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Old 04-18-2018, 06:11 PM   #1443
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Agree in general, perhaps in the 70s a 2 door coupe could pass as a family car but no soccer mom is going to even look twice at such cars and instead march right towards a whole platora of suv and cuv choices.
That ship has sailed a couple of decades ago and if anything it is still picking up steam. And thats why Porsche SUVs handily outsell all their cars bar none.
And thats no different at any other manufacturer these days. The market has changed completely and likely forever. Moreover power levels have gone up and an average driver is scared shitless of many cars these days. Many just keep them as Sunday cars and coffee rides to be driven in fair weather and very gingerly. Most dont use them as primary transportation but rather summer cars only. When i had my 81 z28 i drove it all year round. Very few if any folks do it anymore. Unless they have an awd Carrera.
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:12 PM   #1444
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Camaro should have just left it alone for us to live with this.


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Old 04-18-2018, 06:21 PM   #1445
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I don't think they should make the Camaro an everyday car and its not a family car, as much as some people want it to be its not . I don't think it was ever meant to be either .
Think everyday family car is a bit much of a stretch, but somewhat more in the direction of user friendly if there is a sliding scale so to speak. Chevrolet already has Corvette for their 2 seat coupe. But who knows what the grand plan is though with the mid engine Corvette coming down the road.
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:28 PM   #1446
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The camaro sells over 2-3 times as many cars as corvette does.

So ditch the corvette. Make a top tier camaro that has an interior made out of quality materials and first rate powertrain.

Then the normal lineup for the rest of us peasants.

Not only do you then sell more camaro's...but you're reducing product lines and saving money at the manufacturing level. Win!

Chevy's gonna have to ditch one of them and streamline, and the vette is never going to have the market that the camaro has ....so it's the obvious choice for the chopping block.

As far as looks go with the 2019. Meh, looks fine. At least it looks like they didn't do anything stupid that would fragment the aftermarket much.
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:01 PM   #1447
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I never said make it an everyday car. Make it a great looking car inside and out, and it will appeal to a wider customer base, which means more sales. Here's a pic from a 1970 Camaro marketing brochure from Chevrolet. They clearly intended it to be more than just a one-driver car.

That customer base is still out there, and it's far bigger than the forum enthusiast base. They can keep the lettered, hi-po models for the enthusiast. They just need a reborn base pony car with the kinds of looks that stop people in their tracks, and causes them to go look at them in the showroom. From the outside, the 6th gen looks cramped and uncomfortable, and that perception is enough to stop a lot of people from even considering it.
Clearly the refresh focused on softening the look of the base RS to appeal to a broader group. It looks significantly different than the SS now. That wasn’t the case with the 16-18 or the 5th. This car looks classy.
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:01 PM   #1448
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Originally Posted by Doc View Post
I never said make it an everyday car. Make it a great looking car inside and out, and it will appeal to a wider customer base, which means more sales. Here's a pic from a 1970 Camaro marketing brochure from Chevrolet. They clearly intended it to be more than just a one-driver car.

Attachment 930858

That customer base is still out there, and it's far bigger than the forum enthusiast base. They can keep the lettered, hi-po models for the enthusiast. They just need a reborn base pony car with the kinds of looks that stop people in their tracks, and causes them to go look at them in the showroom. From the outside, the 6th gen looks cramped and uncomfortable, and that perception is enough to stop a lot of people from even considering it.
I don't think the customer base is worth the compromise , mom and dad is not going food shopping with 2 kids then bring home 8 bags of groceries in a Camaro when there are 45 other crossovers and suvs on the market nowadays. Camaro works best as a second car/weekend car and they should build on that . Great picture of that 70 Camaro , i always loved that front chrome bumper on the non RS version.
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:24 PM   #1449
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Grey/Silver rear...

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Originally Posted by GrimReaperSS View Post
From GM Junkies Facebook page... For those interested in this new Grey/Silver color.

