06-19-2020, 01:48 PM | #15 | |
Drives: 2017 SS 1LE, 2016 1SS (previous) Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Metro-Detroit
Posts: 1,863
|
Quote:
|
|
06-19-2020, 01:52 PM | #16 | ||
Drives: 21 Bronco Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Carol Stream
Posts: 6,023
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
06-19-2020, 03:41 PM | #17 | |
Drives: 2021 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,198
|
Quote:
I would argue the Mustang sells better than the Camaro for a number of other reasons. A few being: name recognition and heritage; livability: i.e. better ergonomics, better visibility, bigger trunk, bigger back seats, etc., (it's been easier to see out of than the Camaro since the fox body days - I had a 3rd gen and 4th gen Trans Am - you couldn't even see the hood in the 4th gen!), lower cost base V8 option (up until the LT1 Camaro was introduced last year), styling (subjective, but I think most people would argue the Mustang looks better than the Camaro - I realize not this crowd), more comfortable for daily driving. Challenger sells better for many of those same reasons, although not necessarily the name recognition or heritage - as those are on par w/ the Camaro IMO. Dodge also does more marketing and pushes the boundaries (Hellcat, Demon, Redeye) that grabs attention. The ZL1 grabbed attn. back in 2017, but nothing since. The ZLE doesn't quite speak to the public like a wild 797 hp Grand Tourer widebody that weighs almost 4,600 lbs and looks pretty cool going down the road. Sure, the base SS is better handling the the base GT and PP1, and the SLE is about as quick around a track but better balanced than the PP2, but we're talking about only a tiny fragment of people that care about those minute differences. A PP1 w/ MagneRide is really good - I can attest, that's what I have. It's a blast on back roads. A PP2 is really good (except for tramlining). The GT350R is exceptional. Randy P. called the GT500 CFTP a true Supercar (not Supercar killer). It's not like the Mustang is hurting for track prowess. That's where the Camaro faithful fall short nowadays. They hang their hat on that the SS goes around a track better than a PP1, or that the SLE is potentially slightly quicker around a track than the PP2 (both wearing Cup 2 tires), but that doesn't matter that much, really, in the grand scheme of things. Most people want a cool car that accelerates well, looks good, and is fun to drive and easy to live with. In order for those great Camaros to exist (ZL1, ZLE, Z28, etc.), GM needs to sell enough of the base models and SS models to keep the nameplate going. I hope it does, because competition breeds improvement, on both sides.
__________________
2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
2022 GR Supra 3.0 Past: 2018 Mustang GT Premium w/ PP1, MR, and A10 2007 MazdaSpeed3 1995 Pontiac Trans Am 1987 Camaro Z28 |
|
06-19-2020, 04:07 PM | #18 | |
Drives: 19 Chevrolet Camaro 2SS 1LE Shock Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 1,947
|
Quote:
I guess that's just the eternal struggle. Either make a good sports car that doesn't sell(S2000, Viper, etc.) or make compromises for sales but you end up with enthusiasts badmouthing you(Zupr4). One thing I dislike about the Mustang in terms of comfort and kind of a deal-breaker for me is the lack of a sunroof option. Coupes without sunroof feel depressing inside while convertibles sacrifice too much performance. Yeah, I know all the downsides of a sunroof but it's absolutely awesome to have one open on a sunny day.
__________________
Current:
2019 Chevrolet Camaro 2SS 1LE M6 Shock GM Performance Intake and that's it, because driver mods before car mods Past: 2009 Mazda RX-8 GT M6 Velocity Red Mica (Sold) 2015 Chevrolet Corvette Z51 2LT M7 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat (Flood totaled) |
|
06-19-2020, 04:41 PM | #19 |
Drives: 2017 HBM 2LT RS Convertible V6 A8 Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: NJ
Posts: 654
|
|
06-19-2020, 04:47 PM | #20 | |
Drives: 19 Chevrolet Camaro 2SS 1LE Shock Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 1,947
|
Quote:
Sent from toaster or something
__________________
Current:
2019 Chevrolet Camaro 2SS 1LE M6 Shock GM Performance Intake and that's it, because driver mods before car mods Past: 2009 Mazda RX-8 GT M6 Velocity Red Mica (Sold) 2015 Chevrolet Corvette Z51 2LT M7 Velocity Yellow Tintcoat (Flood totaled) |
|
06-19-2020, 05:11 PM | #21 | |
Drives: 2021 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,198
|
Quote:
Regarding a sunroof - I have zero desire for one, although the t-tops on my old Z28 were fun as a teenager but even then I hated how hot the seats would get, so I bought covers for them, easy enough to remove when I wanted to take the tops off. I always close the cloth cover on my wife's XC90 pano sunroof to keep the sun out. I hate the sun shining in through above my sunglasses.
