[GAOLDGUY]

Originally Posted by TooleyOnDeck

heads/cam your 1LE and you'll forget the GT350 exists...

I looked really hard at the GT350. I drove fox body mustangs for 17 years and have owned a number of Fords. The GT350 seemed perfect, HOWEVER, these were the things that bothered me, (1) it seemed there were a number of Voodoo engines that had serious problems while still under warranty, (2) many of those engines seemed to have oil consumption issues, (3) I think there may have even been a service bulletin that indicated you might burn a quart of oil every 500 miles under some conditions. They were very expensive also compared to my SS 1LE. I think a heads / cam LT1 would be great fun. No flat plane crank and do 8250 RPM but it would be a fun motor with a power curve that may be better suited for street use. Having said that, to each his own and I respect anyone's decision for going with the GT350.

[TooleyOnDeck]

Originally Posted by GAOLDGUY

Having said that, to each his own and I respect anyone's decision for going with the GT350.

I agree, I tested a Scat Pack 6MT before I bought my 1LE and even though it was obviously heavier and less agile there was something about that 6.4 Hemi sound that had me on the fence. The interior was way less cramped, the sound system was better, and the uConnect interface is better than MyLink in my opinion. Obviously, I still think I made the right choice. There is only 1 other 1LE in my town and it's an automatic (boo). I see like 5 Scats a day.

I personally think it is a good time for all of us to hang onto our Camaros with this being the last production year. We can only speculate where their value is going to go, but 1LEs (especially 2SS 1LEs) are going to dry up quickly. I think we would all kick ourselves in the teeth if we traded our 1LEs in for 40K then they shoot up to 60K+ in a few years.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by GAOLDGUY

I looked really hard at the GT350. I drove fox body mustangs for 17 years and have owned a number of Fords. The GT350 seemed perfect, HOWEVER, these were the things that bothered me, (1) it seemed there were a number of Voodoo engines that had serious problems while still under warranty, (2) many of those engines seemed to have oil consumption issues, (3) I think there may have even been a service bulletin that indicated you might burn a quart of oil every 500 miles under some conditions. They were very expensive also compared to my SS 1LE. I think a heads / cam LT1 would be great fun. No flat plane crank and do 8250 RPM but it would be a fun motor with a power curve that may be better suited for street use. Having said that, to each his own and I respect anyone's decision for going with the GT350.

The engine issues are what scarred me into the 1le. Honestly though I feel like it’s overblown. It seems to affect a small percentage and the Gen 2 voodoo seems to not be as problematic. I had another car that revved over 8k and that burned oil too. I think it’s just to be expected that higher strung motors will consume some oil. I agree a heads cam 1le would be amazing but I live in an emissions state . While I could get away with it since I don’t drive much and will be exempt if I do decide to get rid of it I lose the 12k + that I throw in it for a heads cam package. It’s also a pita to sell a modified car especially ones that don’t pass emissions.

Originally Posted by TooleyOnDeck

I personally think it is a good time for all of us to hang onto our Camaros with this being the last production year. We can only speculate where their value is going to go, but 1LEs (especially 2SS 1LEs) are going to dry up quickly. I think we would all kick ourselves in the teeth if we traded our 1LEs in for 40K then they shoot up to 60K+ in a few years.

While neither of us have a crystal ball I don’t see 1le values going up, at least not in the next 5 years. In regards to value retention I think the 1le’s biggest problem is it’s not its own trim versus say a gt350 or boss 302. It’s just an SS with an option package checked.

[Kamero6]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

The engine issues are what scarred me into the 1le. Honestly though I feel like it’s overblown. It seems to affect a small percentage and the Gen 2 voodoo seems to not be as problematic. I had another car that revved over 8k and that burned oil too. I think it’s just to be expected that higher strung motors will consume some oil. I agree a heads cam 1le would be amazing but I live in an emissions state . While I could get away with it since I don’t drive much and will be exempt if I do decide to get rid of it I lose the 12k + that I throw in it for a heads cam package. It’s also a pita to sell a modified car especially ones that don’t pass emissions.



While neither of us have a crystal ball I don’t see 1le values going up, at least not in the next 5 years. In regards to value retention I think the 1le’s biggest problem is it’s not its own trim versus say a gt350 or boss 302. It’s just an SS with an option package checked.

