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Old 06-19-2020, 01:48 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by UnknownJinX View Post
I feel like this is definitely why. Some trims of Gen 6 Camaro are very comparable some trims of C7 in terms of performance, while being cheaper and even more reliable(ZL1 doesn't overheat like Z06 does).

In a way, Camaro is the middle child nobody cares about. The trucks are where the money is so of course they will get more marketing, while Corvette's halo car status sells it. That said, C8 does change things up with the mid-engine setup and that puts it clearly above Camaro, so maybe there is no need to protect the Corvette as much as they needed to with C7.

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Yup. Agreed. This too. There was definitely some overlap between 6th Gen Camaro and C7; there is still over-lap to the C8. Two different kinds of sports cars vying for, in many cases, the same type of consumer, under the same brand. The legacy of "Corvette" is more inline with the legacy of "Mustang" than "Camaro" is... My question is, could GM have developed a better legacy for "Camaro" than they have? I think the path they were on could have...
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:52 PM   #16
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I agree with everyone's sentiment on GM essentially, and basically abruptly, stepping away from further developments on the Camaro just after two model years (about around/after 2018 model year) and, basically, failing to market the vehicle for the 6th Generation in the general sense (yes, the SS, ZL1 and 1LE packages marketed greatly through various channels for performance enthusiasts, but marketing was severely lacking for the general public).

Nevertheless, even with the possibility of the point of self-inflicted poor sales, the below is something to consider towards not beating this topic to death time-after-time:


https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...blackwing-v-8/

The quote is directed towards Cadillac and the Blackwing V8, but the person the quotes comes from and basic subject matter is directly relative to the situation of Camaro and sport coupes/cars. I love the 6th Gen Camaro, it's a fantastic performance platform and very well engineered, but when it lacks is where sales matter the most for it: the general public. As much as one wants to argue the Camaro isn't a sportscar, I argue it is. By basic definition, no, it isn't, but by capability and the focused-direction of the platform in general, it certainly is. Enthusiasts=sports car. General public=sports coupe/sedan. This is why the Mustang and Charger/Challenger* end up beating out Camaro in sales.

*FCA has had so much time to recoup investment costs with these platforms, they are able to offer extremely lucrative finance deals/deals making them Charger/Challenger super easy accessible to basically anyone.
The bold agree 1000%

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Yup. Agreed. This too. There was definitely some overlap between 6th Gen Camaro and C7; there is still over-lap to the C8. Two different kinds of sports cars vying for, in many cases, the same type of consumer, under the same brand. The legacy of "Corvette" is more inline with the legacy of "Mustang" than "Camaro" is... My question is, could GM have developed a better legacy for "Camaro" than they have? I think the path they were on could have...
Yep.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:41 PM   #17
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I agree with everyone's sentiment on GM essentially, and basically abruptly, stepping away from further developments on the Camaro just after two model years (about around/after 2018 model year) and, basically, failing to market the vehicle for the 6th Generation in the general sense (yes, the SS, ZL1 and 1LE packages marketed greatly through various channels for performance enthusiasts, but marketing was severely lacking for the general public).

Nevertheless, even with the possibility of the point of self-inflicted poor sales, the below is something to consider towards not beating this topic to death time-after-time:


https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...blackwing-v-8/

The quote is directed towards Cadillac and the Blackwing V8, but the person the quotes comes from and basic subject matter is directly relative to the situation of Camaro and sport coupes/cars. I love the 6th Gen Camaro, it's a fantastic performance platform and very well engineered, but when it lacks is where sales matter the most for it: the general public. As much as one wants to argue the Camaro isn't a sportscar, I argue it is. By basic definition, no, it isn't, but by capability and the focused-direction of the platform in general, it certainly is. Enthusiasts=sports car. General public=sports coupe/sedan. This is why the Mustang and Charger/Challenger* end up beating out Camaro in sales.

