[Camarofan93]

Originally Posted by sherob

A Porsche 918 and a Range Rover Sport SVR sounds so too, but I wouldn't call them a "Muscle Car" either.

My car is a muscle car to me. I get why you gen 5 guys are so salty why couldn't they make the camaro so fast and sleek before you bought your gen 5? For the record I love the gen 5s, but their salty owners are embarrassing

[hotlap]

I met a group of gen5/6 owners by chance recently at the drags. We all were loving each other's cars.

I have owned at least one of gen2 - gen6 and loved them all. They do however keep getting better with each successive generation and my gen6 will be surpassed soon enough. Enjoy your ride for what it is.

Edit- from the new H2H

But what is past is prologue. These days, even the entry-level iterations offer up actual sporty good times. And the midgrade versions—Camaro SS and Mustang GT—can bloody the lip of Europe’s finest.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/...gt350r-review/

[Camarofan93]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I met a group of gen5/6 owners by chance recently at the drags. We all were loving each other's cars.

I have owned at least one of gen2 - gen6 and loved them all. They do however keep getting better with each successive generation and my gen6 will be surpassed soon enough. Enjoy your ride for what it is.

Agreed

[01pewterz28]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

Most gen 5 owners didn't wave back when I was in my 5th gen. Most of the 6th gen owners haven't waved back either.

This happened when the 5th came out and they did the same towards 4th gen owners.

[18LTLoveIt]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

That is laughably hypocritical. I can't count how many 5er threads have been started by owners who got their panties in a wad over after coming across a negative review or some random person calling their car slow, ugly, poorly designed, lame interior, poor visibility, horrible aerodynamics, or any of the million other typical insults that have been lobbed around at the 5th gen.

Not laughably hypocritical. I drive an LT and bought it in a convertible to GET RID OF THE STUPID back window that the coupes have. I have been all over Camaro5 in the last 6 months and have never heard 1 guy call another's car slow, ugly or poorly designed. We all agree that 5th Gen was a home run.

As far as speed goes, there has been some discussion on V6 vs V8, by the SS ZL1 gear heads. But us V6er are laughing, no panties in a bunch. I'd much rather pay 640.00 less for a set of tires, less insurance and the costs of performance mods. I bought my car because of it's style, 323HP was nice, coming from an 08 Mustang with 270HP. It's plenty fast when I need it.

Poor visibility, that wasn't corrected for 6th Gen either. Hah!

Lame interior, true muscle/pony cars aren't luxurious. I'm happy with my interior, don't need an electronic brake button, or a charging station in the back seat. My car has a unique interior with Katzkin Leather. It lightens up the otherwise dark interior. My BIL has a 2014 2SS and he said my car rode nicer, including better seats. That matters to me over how fast my car can go on a track.

[sherob]

Originally Posted by Camarofan93

My car is a muscle car to me. I get why you gen 5 guys are so salty why couldn't they make the camaro so fast and sleek before you bought your gen 5? For the record I love the gen 5s, but their salty owners are embarrassing

If you have a thin skin, are used to having an award handed to you for mediocrity, and are used to never having an opposing opinion given to you, then I guess it may seem "salty" or even "unfriendly" to you.

[gpskinzhut]

Originally Posted by 13LTLoveIt

Not laughably hypocritical. I drive an LT and bought it in a convertible to GET RID OF THE STUPID back window that the coupes have. I have been all over Camaro5 in the last 6 months and have never heard 1 guy call another's car slow, ugly or poorly designed. We all agree that 5th Gen was a home run.

As far as speed goes, there has been some discussion on V6 vs V8, by the SS ZL1 gear heads. But us V6er are laughing, no panties in a bunch. I'd much rather pay 640.00 less for a set of tires, less insurance and the costs of performance mods. I bought my car because of it's style, 323HP was nice, coming from an 08 Mustang with 270HP. It's plenty fast when I need it.

Poor visibility, that wasn't corrected for 6th Gen either. Hah!

Lame interior, true muscle/pony cars aren't luxurious. I'm happy with my interior, don't need an electronic brake button, or a charging station in the back seat. My car has a unique interior with Katzkin Leather. It lightens up the otherwise dark interior. My BIL has a 2014 2SS and he said my car rode nicer, including better seats. That matters to me over how fast my car can go on a track.

You're not following and yes it is laughably hypocritical. I've owned 2 5's. A '10 2LT/RS M6 hard top with an IPF supercharger and a host of other work done, and a '14 2LT/RS auto convertible that's still in my garage next to my '17. 4, 6, 8 whatever, I don't give a shit what engine you drive. I'm an enthusiast and appreciate them all.

The list I posted were ALL complaints or negative comments from OUTSIDE individuals or printed reviews that sparked whiny threads and/or comments by owners over the years. I never said 5ers were calling out each other's cars (unless you count the V8 snobs degraded the V6ers or the manual/auto stupidity). The point isn't your car, option set or power plant. The point is the C5 community has gotten just as ruffled when you say something negative. Ron even said as much earlier in this thread and he trolls over here constantly.