I think in 2018 coyotes went from Cast Iron liners to Nicasil, and OFC the first years they have problems. Pitting and scoring ruined Vodooo and Coyote engines. Might have been fixed after 2019+.

Engines are not exempt from inherent design problems. High reving engines have ring floating issues, and tend to last less since the rotating assembly has to account for inertia problems. Oil consumption could be a problem if you rev the engine all the time.

On the other hand, pushrod engines always blew lifters and camshafts. It's just the nature of the beast. +6k rpm in a pushrod engine puts a lot of stress in the valvetrain.

At this point is pick your poison

Off topic but not so much, I just saw a YouTube Video of a guy with a 2024 Mustang Gt, with the whipple kit, its good for 810 hp and revs 7500rpm. You need to drop 10k on top of a new GT. 45k + 10K its tempting, and keeps the warranty if its stage 1.

[Vivid_1LE]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

Haha I can't completely argue with that. The problem I'm having is the 1le actually feels a little less fun than my non-1le SS did. When I put my foot down in the 1le it actually feels like i'm going slower than I did in my standard SS even though I know for a fact I'm not going slower.



I choose the 1LE over the GT350 last year but I kinda feel like I made a mistake. Now that I'm older I kinda get paying more (GT350) and having the more unique car even though performance is a wash. I think Chevy made a huge mistake not giving the 1LE a hot rodded LT1 or it's own bespoke engine. I'd probably be satisfied had Chevy did one of those two things but lately I wished I had a more unique car than an SS with an option package checked. Funny thing is I see way more GT350's than I do SS 1le's but idk the car is just way more boring than I ever would have thought. I actually find my prior non 1le more fun. It just felt more raw and I was wondering if prior GT350 owners could chime in and let me know if the car feels more raw/special or not. Guess I'll find out Saturday when I go for a test drive.



Thanks I've watched that video! I am comparing the SS 1le to the GT350 not the ZL1.



I think the handling will take a hit as well, but not as big as what a lot of Camaro owners think when comparing the 19+ 350 to the SS 1le. They made quite a bit of improvements handling wise in the 19 and 20's. Personally I think the upcharge is worth it for the more powerful engine. While it doesn't have the torque of the LT1, coming out of a corner and into a strait away the GT350 will freight train past any SS 1le on the straights. It simply is just making more power. I used to be a performance per dollar kinda guy (hence why I have had two 6th gens) but I really wish I had a more unique, special and raw feeling car. All these cars have more handling than we'll ever get to use on public roads. I am now learning that the subjective things in cars matter just as much as the objective things so I've listed my 1le for sale. Will be test driving a GT350 this weekend, S197 GT500 and C6z06 next weekend. Hope to find a ZL1 to test drive. Probably can't swing the ZL1 unless I private sell my 1le.

If you're looking for a 19+ GT350 just buy a ZL1 1LE. The GT350 has a cool exhaust note and thats about it. I've tracked a GT350, SS 1LE and ZL1 1LE and the GT350 handles and drives much worse than either Camaro. Frankly the only Mustang I've driven I could actually recommend is an S550 GT500, that car is more fun to drive than the 350 and is actually quick around a track and can be had for not much more than a 19+ GT350.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by Vivid_1LE

If you're looking for a 19+ GT350 just buy a ZL1 1LE. The GT350 has a cool exhaust note and thats about it. I've tracked a GT350, SS 1LE and ZL1 1LE and the GT350 handles and drives much worse than either Camaro. Frankly the only Mustang I've driven I could actually recommend is an S550 GT500, that car is more fun to drive than the 350 and is actually quick around a track and can be had for not much more than a 19+ GT350.

S550 GT500’s are well out of my budget. Also I’m a manual guy so even if I could spend 80+k it’s out of the question. I also don’t care for the zl1 1le. I prioritize ride comfort a lot. If I won a zle in a raffle I would immediately trade it for a standard zl1. I just don’t have that many twisty roads near me to enjoy what the alpha platform gives us which is why I think I bought the wrong car. I think a car with more HP would be more fun on the street versus a car that feels a bit underpowered to me.