*FCA has had so much time to recoup investment costs with these platforms, they are able to offer extremely lucrative finance deals/deals making them Charger/Challenger super easy accessible to basically anyone.
The GT350 and GT350R are every bit the "sports car" that any Camaro is, so that's not really a definitive factor for the Camaro.

I would argue the Mustang sells better than the Camaro for a number of other reasons. A few being: name recognition and heritage; livability: i.e. better ergonomics, better visibility, bigger trunk, bigger back seats, etc., (it's been easier to see out of than the Camaro since the fox body days - I had a 3rd gen and 4th gen Trans Am - you couldn't even see the hood in the 4th gen!), lower cost base V8 option (up until the LT1 Camaro was introduced last year), styling (subjective, but I think most people would argue the Mustang looks better than the Camaro - I realize not this crowd), more comfortable for daily driving.

Challenger sells better for many of those same reasons, although not necessarily the name recognition or heritage - as those are on par w/ the Camaro IMO. Dodge also does more marketing and pushes the boundaries (Hellcat, Demon, Redeye) that grabs attention. The ZL1 grabbed attn. back in 2017, but nothing since. The ZLE doesn't quite speak to the public like a wild 797 hp Grand Tourer widebody that weighs almost 4,600 lbs and looks pretty cool going down the road.

Sure, the base SS is better handling the the base GT and PP1, and the SLE is about as quick around a track but better balanced than the PP2, but we're talking about only a tiny fragment of people that care about those minute differences. A PP1 w/ MagneRide is really good - I can attest, that's what I have. It's a blast on back roads. A PP2 is really good (except for tramlining). The GT350R is exceptional. Randy P. called the GT500 CFTP a true Supercar (not Supercar killer). It's not like the Mustang is hurting for track prowess.

That's where the Camaro faithful fall short nowadays. They hang their hat on that the SS goes around a track better than a PP1, or that the SLE is potentially slightly quicker around a track than the PP2 (both wearing Cup 2 tires), but that doesn't matter that much, really, in the grand scheme of things. Most people want a cool car that accelerates well, looks good, and is fun to drive and easy to live with.

In order for those great Camaros to exist (ZL1, ZLE, Z28, etc.), GM needs to sell enough of the base models and SS models to keep the nameplate going. I hope it does, because competition breeds improvement, on both sides.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:07 PM   #18
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The GT350 and GT350R are every bit the "sports car" that any Camaro is, so that's not really a definitive factor for the Camaro.

I would argue the Mustang sells better than the Camaro for a number of other reasons. A few being: name recognition and heritage; livability: i.e. better ergonomics, better visibility, bigger trunk, bigger back seats, etc., (it's been easier to see out of than the Camaro since the fox body days - I had a 3rd gen and 4th gen Trans Am - you couldn't even see the hood in the 4th gen!), lower cost base V8 option (up until the LT1 Camaro was introduced last year), styling (subjective, but I think most people would argue the Mustang looks better than the Camaro - I realize not this crowd), more comfortable for daily driving.

Challenger sells better for many of those same reasons, although not necessarily the name recognition or heritage - as those are on par w/ the Camaro IMO. Dodge also does more marketing and pushes the boundaries (Hellcat, Demon, Redeye) that grabs attention. The ZL1 grabbed attn. back in 2017, but nothing since. The ZLE doesn't quite speak to the public like a wild 797 hp Grand Tourer widebody that weighs almost 4,600 lbs and looks pretty cool going down the road.

Sure, the base SS is better handling the the base GT and PP1, and the SLE is about as quick around a track but better balanced than the PP2, but we're talking about only a tiny fragment of people that care about those minute differences. A PP1 w/ MagneRide is really good - I can attest, that's what I have. It's a blast on back roads. A PP2 is really good (except for tramlining). The GT350R is exceptional. Randy P. called the GT500 CFTP a true Supercar (not Supercar killer). It's not like the Mustang is hurting for track prowess.