Attachment 930200

Attachment 930201
I do like the rear with this color
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:19 PM   #1450
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Clearly the refresh focused on softening the look of the base RS to appeal to a broader group. It looks significantly different than the SS now. That wasn’t the case with the 16-18 or the 5th. This car looks classy.
It does look classy and if i were in a market for a non track vert id buy it in a flash.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:24 PM   #1451
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Originally Posted by cellsafemode View Post
The camaro sells over 2-3 times as many cars as corvette does.

So ditch the corvette. Make a top tier camaro that has an interior made out of quality materials and first rate powertrain.

Then the normal lineup for the rest of us peasants.

Not only do you then sell more camaro's...but you're reducing product lines and saving money at the manufacturing level. Win!

Chevy's gonna have to ditch one of them and streamline, and the vette is never going to have the market that the camaro has ....so it's the obvious choice for the chopping block.

As far as looks go with the 2019. Meh, looks fine. At least it looks like they didn't do anything stupid that would fragment the aftermarket much.
No need to ditch the Vette as both cars share a lot of components. Just like the SS 1LE is pretty much a Vette GS with different body. Economies of scale go a long way towards profits especially in a motor dept id imagine. Also the 2 cars have very different price points and hence different client base by and large. I think the Camaro with a new Vette motor will be one sweet ride...
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:26 PM   #1452
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I think it had something to do with meeting regulation requirements for crash testing here in the U.S. Either it didn't pass, or they didn't have the time to do the expensive and very lengthy testing process in time for the car's release.



If you actually read what I originally wrote, I clearly stated the the Camaro would outperform the Giulia on the track. I also said it outperforms cars twice it's price. I've also said repeatedly that my point was about looks; inside and out. The pictures of the Giulia I posted were not the $80k model. They were in fact of the Ti, which starts at $42k. If Alfa can deliver a car with "nice and refined" looks for $42k, why can't GM? GM doesn't even have to pay import duties; the Alfa's are all made in Italy.

My point was never to say that the Giulia is equal in track performance to the Camaro at the same price. My point was all about looks. Looks matter to people; especially people paying $40k+ for a car. Not everyone is a narcissist; some just like beauty and style.

Look at the sales results of the 5th Gen. If it looks like something somebody wants, they'll buy it. When I first got my 5th Gen in August of 2009, it was like I was a rock star out in public. Nobody ever came up to me and asked "what is it?" Everybody knew what they were looking at. GM needs that kind of visual identity excitement again, or the Camaro will just become another chapter in the history books.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I happen to think the 6rh Gen is beautiful (at least in 1LE trim) in a menacing, means business, masculine way. I also think the interior is very nice. Again, it isn't as nice as a luxury car, but it isn't a luxury car nor does it pretend to be. I've owned an Infinti and a couple Mercedes which were very nice, but kinda boring. Very nice, luxurious, and sporty, but I bought those for a different purpose. I bought the Camaro for the supercar-like handling, technical acumen, menacing looks, brute force, sound, and fury of a V8 sports/muscle car not for a plush, leather laden, hand crafted, widget laden interior.

The 2019 refresh is polarizing, but there will be people who love it.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:41 PM   #1453
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For the same $50k, there's no comparison between the Camaro SS and the Giulia Ti. The Camaro has more power and would out-perform the Giulia on the track, but only because of horsepower. The steering and chassis of the Giulia is simply incredible.
If you're trying to tell me that the Giulia has a better chassis than the 6th gen, I'm not buying it. Show me some real factual data to prove this, or some reviews with a non-biased opinion. I'm sure it has a great chassis, but just because it's made by Alfa, doesn't mean it's better than the Alpha. See what I did there?

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I'd rather have the money spent on performance than expensive interior materials. When I hear people like Matt Farah complain about the plastic dash, I always wonder why it even matters? Do people touch their dash that often? I honestly think I only touch mine when I clean it. Who cares what it's made out of? Why does everything have to be wrapped in expensive leather or some exotic material? It's just a dashboard. The SS and 1LE are already expensive enough as it is.
If interiors were the only thing that people based buying their performance cars on, then the WRX and STI would have been long dead. Along with the Camaro, and the Mustang, and especially the Challenger. To me, the only parts that matter in quality are the points I touch. The steering wheel, shift knob, elbow rest pad... and etc.