Originally Posted by Kamero6

I think in 2018 coyotes went from Cast Iron liners to Nicasil, and OFC the first years they have problems. Pitting and scoring ruined Vodooo and Coyote engines. Might have been fixed after 2019+.

Engines are not exempt from inherent design problems. High reving engines have ring floating issues, and tend to last less since the rotating assembly has to account for inertia problems. Oil consumption could be a problem if you rev the engine all the time.

On the other hand, pushrod engines always blew lifters and camshafts. It's just the nature of the beast. +6k rpm in a pushrod engine puts a lot of stress in the valvetrain.

At this point is pick your poison

Off topic but not so much, I just saw a YouTube Video of a guy with a 2024 Mustang Gt, with the whipple kit, its good for 810 hp and revs 7500rpm. You need to drop 10k on top of a new GT. 45k + 10K its tempting, and keeps the warranty if its stage 1.

I agree. It’s a pick your poison type thing. I’ve seen more than I’d like to see 2021+ LT1’s have lifter issues. One thing I’ll point out though is I don’t think the nicasil cylinder liners are why 2018 gt’s and voodoo’s have problems. Fords been using them since 2013 and the gt500 engines that had them are stout. I think it’s something else that caused voodoo’s and 18 Gt’s to blow. I know 19+ voodoo’s have a different piston ring design which I think can certainly contribute to the issues you mentioned.

[ZPirate]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

S550 GT500’s are well out of my budget. Also I’m a manual guy so even if I could spend 80+k it’s out of the question. I also don’t care for the zl1 1le. I prioritize ride comfort a lot. If I won a zle in a raffle I would immediately trade it for a standard zl1. I just don’t have that many twisty roads near me to enjoy what the alpha platform gives us which is why I think I bought the wrong car. I think a car with more HP would be more fun on the street versus a car that feels a bit underpowered to me.

As I've said before, if I were you I'd buy a ZL1 over a GT350 any day. I just did a quick search for 2019 and 2020 GT350s with 15,000 or less miles within 500 miles of me. The prices range from $63,000 up to $78,000. That's right in line with prices of low mileage used 2022-23 ZL1s with manuals. A new 2024 ZL1 is probably out of the question at this point.

[Kamero6]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

S550 GT500’s are well out of my budget. Also I’m a manual guy so even if I could spend 80+k it’s out of the question. I also don’t care for the zl1 1le. I prioritize ride comfort a lot. If I won a zle in a raffle I would immediately trade it for a standard zl1. I just don’t have that many twisty roads near me to enjoy what the alpha platform gives us which is why I think I bought the wrong car. I think a car with more HP would be more fun on the street versus a car that feels a bit underpowered to me.



I agree. It’s a pick your poison type thing. I’ve seen more than I’d like to see 2021+ LT1’s have lifter issues. One thing I’ll point out though is I don’t think the nicasil cylinder liners are why 2018 gt’s and voodoo’s have problems. Fords been using them since 2013 and the gt500 engines that had them are stout. I think it’s something else that caused voodoo’s and 18 Gt’s to blow. I know 19+ voodoo’s have a different piston ring design which I think can certainly contribute to the issues you mentioned.

To go a little deeper in the topic. A GT350 @ 8300 rpm is close to 25m/s of mean piston speed. It's at the limit of a production engine and same as a Nascar engine.
Top Fuel and MotoGP get to 30m/s now. Back in the day, 21m/s was F1 tech, unheard of.
Our rev limiter in the LT1 only allows 19.93 m/s. The stoke of the LT1 is 92mm and the Vodooo 93mm.

The problem with this is that to avoid ring float, you need to make them thinner, but they don't last. So you need to use harder materials, hence the Nikasil and etc...
The issue here is that once the engine cylinder accumulates miles, it wears and loosses it's shape. In low rev or normal engine speeds, the ring can follow deformed cylinders, and still seal.

When you're reving 9000 rpm in a tuned GT350, normal wear can cause issues. First one is oil consumption, followed by improper seal and hot gases burning the oil coating of the cylinder causing deposits and friction. That @ 9K rpm ends up with scoring and melting.

[Curr]

Originally Posted by ZPirate

As I've said before, if I were you I'd buy a ZL1 over a GT350 any day. I just did a quick search for 2019 and 2020 GT350s with 15,000 or less miles within 500 miles of me. The prices range from $63,000 up to $78,000. That's right in line with prices of low mileage used 2022-23 ZL1s with manuals. A new 2024 ZL1 is probably out of the question at this point.

