[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

.01 second of an advantage would be 100th of a second

.1 would a tenth of a second

for those that are math challenged LOL - all in good fun hotlap

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’m assuming the other 3 would only pick on SS Verts.

Shaffe already spanked you for your math, so I’ll let that go.

Doh. That what I get for dipping into the conversation and making a quick smart ass post.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

They are not all very close. They are close in one category which is straight line performance. Outside of that the Camaro is in a completely different league.

They are close in performance metrics. In fact in the recent 1LE vs PP2 test by C&D, the PP2 had slightly more grip, better braking distance (albeit by only 1 foot), and an ever so slightly higher slalom avg. speed. It no doubt was helped by the stickier tires, but the 1LE tires are no slouch either. That said, the PP1 and standard SS are fairly close in the above categories as well, and in Motor Trend's figure 8 test. The SS and GT PP1 Verts were practically identical in all performance metrics in MT's recent test. I would imagine the base GT and LT1 Camaro will be very similar as well.

Around a track the SS is slightly faster than a PP1, and the SLE is slightly faster than a PP2, but they are close (minus the diff. cooling issues of the GT). That said, it is fairly unanimous from reviewers that the SS and SLE are better balanced than either the PP1 or PP2, but the metrics show they are extremely close.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yeah I heard the Ford guys were thinking about action similar to the Camaro A8 owners class action lawsuit, but the numbers are much higher on the Chevy side.

Perhaps the Legal Division at Ford can settle the shift forks, fires, and engine ticks in one lawsuit then.

[BlaqWhole]

On topic of the ZL1 vs Hellcat with the HP increase the Hellcat received...my thoughts are that the standard "Hellcat" increased by only 10 HP and 6 TQ. Which really they could just be making up considering how grossly underrated the Hellcat was from the start. They could literally change nothing and still claim a 25 HP increase if they wanted. As I understand even the Redeye doesn't dyno as much over the 707 version of the Hellcat that the 797 rating would lead you to believe. So does the ZL1 need an increase? I don't think so.

Looking at cars in the ZL1 price range and going higher, the GT350, GT350R, Hellcat, Redeye, each of them had a significant increase in price and all claimed to have did this or that to make it faster which the evidence suggests is bullshit. They basically just got more expensive. The ZL1 is holding to it's original MSRP without any changes. And GM isn't trying to make claims of more performance to justify increasing the price. A fully optioned ZL1 with BS extras like a car cover and locking lug nuts and battery charger would still be less than $70K. Which is where the GT350R starts. A ZLE fully optioned would be around where a base GT500 would MSRP at. And we can get these cars with "huge discounts" since people would rather pay $10K over MSRP for GT350Rs that are much slower. We could probably get fully optioned ZLEs with A10 for less than $70K brand new at this point which is a steal and a half.

So what I think is that perhaps GM should give the LT4 a bit of a boost to maybe 675-700 HP. Only because "650" sounds a bit dull these days. And I think they need to keep it interesting now that the C8 is here. I would say a nice "700" HP coming in at less than $70K would be great. And maybe merge the ZL1 and ZLE instead of having both. Maybe ditching the manual option as well. Considering the Redeye, GT500, and C8 all are auto only.

So a 700 HP ZL1 under $70K with upgraded suspension (from the 17 ZL1) but not as tight as the ZLE along with a 10.9-11.1 quarter mile and a 205 MPH top speed would seal the deal. Offer it with options like a see thru hood insert but give the engine a nice engine cover that goes around the supercharger. Other options include interior ambient lighting in the footwell with color change options while the vehicle is in operation. No more of this bullshit "red only color when the ignition is on"...whoever decided that is stupid as hell. Give us the option to change the door ambient lighting and throw in changeable footwell lighting at all times. Also include puddle lamps with logos like GM or Chevy or Camaro or ZL1 or 650 HP with a changeable or oscillating option. Add the ZLE wing as an option. Different rim options. And other stuff. Let the customer dress it up. And they could make those options enough to bring the car up to whatever a person thinks is fair to pay. I think if they did that then they could increase interest enough to give them a sales boost.

Oh and they need to start advertising the damn thing.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

They are close in performance metrics. In fact in the recent 1LE vs PP2 test by C&D, the PP2 had slightly more grip, better braking distance (albeit by only 1 foot), and an ever so slightly higher slalom avg. speed. It no doubt was helped by the stickier tires, but the 1LE tires are no slouch either. That said, the PP1 and standard SS are fairly close in the above categories as well, and in Motor Trend's figure 8 test. The SS and GT PP1 Verts were practically identical in all performance metrics in MT's recent test. I would imagine the base GT and LT1 Camaro will be very similar as well.

Around a track the SS is slightly faster than a PP1, and the SLE is slightly faster than a PP2, but they are close (minus the diff. cooling issues of the GT). That said, it is fairly unanimous from reviewers that the SS and SLE are better balanced than either the PP1 or PP2, but the metrics show they are extremely close.