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Giulia vs Camaro is not even a close comparison. The 1SS 1LE costs about $40k and can out perform cars that cost close to or at 6 figures. The high performance variant of the Giulia costs close to $80 grand. I can't afford an $80k pleasure vehicle but I can afford a $40k pleasure vehicle. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this category. There's nothing else available brand new that can touch the 1SS 1LE Camaro in the $40k price range. Trust me, I checked. If I could afford an $80k pleasure vehicle, I probably wouldn't buy a Camaro to be honest. For me and I'm sure others, the 1LE at least is the best car out there for my money hands down.

Sure, the Giulia may have a nicer interior and be more refined, but I'd expect that for $80k. For a car that can perform like and looks like an 80k car but costs half as much, I expect and am willing to accept some flaws.

The Camaro was never intended to compete for affluent buyers. It was intended and still is intended as a high performance car that blue collar and middle class folks could buy with a little saving and hard work. Sure, there is the ZL1, but that is a special, low volume version for the affluent buyer who is a true Camaro enthusiast. Even that has flaws because if it didn't, it would cost 100 grand and push it even further into a class of buyers that most likely wouldn't spend that amount on a Camaro.

This issue always comes up about the flaws, lack of high end materials and appointments... for goodness sakes, it's a Camaro not a BMW, not a Mercedes, and not an Alfa Romeo. The Camaro has come a long way and I happen to love the interior and workmanship especially considering the improvements made from just a few years ago. The performance is world class which is astonishing considering what the car is. They have to cut costs somewhere.
This would have been my response if I didn't see yours. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:03 PM   #1454
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Originally Posted by cellsafemode View Post
The camaro sells over 2-3 times as many cars as corvette does.

So ditch the corvette. Make a top tier camaro that has an interior made out of quality materials and first rate powertrain.

Then the normal lineup for the rest of us peasants.

Not only do you then sell more camaro's...but you're reducing product lines and saving money at the manufacturing level. Win!

Chevy's gonna have to ditch one of them and streamline, and the vette is never going to have the market that the camaro has ....so it's the obvious choice for the chopping block.

As far as looks go with the 2019. Meh, looks fine. At least it looks like they didn't do anything stupid that would fragment the aftermarket much.
It may not have the sales volume, but the Corvette is very high profit item for GM.
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:25 PM   #1455
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The 5th gen concept car was the vision of a single designer; it had nothing to do with committees, focus groups or polls. It wasn't perfect, but the moment I saw it I wanted one; it didn't have to 'grow' on me. It was a huge hit right out of the gate. Sangyup Lee, the original designer is no longer with Chevy.

What I'm seeing now is just confirmation of what I've felt has been going on ever since they did the first 'refresh'. This latest refresh to me, just illustrates the sad fact that the Chevy design department has no idea what to do with the Camaro. They have no vision of what a Camaro truly is or should be. The engineering team has delivered a spectacular performer; best high-performance sports gt America has ever produced. The body and interior however, just don't rise to the same level of brilliance.

I'm a Camaro fan. Blue Angel is still in my garage. It'll be 9 years now since I first picked it up after ordering it sight-unseen. I'd never driven one or seen one before I ordered it in May of 2009. I just knew I wanted it, and I've never regretted that decision. It pains me to see the design department floundering around with inconsistent, "I wonder if they'll like this?" attempts to modify the Camaro's looks and style.

Chevy's problem is they've priced the car into territory that has some seriously stiff competition. In September of last year, I bought a brand new Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Lusso. It's Monte Carlo Blue with a Crema interior that's a stunning combination of Italian leather and real walnut. It came with a 280 hp turbo 4, and a chassis that's flat-out the best I've ever experienced. The car was designed by a team of Ferrari and Maserati engineers, and developed and tested in Ferrari's development center and wind tunnel. Essentially, it's a 4 door Ferrari. The price? The base model starts at about $39k, and the one I got which has just about every option you can get, retailed for about $53k. Their top performer, the Giulia Quadrifoglio has the Ferrari V6 with 505 hp, goes 190 mph and starts at about $75k.

