Homepage Garage Wiki Register Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
#Camaro6
Go Back   CAMARO6 > CAMARO6.com General Forums > 6th gen Camaro vs...


Bigwormgraphix


Post Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-26-2020, 12:25 PM   #85
wnta1ss

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 1,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
On board OBDLink MX+ measurements for both acceleration and MAF readings.
This device reads from the OBD port, meaning the 'speed' information is coming from the car's speedometer, is that correct?
wnta1ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 02:58 PM   #86
shogun37
 
Drives: none
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 119
yes and it's not particularly accurate. You need a 5hz GPS or better, 10hz.
shogun37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 04:16 PM   #87
BlaqWhole
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro ZL1 A10
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
And the Borla catback. Those 3 mods gave me almost 3 tenths from 20-70 mph over K&N intake only. I don't know if I could improve 3 tenths 0-60 due to traction limitations on street tires. Probably 2 tenths, though. I did a stock 0-60 mph in 3.81 seconds with my cold weather Michelin pilot sport A/S 3+ tires last spring. After the few bolt ons at full weight I did a single 0-60 attempt and got 3.7 seconds, but that was my first and only attempt, no burnout, on the same A/S 3+ Michelin tires (exact same portion of road as the stock test). I'm sure with a few attempts I could have gotten down to 3.6 sec. pretty easily - the launch on the 3.7 sec. run was not nearly as good as the stock 3.81 sec. launch. Technique was power braking to about 2k rpm and modulating throttle through first gear before going WOT by about 25 mph.

Compared to stock, the few engine mods I've done combined with the weight loss is probably good for at least 4 tenths from 20-70 mph. Unfortunately, I didn't do stock weight and stock engine 20-70 mph tests to get a comparison.

For what it's worth, the mass airflow readings were 48.5 lbs/min bone stock, average from four separate WOT runs, and negating a few higher outliers. With the bolt ons MAF readings are ~53 lbs/min. average from several separate WOT runs. A general rule of thumb is 10 crank hp per lbs/min MAF for NA engines (supercharged engines are less due to the hp required to run the supercharger); assuming that rule of thumb, the car was about 485 crank hp stock, and 530 crank hp now. That may seem a little high but those are the MAF values from the computer.

I have roll raced a friend's '19 GT350 and put several cars on him 40-85 mph short shifting at only 7k rpm (500 rpm short of redline). I pulled away pretty steadily from 40+, but by 65+ mph I was pulling away hard. He and I generally just drive together on curvy mountain back roads and don't normally roll race. I joke with him I'll try to keep up in the turns, and for him to try to keep up in the straights.

I know one guy locally with an M6 ZL1, but not very well. If I get the chance I'll roll with him to see where my car is at compared to an M6 ZL1.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade. But no way did you gain 45 HP at the crank from those mods. Headers and a tune are probably the best bolton mods available from a HP perspective and I doubt you'd get those numbers even from doing that. Stock is what, 460 HP correct? So in order to make 25 more to the wheels than the stock engine output would require some pretty extensive modding. Your best bet is to actually take it to get dynoed and stop trying to use math to make up numbers. A lot of times these numbers are done by people who want to think they have more power than they do. I'm not calling you a ricer, but that is ricer math. The only true numbers are shown on a dyno graph. And the best real world application is the quarter mile or (much less) the 8th mile.

For the record I have never seen any NA car make more than a handful of HP when swapping to a ported IM/TB. Especially without a tune. Even with forced induction you likely won't see the numbers that you claim you have. I think you need to get that thing on a real dyno and take it down a real track to see what's what.
BlaqWhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 04:37 PM   #88
BlaqWhole
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro ZL1 A10
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnta1ss View Post
This device reads from the OBD port, meaning the 'speed' information is coming from the car's speedometer, is that correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shogun37 View Post
yes and it's not particularly accurate. You need a 5hz GPS or better, 10hz.
I think most of those devices are simply just cool stuff to have but not really anything to take seriously. It seems that most of the time they are off.
BlaqWhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 05:39 PM   #89
s346k


 
s346k's Avatar
 
Drives: like an old lady
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: indiana
Posts: 2,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
I have roll raced a friend's '19 GT350 and put several cars on him 40-85 mph short shifting at only 7k rpm (500 rpm short of redline). I pulled away pretty steadily from 40+, but by 65+ mph I was pulling away hard.