That's where the Camaro faithful fall short nowadays. They hang their hat on that the SS goes around a track better than a PP1, or that the SLE is potentially slightly quicker around a track than the PP2 (both wearing Cup 2 tires), but that doesn't matter that much, really, in the grand scheme of things. Most people want a cool car that accelerates well, looks good, and is fun to drive and easy to live with.

In order for those great Camaros to exist (ZL1, ZLE, Z28, etc.), GM needs to sell enough of the base models and SS models to keep the nameplate going. I hope it does, because competition breeds improvement, on both sides.
Well, that's really the same thing as to why Sedans are dying and SUV is thriving. Sedans are more engaging to drive compared to SUVs but people want SUV for the practicality whether or not they really need it.

I guess that's just the eternal struggle. Either make a good sports car that doesn't sell(S2000, Viper, etc.) or make compromises for sales but you end up with enthusiasts badmouthing you(Zupr4).

One thing I dislike about the Mustang in terms of comfort and kind of a deal-breaker for me is the lack of a sunroof option. Coupes without sunroof feel depressing inside while convertibles sacrifice too much performance. Yeah, I know all the downsides of a sunroof but it's absolutely awesome to have one open on a sunny day.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:41 PM   #19
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Yeah, I know all the downsides of a sunroof but it's absolutely awesome to have one open on a sunny day.
Yeah, I know all the downsides of a convertible but it's more awesome than a sunroof to have one open on a sunny day.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:47 PM   #20
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Yeah, I know all the downsides of a convertible but it's more awesome than a sunroof to have one open on a sunny day.
Different strokes for different people. Just depends on what you want, really. I don't have anything against convertibles, they are just not for me.

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Old 06-19-2020, 05:11 PM   #21
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Well, that's really the same thing as to why Sedans are dying and SUV is thriving. Sedans are more engaging to drive compared to SUVs but people want SUV for the practicality whether or not they really need it.

I guess that's just the eternal struggle. Either make a good sports car that doesn't sell(S2000, Viper, etc.) or make compromises for sales but you end up with enthusiasts badmouthing you(Zupr4).

One thing I dislike about the Mustang in terms of comfort and kind of a deal-breaker for me is the lack of a sunroof option. Coupes without sunroof feel depressing inside while convertibles sacrifice too much performance. Yeah, I know all the downsides of a sunroof but it's absolutely awesome to have one open on a sunny day.
Yeah, true about the SUV vs. cars comparison, although the Mustang and Camaro aren't that far apart in the spectrum.

Regarding a sunroof - I have zero desire for one, although the t-tops on my old Z28 were fun as a teenager but even then I hated how hot the seats would get, so I bought covers for them, easy enough to remove when I wanted to take the tops off. I always close the cloth cover on my wife's XC90 pano sunroof to keep the sun out. I hate the sun shining in through above my sunglasses.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:37 PM   #22
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Mustnag GT. Cheap car that can be upgraded.

Mustnag GT PP. Slower than the Mustnag GT in a straight line. Slightly faster than the Mustnag around a track. Not worth even talking about. Waste of money for those who want to mod.

Mustnag GT PP2. Still slower than the Mustnag GT in a straight line. Costs even more than the PP. Significantly faster than the GT and GT PP around a track but only 1 time.

Bullitt. Costs even more than the Mustnag GT PP2. Slower around a track than the Mustnag GT PP2. Slower than the Mustnag GT in a straight line. Has 20 more HP than the GT, GT PP, and GT PP2...and some de-badged.

GT350. Remarkably slower than the Mustang GT in a straight line. Marginally faster than the 1 lap wonder GT PP2. Costs more than a C8. Notable that it manages to beat all the others around a track.

GT350R. For $73K you can buy a Mustnag that is more expensive than ZL1, ZLE, C8, and C8 Z51...but still be slower than a $29K Mustnag GT in a straight line. Can beat the other Mustnags around a track. Can't beat any of the cheaper competition at anything. Sounds pretty cool.