100%.

Hence why I just bought a 22 ZL1 with < 6k miles on it.

I don't think you can find a 24 that's not marked up to hell right now. I think there were 2 in the USA when I stopped looking about 2.5 weeks ago, and neither one of them had an advertised price online. "Call us".

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by ZPirate

As I've said before, if I were you I'd buy a ZL1 over a GT350 any day. I just did a quick search for 2019 and 2020 GT350s with 15,000 or less miles within 500 miles of me. The prices range from $63,000 up to $78,000. That's right in line with prices of low mileage used 2022-23 ZL1s with manuals. A new 2024 ZL1 is probably out of the question at this point.

I noticed this as well. Kinda surprised because I thought the 350 would be the cheaper car. Tried to test drive a manual zl1 today but it sold yesterday. There are none within a 1.5 hour drive of me. I’m almost starting to wonder if manual zl1’s are a figment of my imagination and the one I wanted to drive today didn’t actually exist

All that being said I drove my 1le yesterday and it actually felt snappier. Got new gas in it last week. I’m really starting to wonder if the 93 I put in it before was actually 93. Like I get the 1le puts power down better but it shouldn’t be as drastically different as the car felt the past couple weeks versus my standard SS.

[ZPirate]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

I noticed this as well. Kinda surprised because I thought the 350 would be the cheaper car. Tried to test drive a manual zl1 today but it sold yesterday. There are none within a 1.5 hour drive of me. I’m almost starting to wonder if manual zl1’s are a figment of my imagination and the one I wanted to drive today didn’t actually exist

All that being said I drove my 1le yesterday and it actually felt snappier. Got new gas in it last week. I’m really starting to wonder if the 93 I put in it before was actually 93. Like I get the 1le puts power down better but it shouldn’t be as drastically different as the car felt the past couple weeks versus my standard SS.

Manual ZL1s are most likely harder to find now than when I purchased mine last November. And I had been looking since late August before I found mine. If you are serious about finding one you have to have some patience and keep looking. I expect you will eventually find one if you decide to go that route.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by ZPirate

Manual ZL1s are most likely harder to find now than when I purchased mine last November. And I had been looking since late August before I found mine. If you are serious about finding one you have to have some patience and keep looking. I expect you will eventually find one if you decide to go that route.

There is a thread on here that has every camaro built from 2020-2024. You can download the data including the window sticker if you’re interested in finding yours. Anyway I bring this up because I downloaded all the data and analyzed it. From 2020-2024 30% of zl1’s were built with a manual. The trim/package with the most manuals from 2021-2024 (21 was the first year you could get an automatic SS 1le so I am removing 2020 from the count because that skews the data) was the ss 1le (not very different between the 1ss/2ss). It was roughly 45/55 in favor of the automatic. Overall if I am remembering correctly only roughly 14% of all Camaros built in that time frame were manuals.

[Curr]

Originally Posted by ZPirate

Manual ZL1s are most likely harder to find now than when I purchased mine last November. And I had been looking since late August before I found mine. If you are serious about finding one you have to have some patience and keep looking. I expect you will eventually find one if you decide to go that route.

+1 to get in now.

As of 2 weeks ago, there was around ~20 2022/2023 cars available. 1 WCT (I bought it) 1 Torch Red, 2-3 Rapid Blues, 2-3 SGM, 2-3 Sharkskin, and the rest black / white... for coupes.

VOM seemed to pop up and disappear *very* quickly, as it was my first choice, but the 3 cars that I saw Jan-Mar while I was looking, 2 went within a few days and the 3rd I wouldn't have bought as it looked like a Pepboy's had puked on it.

Add another dozen or so cars if you add convertibles into the mix.

If you went back another year, to 2021 it added a few more cars, but not that many.

[6spdhyperblue]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

While neither of us have a crystal ball I don’t see 1le values going up, at least not in the next 5 years. In regards to value retention I think the 1le’s biggest problem is it’s not its own trim versus say a gt350 or boss 302. It’s just an SS with an option package checked.

Have you seen WS6 trans ams?

They’re pulling over 25% more for a hood and 17s