Which one overheated after 1 lap tho? That is an important part that gets left out. Yea lets take both cars around a track and blast them to high hell...but only for one lap because the GT won't be able to go a second lap.

So no they are not close enough when they are both pushed and one can't go more than the first lap without hitting limp mode.

The GT is not a balanced vehicle as seen in the fact that Ford threw those aggressive tires on it and the suspension and cooling system can't keep up. Ford did that because they are a gimmick manufacturer. They threw those tires on so that they could say "look, or GT can now hang with the SLE" even tho it overheated after that lap. It's like trying to hang out with rich people and spending a shit load of money in one night but then being broke for the next 7 months while they can do it every night.

Everything with Ford is gimmick. The GT runs blah blah blah...but only when optioned a specific way. The GT500 feels much lighter than it really is...then doesn't release the 4200 pound weight for a few weeks after that statement. Oh the GT350R is $5K more expensive but we tweaked it and made some adjustments so it has more performance...bullshit. What tweaks did they do, how does it relate to better performance, and is it worth the extra money? (Crickets). Engines that rev to 8250 but drink a quart of oil and vibrate to pieces. New 460 HP engines which after only a year and a half there are lots of people on the second and third one. A "480" HP version with a "Bullitt" emblem on it. Extreme track performance without adequate cooling. How much for racing stripes on the GT500 again? Because on the C8 it is $995. They are a joke.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Perhaps the Legal Division at Ford can settle the shift forks, fires, and engine ticks in one lawsuit then.

And overheating...

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Good point! I guess I just got caught up in responding to someone else’s misguided attempts to paint the SS as the slowest pony car. But you’re right, 5.7 Challenger is clearly back of the pack.

Originally Posted by newmoon

Funny I never referred to a 5.7 L, but again you know that.

Neither of us mentioned Challenger R/T. That was my point. You were (as usual) so intent on trying to characterize the Camaro SS as the slowest V8 pony car that my focus was on pointing out that the fastest Mustang GTs are not easy to find and that the 6MT Mustang GTs are slower than all the other V8 pony cars. Except, as Idaho pointed out, there is the Challenger 5.7L. And since I literally see about 50 of them a day (not an exaggeration) I should be the last person to overlook them.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I think you of all people would know the GT M6 is not the slowest pony car. The 5.7 liter Challenger M6 is the slowest by a wide margin (13.7 @ 103 mph per C&D). I also believe that the 6.4 liter Challenger M6 is equal in e.t. but slower in trap speed than the GT M6. The first C&D test I found for the 485 challenger M6 was 12.6 @ 112 mph. The GT M6 is 12.6 but at 115 mph (per C&D as well). So it's pulling away at the top end. By the way, that 115 mph IIRC matches the best SS M6 trap speed (major magazine tests) as well.

I honestly, much to the dismay of RT owners, don't consider the 5.7 a true pony car. It's like the v6+ lol. The 392 has it's hands full with the GT and SS as it is. 5.7 is s tier below.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

They are close in performance metrics. In fact in the recent 1LE vs PP2 test by C&D, the PP2 had slightly more grip, better braking distance (albeit by only 1 foot), and an ever so slightly higher slalom avg. speed. It no doubt was helped by the stickier tires, but the 1LE tires are no slouch either. That said, the PP1 and standard SS are fairly close in the above categories as well, and in Motor Trend's figure 8 test. The SS and GT PP1 Verts were practically identical in all performance metrics in MT's recent test. I would imagine the base GT and LT1 Camaro will be very similar as well.

Around a track the SS is slightly faster than a PP1, and the SLE is slightly faster than a PP2, but they are close (minus the diff. cooling issues of the GT). That said, it is fairly unanimous from reviewers that the SS and SLE are better balanced than either the PP1 or PP2, but the metrics show they are extremely close.

The pp2 can hang with the 1le for one or a few laps, then eventually it's dead in the water. They're not truly comparable track cars in stock form to those that actually track their cars hard. I like the pp2 a lot, it was between a pp2 or 1le for me, but the tires most certainly help it's grip numbers.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Neither of us mentioned Challenger R/T. That was my point. You were (as usual) so intent on trying to characterize the Camaro SS as the slowest V8 pony car that my focus was on pointing out that the fastest Mustang GTs are not easy to find and that the 6MT Mustang GTs are slower than all the other V8 pony cars. Except, as Idaho pointed out, there is the Challenger 5.7L. And since I literally see about 50 of them a day (not an exaggeration) I should be the last person to overlook them.