I know one guy locally with an M6 ZL1, but not very well. If I get the chance I'll roll with him to see where my car is at compared to an M6 ZL1.
you don't race other cars much, do you? your car would need an extra couple hundred hp (and traction) to put several cars on a gt350 from 40-85. unless of course the other guy can't drive, in which case...yes. youll gap that thing every time.

i'm not saying your car isn't fast. i'm saying you aren't racing the right people. even when i race cars that make 100 more whp than i do, they don't put several lengths on me by 85, especially from a roll.
__________________
2016+ camaro: everyone’s first car
s346k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 07:02 PM   #90
CHASLT1

 
Drives: 2021 Camaro LT1
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Tampa FL area
Posts: 783
Quote:
Originally Posted by s346k View Post
you don't race other cars much, do you? your car would need an extra couple hundred hp (and traction) to put several cars on a gt350 from 40-85. unless of course the other guy can't drive, in which case...yes. youll gap that thing every time.

i'm not saying your car isn't fast. i'm saying you aren't racing the right people. even when i race cars that make 100 more whp than i do, they don't put several lengths on me by 85, especially from a roll.
I took a ride in a 2017 GT350 not long ago and it pulled darn good in the mid range. Sounded great also.
CHASLT1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 09:17 PM   #91
Idaho2018GTPremium

 
Idaho2018GTPremium's Avatar
 
Drives: 2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I'm not trying to rain on your parade. But no way did you gain 45 HP at the crank from those mods. Headers and a tune are probably the best bolton mods available from a HP perspective and I doubt you'd get those numbers even from doing that. Stock is what, 460 HP correct? So in order to make 25 more to the wheels than the stock engine output would require some pretty extensive modding. Your best bet is to actually take it to get dynoed and stop trying to use math to make up numbers. A lot of times these numbers are done by people who want to think they have more power than they do. I'm not calling you a ricer, but that is ricer math. The only true numbers are shown on a dyno graph. And the best real world application is the quarter mile or (much less) the 8th mile.

For the record I have never seen any NA car make more than a handful of HP when swapping to a ported IM/TB. Especially without a tune. Even with forced induction you likely won't see the numbers that you claim you have. I think you need to get that thing on a real dyno and take it down a real track to see what's what.
Well, the hp numbers may be a little high, but like I said, those were the MAF readings from my car's computer stock vs. bolt ons. My car feels noticeably stronger in the midrange and the high rpms compared to stock. To feel it like that, there's gotta be more than a 10-15 hp difference overall.

If the acceleration times aren't as accurate as a track timer then so be it. To me the important thing is I have multiple runs that show similar improvements from stock to bolt ons, so at least there's a trend in the right direction.
__________________
2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
2022 GR Supra 3.0

Past:
2018 Mustang GT Premium w/ PP1, MR, and A10
2007 MazdaSpeed3
1995 Pontiac Trans Am
1987 Camaro Z28

Idaho2018GTPremium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 11:14 PM   #92
BlaqWhole
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro ZL1 A10
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by s346k View Post
you don't race other cars much, do you? your car would need an extra couple hundred hp (and traction) to put several cars on a gt350 from 40-85. unless of course the other guy can't drive, in which case...yes. youll gap that thing every time.

i'm not saying your car isn't fast. i'm saying you aren't racing the right people. even when i race cars that make 100 more whp than i do, they don't put several lengths on me by 85, especially from a roll.
His car has the A10. So the only way I could see his story being true is if the guy in the Shelby isn't selecting the correct gear. Or if the Shelby's tires are trash. Because 40-85 should not be enough room to have several car lengths on a car with less weight, more power, and CF wheels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Well, the hp numbers may be a little high, but like I said, those were the MAF readings from my car's computer stock vs. bolt ons. My car feels noticeably stronger in the midrange and the high rpms compared to stock. To feel it like that, there's gotta be more than a 10-15 hp difference overall.

If the acceleration times aren't as accurate as a track timer then so be it. To me the important thing is I have multiple runs that show similar improvements from stock to bolt ons, so at least there's a trend in the right direction.
Again, MAF numbers are not dyno numbers. You did not gain that much power from just a ported TB, ported IM, catback, and drop in air filter. And you are not at 485 HP to the wheels without a tune and LTs at the least. The mods you have are probably good for a handful of power at best. Maybe 10 to the wheels. And I highly doubt you added 3 tenths to your 0-60. Most likely you drove the car better that day and got better results. The only way to know what you have is to get it on a dyno and get it to the track.