GT500. Cheaper than a GT350R. Fastest Mustnag in a straight line. NOT the fastest Mustnag around a track.

GT500 CF. $93K. Lost more than it has won. Raced a Subaru.

Upcoming Mach1: Same HP as the Bullitt. Suspension equal to a PP1.5-ish type something or another. Will have coolers which will allow it to lose more than once around a track. Will probably cost about $63K if not more. Auto or manual. Will probably tie the $29K GT. Will lose to anything above the PP2 around a track. Will not beat any GM car that costs over $60K...at anything.

So this is what people are getting excited about? Seriously? Ford throws some stuff around, slaps a different badge on it, ups the price, and everyone criticizes GM for not doing the same thing? What will the Mach 1 actually beat. I doubt it beats the SLE around a track. The auto version might be slightly faster in a straight line. But it won't touch anything GM has in the same price range. I mean, maybe GM should take the LT4, remove the blower, throw it on a SLE, give it a different hood and front, call it a "Z28", ad sell them.

I'm not impressed. I do not find any of this exciting. People will probably pay markups for this just like they did for the Bullitts. And it will be just as disappointing but more expensively disappointing.
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Old 06-19-2020, 08:04 PM   #23
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The GT350 and GT350R are every bit the "sports car" that any Camaro is, so that's not really a definitive factor for the Camaro.

I would argue the Mustang sells better than the Camaro for a number of other reasons. A few being: name recognition and heritage; livability: i.e. better ergonomics, better visibility, bigger trunk, bigger back seats, etc., (it's been easier to see out of than the Camaro since the fox body days - I had a 3rd gen and 4th gen Trans Am - you couldn't even see the hood in the 4th gen!), lower cost base V8 option (up until the LT1 Camaro was introduced last year), styling (subjective, but I think most people would argue the Mustang looks better than the Camaro - I realize not this crowd), more comfortable .
Wouldn't really agree with most of this, seems you've been around the block but was wondering if you have driven a 6th gen camaro? I've owned a few camaros in the last 5 years, also had a '18 gt rental for about a week. Was able to form some opinions on the differences. Preferred the camaro ergos much more than the mustang, would say back seats and trunk size were pretty equal other than trunk opening goes to mustang. Visibility also slightly better in mustang but not much. Style wise could go either way, like the look of both gt350/500 as well as ss 1le/zl1 1le. Comfortability was basically the same. I agree the name mustang, as well as shelby helps them sell tremendously. Hell they had a 35k markup for a base gt500, came in at 115k and the thing was sold. To each there own but a fool and his money will be parted. Just my observations from driving both.
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Old 06-19-2020, 09:37 PM   #24
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Mustnag GT. Cheap car that can be upgraded.

Mustnag GT PP. Slower than the Mustnag GT in a straight line. Slightly faster than the Mustnag around a track. Not worth even talking about. Waste of money for those who want to mod.

Mustnag GT PP2. Still slower than the Mustnag GT in a straight line. Costs even more than the PP. Significantly faster than the GT and GT PP around a track but only 1 time.

Bullitt. Costs even more than the Mustnag GT PP2. Slower around a track than the Mustnag GT PP2. Slower than the Mustnag GT in a straight line. Has 20 more HP than the GT, GT PP, and GT PP2...and some de-badged.

GT350. Remarkably slower than the Mustang GT in a straight line. Marginally faster than the 1 lap wonder GT PP2. Costs more than a C8. Notable that it manages to beat all the others around a track.

GT350R. For $73K you can buy a Mustnag that is more expensive than ZL1, ZLE, C8, and C8 Z51...but still be slower than a $29K Mustnag GT in a straight line. Can beat the other Mustnags around a track. Can't beat any of the cheaper competition at anything. Sounds pretty cool.

GT500. Cheaper than a GT350R. Fastest Mustnag in a straight line. NOT the fastest Mustnag around a track.