Your ongoing narrative that the C6 community is a bunch of over-sensitive nannies is a load. It's nothing to do with the generation. It's everything to do with enthusiasts of EVERY generation. If you're going to be an ass and go out of your way to degrade something that someone is passionate about, what kind of ****ing response do you expect to receive?

[Doc]

Okay. This discussion and definition has been discussed in previous older threads, but obviously it needs to be revisited.

Muscle Car. The term ‘muscle car’ goes back to the 1960’s when regular passenger sedans which were big and heavy, were given huge big block V8’s with gobs of horsepower and torque. They literally ‘muscled’ their way down the road in a straight line because of the brute power they had. However, that was all they could do. Forget turning or braking. Thus the reason why straight-line performance became the de-facto standard to judge a car’s performance, and why quarter-mile racing became so popular.

Sports Car. A sports car has traditionally (which goes back before the 60’s) been a two-seater. They also traditionally did not have huge motors with gobs of power and torque. In fact, most of them originated in Europe, where gas prices where considerably higher than in the United States. Sports cars typically had smaller engines, usually with 4 or 6 cylinders. Some of the high-performance European sports cars had 12 cylinder engines, but they were also small displacement compared to American engines. Sports cars created their performance through gearing. American passenger cars had 2 or 3 speed transmissions (usually automatic), while sports cars had 4 or 5 gears, and were almost universally manual transmissions. Sports cars also did more than just go in a straight line; in fact that wasn’t considered much of a measure of performance for a sports car at all. Their main performance consideration was handling. They had more sophisticated suspensions, and better brakes. A sports car required a higher level of driving skill, other than just mashing the gas pedal to the floor, and holding onto the steering wheel. Sports cars were generally more expensive, with the exception of the smaller British sports cars like Austin Healey, MGB, Triumph, etc. The big names in sports cars were Jaguar, Ferrari, Porsche, Maserati, and so on, with the Corvette being the lone American car that was considered a genuine sports car. Those class of cars had it all; power and handling. They were also quite a bit more expensive than what the average person could afford.

Pony Car. In 1964, Ford blew the market wide open when they came out with the Mustang. It was a standard 4 seat passenger car (basically a Ford Falcon I believe), with a ‘sporty’ body style on it. It was neither fast, nor did it have great handling. It was a huge roaring success. So much so, that GM came up with their own version, and in 1967 rolled out the Camaro. Whereas the first pony cars had small engines; the Mustang with a 170, and the Camaro with a 230 cubic inch 6 cylinder, it didn’t take long before the V8’s began to appear. Mustang with it’s 289 and famous Boss 302, and Chevy with their terrific 327 and 350 small block V8’s. The Chevy 302 was due to the requirements of the Trans Am racing series which Ford and Chevy competed in. Ford with the Boss 302, and Chevy with the Z/28. In the hands of Mark Donohue, the Z/28 won. This was followed quickly by big block V8’s; Mustang’s 390 and 428, and Camaro’s 396 and 427. Although they were still pony cars, they’d begun to mimic muscle cars through the use of big block V8’s, which is why the public began to think of them as also being muscle cars. With the exception of the Trans Am cars, they were all about straight-line performance; handling and braking were not an issue. With the bigger engines, they’d also begun to gain an extra gear, and the high performance models began using 4 speed manual transmissions.

It’s worth nothing, that the VAST majority of sales were for the lower power pony cars; not the more expensive and powerful models.

Now, fast forward to today and the 5th Gen Camaro. It was meant to invoke the retro look of the late 60’s Camaro, however that’s where the retro stopped. In every other way, it was completely different. It had power, handling, brakes, a 6-speed manual transmission, but it also had 4 seats. It was neither a pony car, nor a muscle car. It was in fact, a high performance Sports GT; smack in the middle of territory that used to be exclusive to the high performance sports GT’s of Europe. Except it didn’t cost 6 figures; an SS could be had in the mid to high $30,000’s. The 6 cylinder model, could be had in the low to mid $20,000’s. It was a huge, roaring success.

Just as it was in the 60’s, the cry for more power was heard in the land. A cry that all the manufacturers in this game are responding to. Once again, just as it was in the 60’s, the cost of that higher performance has pushed those models up where the bulk of their customer base isn’t. One of the buying factors is not only the cost of the car, but also the cost of the insurance. Are they great cars? Yes. Does everybody want one? Pretty much. Can everybody afford one? No. Is everybody buying them? No… and thus you see the results in the sales charts since the early years of the 5th Gen.

Chevy has painted themselves in a corner with the Camaro. They responded to what they heard their hard-core customer base saying, and delivered the best 4-seat high performance Sports GT America has ever made. However, that came at a price. Is it worth what it delivers? Without question. However, the model has now been pushed up price-wise, where the bulk of their customer base isn’t. The sales numbers, and months of inventory on the dealer lots tell the story.

