held back from the HP wars which we are way behind Mopar in, and about to lag behind Ford in.

And while I don't want a one-trick pony (which is why I am fond of the ZL1 and ZLEs), I would like a Camaro with enough HP to be competitive with the 700+HP GT500 and Redeye in a straight line while still delivering the great handling the Alpha platform is known for.

[v8]

Good point. See my post just before yours.

Sometimes maybe they can just throw us a bone so we can get what we want. Automotive manufactures spend so much trying to determine what customers want. Here we are saying what we want. Doesn’t have to be anymore deep than that. It would be extra $$ for Chevy and no one expects GM to lose money. Last Gen Z/28 was a package. Many people would have loved that LS7, but not the fancy brakes and stripped down package the Z/28 was.

I think a ZL1 with 2 engine options would go over well. If a customer wants the LT5 engine then pay up. Just don’t make it a package with a bunch of other things. The ZL1 already stops and handles great. It is great, but why not make it greater.

Also we as GM customers have bought many other GM vehicles because we like GM and like the history. Owning high performance GM vehicles leads us to eastablish relationships so when we need another family vehicle we head to the Chevy dealer. It’s not all just about the car. There is a big marketing picture and relationship that forms.

[v8]

This was in response to Shaffe’s Post so see my #112

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by v8

This was in response to Shaffe’s Post so see my #112

I agree I think it would be awesome. I would love to see them do it.

I am sure I come off as a debbie downer. I just go by past history as my guidline and they have never stuffed the ZR-1 Engine in anything other than a corvette which is why I wouldn't get my hopes up.

[v8]

You are right about the ZR- 1 engine not going into anything else. Detune it a bit if they had to. GM is always innovating and changing so just hoping, that’s all.

[greaser2]

Personally, I would evolve the ZL1 to the LT5, this would be the high horse Camaro and the ZL1 LE to the Z28 LT4 Track Camaro. done.

[~Jb]

Originally Posted by greaser2

Personally, I would evolve the ZL1 to the LT5, this would be the high horse Camaro and the ZL1 LE to the Z28 LT4 Track Camaro. done.

The Z/28 cannot be LT4.

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Some decent arguments however there are still a lot of flaws from GM's perspective...

The Camaro isn't "slow" enough for them to feel like it won't sell in comparison to the higher HP Dodge/Ford offerings. Point gone.

The $10k option wouldn't be enough. GM has lots of reliability and stress testing scenarios they have to meet. The clutch on M6 cars would be the first one that would have to be done for sure. Next up would be the fueling and likely cooling upgrades/changes. Plus you have clearancing needed for the dry sump setup. The ECM would have to be changed, I'm no expert, I assume that would be straightforward but keep in mind everything on these new cars from speedo, headlights, to torque limitations are controlled from the ECM. Plus, there's some other problems I went over in my previous post that would need to be addressed. Saying "good enough" is not in their rule book. So while if it was me or you with a project car, we may be able to slam an LT5 in it and massage a few things and call it a day. Whereas they may see a cobbled mess that needs revising for reliability standards. Here's another aspect, the LT5 gets worse gas mileage. Ever seen the gas mileage requirements that GM/all OEMs must hold across the board? Who knows if the 2-3 worse MPG (In the Z06 vs ZR1) translates to them having to shift products elsewhere. Do you see how these issues compound seemingly endlessly? Point gone. If it did happen, it simply would have to be more than $10,000.

Though us fans don't like seeing the Chevy's "behind" or laughed at at the drag strip (Which I fully believe and have seen) - GM doesn't really care that much. As long as it's selling and is competitive in 2/3 areas, which is an understatement about the ZL1, it's fine. Keep in mind, in their book here's what happened:

When the ZL1 came out it shattered muscle car track expectations, both ZL1 and ZL1 1LE putting out track times that put it in world class territories at bargain (Relative) prices.

It ran low 11s in the quarter. Besting all manufacturers claims of competitors.

It performed excellently on the road. Better real world traction than both competitors (GT500 and Hellcat, in 2016/17). Better brakes, tires, the list goes on.

Now, we're all sitting here, wagging our fingers at GM demanding they put the engine from the Best they've ever Build (The C7 ZR1) into it and not even thinking about back end costs or problems.

Catch the drift?