Not for nothing, but do you say this stuff over on the Mustang forums? Do you tell them that your ported IM/TB, catback, and drop in filter has you at 485 RWHP based on MAF readings and that you're gapping GT350s by several car lengths from 40-85 rolls? How do they reply to that? Just curious.

Last edited by BlaqWhole; 10-26-2020 at 11:31 PM.
BlaqWhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 11:56 PM   #93
Idaho2018GTPremium

 
Idaho2018GTPremium's Avatar
 
Drives: 2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
His car has the A10. So the only way I could see his story being true is if the guy in the Shelby isn't selecting the correct gear. Or if the Shelby's tires are trash. Because 40-85 should not be enough room to have several car lengths on a car with less weight, more power, and CF wheels.

Again, MAF numbers are not dyno numbers. You did not gain that much power from just a ported TB, ported IM, catback, and drop in air filter. And you are not at 485 HP to the wheels without a tune and LTs at the least. The mods you have are probably good for a handful of power at best. Maybe 10 to the wheels. And I highly doubt you added 3 tenths to your 0-60. Most likely you drove the car better that day and got better results. The only way to know what you have is to get it on a dyno and get it to the track.

Not for nothing, but do you say this stuff over on the Mustang forums? Do you tell them that your ported IM/TB, catback, and drop in filter has you at 485 RWHP based on MAF readings and that you're gapping GT350s by several car lengths from 40-85 rolls? How do they reply to that? Just curious.
I realize MAF readings are not dyno numbers. I was saying a general rule of thumb to crank hp is 10 hp per lbs/min MAF reading (I specifically said crank hp in my post). I'm not saying with certainty that my car is making 530 hp just because my MAF readings are 53 lbs/min. But at 53 lbs/min it's certainly well above 460 (stock) hp. And I have the K&N CAI, not just a K&N drop in. And again I never claimed I gained 3 tenths 0-60. I said I improved my 20-70 mph time from 3.53 seconds with K&N CAI intake only to 3.28 seconds with the addition of the ported TB, IM, and Borla catback, and it's probably faster now because the car is another 60 lbs lighter (72 lbs if I remove the lower rear seat pad temporarily) since that round of tests. I do that 20-70 split because it takes the launch out of the equation giving better apples to apples comparisons. Having done multiple splits and looking at the data (again, prior to weight reduction), my car was seeing 0.05-0.06 seconds improvement for 10 mph segments up to 70 mph (over K&N CAI only). I guessed I could probably get 2 tenths out of my 0-60, though.

Just to be clear - I realize this isn't like going to a drag strip nor a dyno. However, those are extremely variable as well. Dyno to dyno could see large differences, just like at a drag strip where the 60' makes a big difference. But at least it's something showing improvements rather than just guessing because it "feels" quicker or more powerful (which it does). I just look at it as set of interesting data.

I posted about my upgrades and data on m6g. I didn't mention the roll races because those were recent and it hasn't come up. That thread was from months ago.

And my buddy's GT350 is not an R. So it's similar weight to mine, except he hasn't done any weight reduction at all so my car is lighter than his.
__________________
2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
2022 GR Supra 3.0

Past:
2018 Mustang GT Premium w/ PP1, MR, and A10
2007 MazdaSpeed3
1995 Pontiac Trans Am
1987 Camaro Z28


Last edited by Idaho2018GTPremium; 10-27-2020 at 12:21 AM.
Idaho2018GTPremium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 12:31 AM   #94
Idaho2018GTPremium

 
Idaho2018GTPremium's Avatar
 
Drives: 2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by s346k View Post
you don't race other cars much, do you? your car would need an extra couple hundred hp (and traction) to put several cars on a gt350 from 40-85. unless of course the other guy can't drive, in which case...yes. youll gap that thing every time.

i'm not saying your car isn't fast. i'm saying you aren't racing the right people. even when i race cars that make 100 more whp than i do, they don't put several lengths on me by 85, especially from a roll.
I don't street race that much anymore (lots back in college - young and dumb), no, but I've had a few of them in the Mustang from time to time. But maybe you're right - maybe he granny shifted into 3rd, and I also only had ~1/4 tank of gas - maybe he had nearly a full tank and granny shifted into 3rd. I'm not sure, honestly. Those two things could explain why I steadily pulled away at first when he would have been in 2nd, then walked him like I did in the last 20 mph or so after possibly granny shifting. Although I didn't see or hear him miss a gear, but he was already behind me. I know I let off before him because he came up on me after I let off.