For the same $50k, there's no comparison between the Camaro SS and the Giulia Ti. The Camaro has more power and would out-perform the Giulia on the track, but only because of horsepower. The steering and chassis of the Giulia is simply incredible. However... the body and interior of the Giulia exudes refinement, class and style. Pictures don't come close to doing it justice. When you see one in person the styling radiates beauty; a beautiful Italian sculpted masterpiece, with consistent lines and styles from front to back, and inside too. This car clearly was designed by people who had a distinct idea and understanding of what a modern Alfa Romeo should look like and be. All Giulia's, even the base model, come with a carbon fiber driveshaft standard.

Just because the Giulia was designed by Ferrari and Maserati designers, that shouldn't make that much difference. A pencil and sketchpad costs the same no matter what you're designing. Chevy's problem is a lack of vision. They just don't know what to do with the Camaro, which is sadly starting to make it look like the 5th gen was a fluke; inotherwords, they basically got lucky.

I haven't been in this forum for awhile, but I remember having discussions with Number 3 about the need for Chevy to re-invent the pony car and come out with a base Camaro that positions itself back in the sweet spot of the market base it used to be in. It's now gotten to the point where they're going to be in trouble with this car, unless they pull a pretty big rabbit out of their hat. It's getting killed in the price segment it's sitting in now. Track performance isn't enough. You can't really use that kind of performance on the street anymore, and how many people actually take their car to a track?

Keep the high performance models, but come out with a new vision of a re-invented Camaro pony car. The $40k-$80k affluent customer is not at all like the $20k-$30k customer. They are much more demanding, and they can be, because every car maker is going out of their way to cater to them. This includes style, features and looks; not just track performance.

Mark Reuss, or whoever is in charge of the Camaro... PLEASE find a designer with a vision! Forget polls and focus groups. That only leads to design that looks like something the government would do. No more toy robot crap. No more design by committee with 5 different groups in charge of 5 different parts of the car.

Compare what $50k gets you from the new Camaro SS versus the Alfa Romeo Giulia, and this is just in the style and looks department, which believe me, is seriously important to the buyer who can spend $50k:

Alfa Romeo Giulia:
Attachment 930781

Has a definite look of identity to the heritage of Alfa Romeo, yet is clearly a modern design. The cabin is spacious and has good visibility. Very comfortable to be in. A pure joy to drive.


2019 Camaro SS:
Attachment 930782

Everyone's already said enough about the front. The body side is too high, the cabin height is too squashed. Looks out of proportion.


Alfa Romeo Giulia interior:
Attachment 930783

Attachment 930784

Elegant. The display is beautifully integrated into the dash. Steering wheel has the start button on it, and is modern but retains a classic feel.


2019 Camaro:
Attachment 930785

Is this supposed to be some kind of a military look? Thick chunky steering wheel looks like something out of a truck. And the screen... really? Looks like an add-on someone bought at Auto-Zone. For $50k?


The fact that when you start it up, it runs and handles like cars twice it's price, just isn't enough to save it's image. Looks matter. People buy on the basis of how it makes them feel when they look at it. If Chevy doesn't figure this out with the 7th gen, it may be the last Camaro, only this time for real.
I think the Guilia makes most other cars look out of date and boring. It's a great design.

The 5th Gen Camaro did the same, but, GM has been diluting the looks ever since, and now they are just botching it up. Meanwhile, the Camaro engineers keep upping their game. The car gets faster, and better every year. The designers are not holding up their end of the bargain. They need to go. They need a whole new design team, exterior and interior.
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:43 PM   #1456
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I don't think they should make the Camaro an everyday car and its not a family car, as much as some people want it to be its not . I don't think it was ever meant to be either .
Never mentioned it being a family car nor should it be because in today’s market that means SUV.

Everyday car simply being better interior room, storage and outward visibility.

There’s a sliding scale here and things can be tweaked without taking away from the vehicles intention (see Mustang)

Obviously on Alpha this is a tough thing to accomplish. Just spit balling
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