GT500 CF. $93K. Lost more than it has won. Raced a Subaru.

Upcoming Mach1: Same HP as the Bullitt. Suspension equal to a PP1.5-ish type something or another. Will have coolers which will allow it to lose more than once around a track. Will probably cost about $63K if not more. Auto or manual. Will probably tie the $29K GT. Will lose to anything above the PP2 around a track. Will not beat any GM car that costs over $60K...at anything.

So this is what people are getting excited about? Seriously? Ford throws some stuff around, slaps a different badge on it, ups the price, and everyone criticizes GM for not doing the same thing? What will the Mach 1 actually beat. I doubt it beats the SLE around a track. The auto version might be slightly faster in a straight line. But it won't touch anything GM has in the same price range. I mean, maybe GM should take the LT4, remove the blower, throw it on a SLE, give it a different hood and front, call it a "Z28", ad sell them.

I'm not impressed. I do not find any of this exciting. People will probably pay markups for this just like they did for the Bullitts. And it will be just as disappointing but more expensively disappointing.
I see you still spew the same stuff as you used to when I frequented this site last year, and don't really know what you're talking about.

2019 Shelby GT350: 12.3 @ 119 mph (C&D)
2018 Mustang GT M6: 12.6 @ 115+ mph (C&D)
2018 PP2: 12.6 @ 114 mph (extra aero slows the mph down) (C&D)
2016 Shelby GT350R: 12.2 @ 119 mph even w/ the aero (C&D) msrp $63,495 (around $12k cheaper than the Z28 when it came out but faster around a track AND in a straight line, and way more livable)
2018 GT A10: 12.1 @ 120 mph (C&D).

The GT350 isn't remarkably slower than the A10 GT, it's 2 tenths slower in the 1/4 mile (and only 1 tenth for the R), and that's only because it's an M6. The trap speed is only 1 mph behind the A10 GT, which is pretty close, not remarkably slower than an A10 GT. Hypothetically, give the GT350 the A10, and it's a 11.7/8 @ 123 mph car. Right on the ZL1's heels but down 120+ hp.

The Mach 1 isn't a PP1.5...it's not a PP1 or PP2. It's more of a hybrid between all the Mustangs PP1, PP2, GT350, GT500. It has some chassis and aero components from the GT350 and GT500. It has cooling from those. It's likely going to be about as fast as a GT350 around a track and likely quicker than a PP2. It has the GT350 intake and trans.

Even though it will cost more than an SLE, people will still buy it because, unlike you, most buyers care more than just about bragging about the gnats ass of times around a track that they'll never be capable of reproducing.
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:28 PM   #25
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I see you still spew the same stuff as you used to when I frequented this site last year, and don't really know what you're talking about.


2019 Shelby GT350: 12.3 @ 119 mph (C&D)
2018 Mustang GT M6: 12.6 @ 115+ mph (C&D)
2018 PP2: 12.6 @ 114 mph (extra aero slows the mph down) (C&D)
2016 Shelby GT350R: 12.2 @ 119 mph even w/ the aero (C&D) msrp $63,495 (around $12k cheaper than the Z28 when it came out but faster around a track AND in a straight line, and way more livable)
2018 GT A10: 12.1 @ 120 mph (C&D).

The GT350 isn't remarkably slower than the A10 GT, it's 2 tenths slower in the 1/4 mile (and only 1 tenth for the R), and that's only because it's an M6. The trap speed is only 1 mph behind the A10 GT, which is pretty close, not remarkably slower than an A10 GT. Hypothetically, give the GT350 the A10, and it's a 11.7/8 @ 123 mph car. Right on the ZL1's heels but down 120+ hp.

The Mach 1 isn't a PP1.5...it's not a PP1 or PP2. It's more of a hybrid between all the Mustangs PP1, PP2, GT350, GT500. It has some chassis and aero components from the GT350 and GT500. It has cooling from those. It's likely going to be about as fast as a GT350 around a track and likely quicker than a PP2. It has the GT350 intake and trans.