Anyway, he and I have hung out and gone driving on some curvy mountain roads a couple of times since then but we haven't talked about it. We may go this wknd again; I'll see if he's up for a roll out on some back roads again.
__________________
2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
2022 GR Supra 3.0

Past:
2018 Mustang GT Premium w/ PP1, MR, and A10
2007 MazdaSpeed3
1995 Pontiac Trans Am
1987 Camaro Z28

Idaho2018GTPremium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 05:53 AM   #95
wnta1ss

 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 1,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Just to be clear - I realize this isn't like going to a drag strip nor a dyno. However, those are extremely variable as well. Dyno to dyno could see large differences, just like at a drag strip where the 60' makes a big difference. But at least it's something showing improvements rather than just guessing because it "feels" quicker or more powerful (which it does). I just look at it as set of interesting data.
Variations in dynos don't really mean anything if you use them correctly. That means running the baseline test and then the modded test on the same dyno. Difference between the 2 pulls shows you what change you experienced.

Dragstrip is the real test. You should not let your fear of disappointing 60' times stop you from running on one. Even on street tires, you could still gain some information. Example, let's pretend that you had ran your stock car and got a 12.5 baseline. Then pretend that you ran again with your modifications and got a 12.3, you could then examine both timeslips and see the differences. That would be much more meaningful data than 'times' coming from a device that reads the speedometer.
wnta1ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 08:07 AM   #96
s346k


 
s346k's Avatar
 
Drives: like an old lady
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: indiana
Posts: 2,394
the dragy boxes have been proven extremely accurate - repeatedly.
__________________
2016+ camaro: everyone’s first car
s346k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 08:55 AM   #97
shogun37
 
Drives: none
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
Not for nothing, but do you say this stuff over on the Mustang forums?
not credibly. If he did (can't recall) it would get the same warm welcome you get Blaq.
shogun37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 09:18 AM   #98
RobbyBeefcake87

 
RobbyBeefcake87's Avatar
 
Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Tampa Florida
Posts: 1,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Most of this is false.

The Mach 1 is not just a PP2 with a Tremec, GT350 intake, and stickers. It also shares some chassis parts with the GT350 and GT500, and obviously has the coolers necessary for extended track work.

Regarding the GT350 vs 2018 Manifold: It's been proven on the Mustang forums that a GT350 intake manifold makes a quicker car than a ported '18 manifold. The GT350 manifold makes about the same peak hp as a ported 2018 GT manifold, but the GT350 mani has a flatter high rpm hp curve and therefore has a higher average hp in the top end, and actually accelerates quicker than the same car with a ported 2018 GT manifold.

I decided to just port my stock 2018 intake manifold because to go ported GT350 would have cost a lot more.
While it is not exactly a pp2 with a tremec, in laymens terms it mostly is + coolers.

The gt350 manifold is "better" than an 18, but I'd probably just port my 19 manifold as well if I had stayed NA for cost savings, plus I prefer the 18+ on an m6 car. However even though the 350 manifold has been proven to be better in aftermarket modified cars, it did not show that thus far in the only other factory 5.0 its been on, the Bullit. The Bullit has shown to be no faster than a standard 5.0, if anything usually slower, but maybe the tighter 3160 gearing will make up for that and take advantage of the extra power up top.
__________________
2000 Miata - aventi storm wheels, roll bar.
2019 Mustang GT pp1 - svt pp2 wheels, mbrp cat back, sync 3 upgrade, p1x procharger + stg2 intercooler.
2018 Colorado zr2 - zr2 sport bar, showcase spare tire.
2018 Camaro SS 1LE - GM cai, black bowties, suede knee bolsters, 1le plate frame, black fuel door, dark tails + 3rd brake light, euro side markers + led's, GM all weather floor mats, velossatech big mouth, GM strut brace.
2017 Corvette Grandsport (sold) - untouched.
2006 GTO (sold) - iat relocation, air box mod, monero side marker lights.

Last edited by RobbyBeefcake87; 10-27-2020 at 10:27 AM.
RobbyBeefcake87 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Post Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.