I do not mean to be "the debbie downer". I'm attempting to bring forth some, not even all, of the left out factors.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather GM spend their time and money building a lighter, stronger, faster, more efficient, dual clutch trans, aero dynamic, high HP Gen 7 Camaro than spend money on a platform that's been out for quite some time and is only (at worst) 3rd in the pack of 20+ cars in its class (American muscle car, 2 door coupe).

[greaser2]

Originally Posted by ~Jb

The Z/28 cannot be LT4.

Why not, They made it a 7L LS7

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

Some decent arguments however there are still a lot of flaws from GM's perspective...

The Camaro isn't "slow" enough for them to feel like it won't sell in comparison to the higher HP Dodge/Ford offerings. Point gone.

The $10k option wouldn't be enough. GM has lots of reliability and stress testing scenarios they have to meet. The clutch on M6 cars would be the first one that would have to be done for sure. Next up would be the fueling and likely cooling upgrades/changes. Plus you have clearancing needed for the dry sump setup. The ECM would have to be changed, I'm no expert, I assume that would be straightforward but keep in mind everything on these new cars from speedo, headlights, to torque limitations are controlled from the ECM. Plus, there's some other problems I went over in my previous post that would need to be addressed. Saying "good enough" is not in their rule book. So while if it was me or you with a project car, we may be able to slam an LT5 in it and massage a few things and call it a day. Whereas they may see a cobbled mess that needs revising for reliability standards. Here's another aspect, the LT5 gets worse gas mileage. Ever seen the gas mileage requirements that GM/all OEMs must hold across the board? Who knows if the 2-3 worse MPG (In the Z06 vs ZR1) translates to them having to shift products elsewhere. Do you see how these issues compound seemingly endlessly? Point gone. If it did happen, it simply would have to be more than $10,000.

Though us fans don't like seeing the Chevy's "behind" or laughed at at the drag strip (Which I fully believe and have seen) - GM doesn't really care that much. As long as it's selling and is competitive in 2/3 areas, which is an understatement about the ZL1, it's fine. Keep in mind, in their book here's what happened:

When the ZL1 came out it shattered muscle car track expectations, both ZL1 and ZL1 1LE putting out track times that put it in world class territories at bargain (Relative) prices.

It ran low 11s in the quarter. Besting all manufacturers claims of competitors.

It performed excellently on the road. Better real world traction than both competitors (GT500 and Hellcat, in 2016/17). Better brakes, tires, the list goes on.

Now, we're all sitting here, wagging our fingers at GM demanding they put the engine from the Best they've ever Build (The C7 ZR1) into it and not even thinking about back end costs or problems.

Catch the drift?

I do not mean to be "the debbie downer". I'm attempting to bring forth some, not even all, of the left out factors.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather GM spend their time and money building a lighter, stronger, faster, more efficient, dual clutch trans, aero dynamic, high HP Gen 7 Camaro than spend money on a platform that's been out for quite some time and is only (at worst) 3rd in the pack of 20+ cars in its class (American muscle car, 2 door coupe).

The LT5 and all associated powertrain have already been R&D'd - the only cost is to calibrate the A10 to the LT5 and the magneride unless they off the spool valve shocks already on the ZLE. Brakes are already done as well as noted before on the test mule and by the C7 Z06 w/Z07 package and ZR1.

So the costs are minimal for what could be a fantastic all-out Camaro.

[URBAN LEGEND]

Originally Posted by ~Jb

The Z/28 cannot be LT4.

So true. And Corvette must be round taillights and knight rider pop up headlights.

[v8]

Ok, I get all your points. Got it.

Here is my proposal. Make it a 15-20k option but do not add anything else that HAS to come with the engine. No packages. That was what killed the last Z/28. It was that you had to get the Z/28 package. You couldn’t get just the LS7.

So one could order a ZL1 and just tick off the box for the motor and a few other things they want. GM makes money and the car still sells as those that do not want to pay. “Those that say I’ll jusy pulley my LT4” can feel free to do so as a “relative bargain” will still be available. GM can make everyone happy. There was a 40K difference in the vette but a lot of carbon fiber and other things were included with that.

Pricing at maybe close to 20 will surly limit the amount of orders of LT5 Camaros but it will not be a fail because it’s not another trim level. It’s still a ZL1.