Even though it will cost more than an SLE, people will still buy it because, unlike you, most buyers care more than just about bragging about the gnats ass of times around a track that they'll never be capable of reproducing.
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Old 06-20-2020, 09:22 AM   #26
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Yeah, I know all the downsides of a convertible but it's more awesome than a sunroof to have one open on a sunny day.

I had to ditch my last convertible because of recurring skin cancer b.s., but I refused to completely surrender. Sunroof is open all the time pissing off my wife and dermatologist!
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Old 06-20-2020, 11:33 AM   #27
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I had to ditch my last convertible because of recurring skin cancer b.s., but I refused to completely surrender. Sunroof is open all the time pissing off my wife and dermatologist!
I love the sunroof also! 80 proof Sunscreen!! My doctor burns off any bad looking stuff now. Being in my ocean going boat (walk around) did piss him off. Boat gone.

I originally chose the Camaro over the Mustang for that very reason. All it had was an expensive silly glass roof. Good choice for me.

As to track times it is pretty much a wash. But in the Mustang I feel like I am driving a good handling car. (I have driven many before the last refresh) But in the Camaro I feel like I am driving a sports car. It reminds me of my 2007 TT BMW 3 series with a stonkin Chevy small block. That BMW is part of the C&D G.O.A.T. article. Does it get better than that?

I am very happy my M6 LT1 with tires is faster than a stock M6 Coyote with similar tires.I am hoping to get my M6 LT1 with DRs, a Rotofab dry and a stock tune into the high 11s so I at least have a chance with the A10 cars.

But while we have all these fun discussions, isn't having fun with your car the real reason we buy them?
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Old 06-20-2020, 02:16 PM   #28
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The GT350 and GT350R are every bit the "sports car" that any Camaro is, so that's not really a definitive factor for the Camaro.

I would argue the Mustang sells better than the Camaro for a number of other reasons. A few being: name recognition and heritage; livability: i.e. better ergonomics, better visibility, bigger trunk, bigger back seats, etc., (it's been easier to see out of than the Camaro since the fox body days - I had a 3rd gen and 4th gen Trans Am - you couldn't even see the hood in the 4th gen!), lower cost base V8 option (up until the LT1 Camaro was introduced last year), styling (subjective, but I think most people would argue the Mustang looks better than the Camaro - I realize not this crowd), more comfortable for daily driving.

Challenger sells better for many of those same reasons, although not necessarily the name recognition or heritage - as those are on par w/ the Camaro IMO. Dodge also does more marketing and pushes the boundaries (Hellcat, Demon, Redeye) that grabs attention. The ZL1 grabbed attn. back in 2017, but nothing since. The ZLE doesn't quite speak to the public like a wild 797 hp Grand Tourer widebody that weighs almost 4,600 lbs and looks pretty cool going down the road.

Sure, the base SS is better handling the the base GT and PP1, and the SLE is about as quick around a track but better balanced than the PP2, but we're talking about only a tiny fragment of people that care about those minute differences. A PP1 w/ MagneRide is really good - I can attest, that's what I have. It's a blast on back roads. A PP2 is really good (except for tramlining). The GT350R is exceptional. Randy P. called the GT500 CFTP a true Supercar (not Supercar killer). It's not like the Mustang is hurting for track prowess.

That's where the Camaro faithful fall short nowadays. They hang their hat on that the SS goes around a track better than a PP1, or that the SLE is potentially slightly quicker around a track than the PP2 (both wearing Cup 2 tires), but that doesn't matter that much, really, in the grand scheme of things. Most people want a cool car that accelerates well, looks good, and is fun to drive and easy to live with.

In order for those great Camaros to exist (ZL1, ZLE, Z28, etc.), GM needs to sell enough of the base models and SS models to keep the nameplate going. I hope it does, because competition breeds improvement, on both sides.
Did you read my two posts?
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