They can’t go backwards and dumb down the Camaro just to increase sales. They have to at least keep it where it is performance-wise. It’s already a solid competitor in a very pricey arena, but it doesn’t cost what it’s real competition does. It also doesn't have the status image the competition has, which is a sales problem. What they need to do, in order to pull the higher price customer base into being a Camaro customer, is give this new Camaro a body style that is to die for. The 6th gen isn’t that body style, no matter what the loyalists who bought one say. It needs to deliver the looks; both outside and inside, that fit the performance category it can now compete in.

That brings us to the current sales dilemma however. The high performance Sports GT customer base, isn’t the bulk of the customer base where the big sales numbers are. In order for Chevy to reach that base again, they need a new pony car. One that looks hot, but doesn’t cost an arm-and-a-leg for the car and insurance.

I tricked my 5th gen up to where it’s virtually a Z/28. It has 500 hp, and I can’t even begin to use that performance on the street. I can’t imagine buying some of the newer cars with upwards to 800+ hp. A year and a half ago, I bought a 2016 Mazda 6 Sport, as a daily driver/commuter car for just under $22k. It’s been a terrific car. Even though it only has 184 hp, the 6-speed auto trans has been geared perfectly and the car feels much stronger than the hp would suggest. It has a beautiful interior, great dash layout, it’s quiet and comfortable. Around town with stop-and-go driving, I get 29-31 mpg depending on traffic. If Mazda can deliver that for that price, GM can too; if they want to.

They need to reinvent the pony car; a comfortable 4 seat passenger car; not high performance, but sporty with a hot looking body style, and interior. I know they can do it. Take a look at what the Buick design team has done with the Avista, both exterior and interior:





Even the Cadillac design team has done some nice concepts in the Ciana, again both exterior and interior:




I used to think GM had a designer problem, but after seeing what some of them have been able to do, I’m now beginning to think the problem may be management. Put the Avista and Ciana designers on the problem of coming up with a futuristic pony car, and I bet they would come up with a killer design. The problem would be if management has the guts to produce it. Why isn’t the Avista and Ciana on showroom floors? I’m neither a Buick or Cadillac fan, but I certainly might become one if those cars were available to buy.

[Corner carver]

Well said...
Just wanted to add that it's the design and looks of the 6th gen that turned my head; the addition of the turbo4 is what sealed the deal.
The 5th gen with the turbo4 would've been a no go and without the affordability and tunability turbo4 in the 6th gen it would've also been a no go (although alot harder to say no too IMO)

...so both of those decisions/directions at least counted for my sale

[Camarofan93]

Originally Posted by sherob

If you have a thin skin, are used to having an award handed to you for mediocrity, and are used to never having an opposing opinion given to you, then I guess it may seem "salty" or even "unfriendly" to you.

I'm completely happy with my car. I'm sure you are with yours we can just agree to disagree.

[Camarofan93]

Originally Posted by Corner carver

Well said...
Just wanted to add that it's the design and looks of the 6th gen that turned my head; the addition of the turbo4 is what sealed the deal.
The 5th gen with the turbo4 would've been a no go and without the affordability and tunability turbo4 in the 6th gen it would've also been a no go (although alot harder to say no too IMO)

...so both of those decisions/directions at least counted for my sale

Same here.i loved the 4th gen, 5th gen I test drove and it felt like a big boat, just too big and sluggish. 6th gen hit the nail on the head for me, this 2017 SS has been a blast

[Corner carver]

Originally Posted by Camarofan93

Same here.i loved the 4th gen, 5th gen I test drove and it felt like a big boat, just too big and sluggish. 6th gen hit the nail on the head for me, this 2017 SS has been a blast

I should say I also do like the 5th gen (old man had a 2nd gen) just didn't like it enough to buy is all. Got to drool over a 5th gen ZL1 (pre-redesign) last week as a guy I work with spotted me driving my 6th into the yard and he tracked me down to talk and check it out. Next day he brought in his ZL1...gorgeous car, awesome sound, loved it!...the interior left me wanting more, but that was it and at that the seats looked really nice!

[Corner carver]

The Zl1 owner (His name is Dave, so is mine and we both drive black Camaros lol) really seemed to like the 6th gen, he missed the side gills, but was in love with the interior of 6th... He was taken aback when I told him my little turbo (with the HD package) had 3 rads, oil cooler and trans cooler stock.

[Realist]

I like both the 5th and 6th Gen, hell ok I'm coming out of the closet and just going to admit it. I'm a camaroholic, there I said it, I do feel better, that's a load off my chest.

Over the years I've had a few 69's, an 85, 87, 89 (firebird), 97, 2000 and 13. Saving the pennies for a ZL1 now. In my eyes most any Camaro is cool, but it must have a v8 to really peak my interest.