Nice try but when speaking of the Scatpack vs an SS nobody is referring to the 5.7, the 392 is the competition but again you already know that. Yes I agree about the M6 GT being slower no excuse there but that doesn't change the fact that Chevy has no Camaro SS reviewed in the 11s while the competition does. The A10 should have made it a 11 sec car but it didn't, it had no impact in performance. The Camaro is lighter and has better torque throughout the powerband, no reason the A10 didn't improve times unless Chevy is holding a bit back.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Nice try but when speaking of the Scatpack vs an SS nobody is referring to the 5.7, the 392 is the competition but again you already know that. Yes I agree about the M6 GT being slower no excuse there but that doesn't change the fact that Chevy has no Camaro SS reviewed in the 11s while the competition does. The A10 should have made it a 11 sec car but it didn't, it had no impact in performance. The Camaro is lighter and has better torque throughout the powerband, no reason the A10 didn't improve times unless Chevy is holding a bit back.

Nobody cares that the heavily updated Mustang GT when optioned a specific way and when driven by a pro racer in the best conditions on the best track is 1 tenth faster than any run of the mill Camaro SS that is the same as it was back in 2016 and that can be ran at any track by anyone in any kinds of conditions. If I had to do all that just to be faster than a regular ole SS then I wouldn't even try to brag.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Nobody cares that the heavily updated Mustang GT when optioned a specific way and when driven by a pro racer in the best conditions on the best track is 1 tenth faster than any run of the mill Camaro SS that is the same as it was back in 2016 and that can be ran at any track by anyone in any kinds of conditions. If I had to do all that just to be faster than a regular ole SS then I wouldn't even try to brag.

Not to mention he's counting the 11 as a test by a reputable publication. The a10 GT pp1 is a very fast pony car and the repeatable and controlled Car and Driver and Motortrend 12.1s are impressive legit times, but that 11 on a prepped track after a whole day of trying for it is hardly worth mentioning. Might as well mention cars on the fast list.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Nobody cares that the heavily updated Mustang GT when optioned a specific way and when driven by a pro racer in the best conditions on the best track is 1 tenth faster than any run of the mill Camaro SS that is the same as it was back in 2016 and that can be ran at any track by anyone in any kinds of conditions. If I had to do all that just to be faster than a regular ole SS then I wouldn't even try to brag.

2018+ GT* vs every 2016+ SS ...that are equally capable. Manual or automatic.

* GT, A10, PP, Michelin PS, 3.55 in drag race mode

Regarding blue
Chevy redefined the Pony car segment in 2016 with a SS that was on par with a gen5 ZL1. It beat any GT by 0.5+ seconds on a drag strip and (literally) caused MotorTrend to skip the road course comparisons completely and match the SS against the BMW M4. It won.

For 2017, Chevy embarrassed the Ford GT350 with the SS 1LE (costing $15,000 less) ...and a grand touring ZL1 that could beat the GT350R on a road course and a match a Hellcat on the drag strip. Starting ZL1 MSRP, $10,000 less than the 12.5 second Ford GT350R.

In 2018, Chevy delivered the ZL1 1LE and stunning the world with a 7:16:04 Nurburgring lap and a MSRP still less than the comparatively pathetic GT350R.

Ford for 2018? A GT* with a (still) unsorted chassis despite a level 1 performance package (PP1) ...and a Performance Package Level 2 (PP2) missing everything need to be a track car but the tires. Oh ...it still can’t beat a 1LE.

For 2020, Chevy brings us the $59,995 Corvette C8 and $64,995 C8 Z51 capable of 0-60 mph in 2.9 sec and 1/4 of 11.3 sec.

Ford in 2020? a 4,200 lb, $73,995 GT500 and a 93,495 GT500 CFTP. Plus options.

Chevy has done ...just ...fine.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Nice try but when speaking of the Scatpack vs an SS nobody is referring to the 5.7, the 392 is the competition but again you already know that. Yes I agree about the M6 GT being slower no excuse there but that doesn't change the fact that Chevy has no Camaro SS reviewed in the 11s while the competition does. The A10 should have made it a 11 sec car but it didn't, it had no impact in performance. The Camaro is lighter and has better torque throughout the powerband, no reason the A10 didn't improve times unless Chevy is holding a bit back.

Really struggling to understand what the bold part means. I’ve never disregarded the Scat Pack cars. I have disregarded the R/T. My best friend has a Daytona Charger Scat Pack. Traded his S197 GT for it. I really like his car. Prefer it over a Challenger Scat Pack. He can’t keep up with my vert in a straight line (but it has gotten close) and we need not even discuss introducing curves. Next week when we go to Milan he may have it wearing Nittos, which might make things more interesting.

But I do tend to disregard R/Ts because around here they are “fast family cars” that seem to think they can outrun anything because they have a Hemi. That was the point Idaho was making. By calling the Mustang GT 6MT the slowest pony car, I mistakenly implied that Mustang GT 6MT was slower than Challenger R/T. Because I often discuss how out of control Challenger R/T drivers have gotten in our area, I am obviously aware they exist.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I honestly, much to the dismay of RT owners, don't consider the 5.7 a true pony car. It's like the v6+ lol. The 392 has it's hands full with the GT and SS as it is. 5.7 is s tier below.

The 5.7 is along the lines of the V6 Camaro and Eco Mustang. Nice car especially for the price for folks who want the looks but don't need the power.