__________________
2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
2022 GR Supra 3.0 Past: 2018 Mustang GT Premium w/ PP1, MR, and A10 2007 MazdaSpeed3 1995 Pontiac Trans Am 1987 Camaro Z28 |
|
06-19-2020, 06:37 PM | #22 |
Account Suspended
Drives: 2017 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: May 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,692
|
Mustnag GT. Cheap car that can be upgraded.
Mustnag GT PP. Slower than the Mustnag GT in a straight line. Slightly faster than the Mustnag around a track. Not worth even talking about. Waste of money for those who want to mod. Mustnag GT PP2. Still slower than the Mustnag GT in a straight line. Costs even more than the PP. Significantly faster than the GT and GT PP around a track but only 1 time. Bullitt. Costs even more than the Mustnag GT PP2. Slower around a track than the Mustnag GT PP2. Slower than the Mustnag GT in a straight line. Has 20 more HP than the GT, GT PP, and GT PP2...and some de-badged. GT350. Remarkably slower than the Mustang GT in a straight line. Marginally faster than the 1 lap wonder GT PP2. Costs more than a C8. Notable that it manages to beat all the others around a track. GT350R. For $73K you can buy a Mustnag that is more expensive than ZL1, ZLE, C8, and C8 Z51...but still be slower than a $29K Mustnag GT in a straight line. Can beat the other Mustnags around a track. Can't beat any of the cheaper competition at anything. Sounds pretty cool. GT500. Cheaper than a GT350R. Fastest Mustnag in a straight line. NOT the fastest Mustnag around a track. GT500 CF. $93K. Lost more than it has won. Raced a Subaru. Upcoming Mach1: Same HP as the Bullitt. Suspension equal to a PP1.5-ish type something or another. Will have coolers which will allow it to lose more than once around a track. Will probably cost about $63K if not more. Auto or manual. Will probably tie the $29K GT. Will lose to anything above the PP2 around a track. Will not beat any GM car that costs over $60K...at anything. So this is what people are getting excited about? Seriously? Ford throws some stuff around, slaps a different badge on it, ups the price, and everyone criticizes GM for not doing the same thing? What will the Mach 1 actually beat. I doubt it beats the SLE around a track. The auto version might be slightly faster in a straight line. But it won't touch anything GM has in the same price range. I mean, maybe GM should take the LT4, remove the blower, throw it on a SLE, give it a different hood and front, call it a "Z28", ad sell them. I'm not impressed. I do not find any of this exciting. People will probably pay markups for this just like they did for the Bullitts. And it will be just as disappointing but more expensively disappointing. |
06-19-2020, 08:04 PM | #23 | |
Drives: HBM ZLE Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: In the garage
Posts: 799
|
Quote:
|
|
06-19-2020, 09:37 PM | #24 | |
Drives: 2021 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,198
|
Quote:
2019 Shelby GT350: 12.3 @ 119 mph (C&D) 2018 Mustang GT M6: 12.6 @ 115+ mph (C&D) 2018 PP2: 12.6 @ 114 mph (extra aero slows the mph down) (C&D) 2016 Shelby GT350R: 12.2 @ 119 mph even w/ the aero (C&D) msrp $63,495 (around $12k cheaper than the Z28 when it came out but faster around a track AND in a straight line, and way more livable) 2018 GT A10: 12.1 @ 120 mph (C&D). The GT350 isn't remarkably slower than the A10 GT, it's 2 tenths slower in the 1/4 mile (and only 1 tenth for the R), and that's only because it's an M6. The trap speed is only 1 mph behind the A10 GT, which is pretty close, not remarkably slower than an A10 GT. Hypothetically, give the GT350 the A10, and it's a 11.7/8 @ 123 mph car. Right on the ZL1's heels but down 120+ hp. The Mach 1 isn't a PP1.5...it's not a PP1 or PP2. It's more of a hybrid between all the Mustangs PP1, PP2, GT350, GT500. It has some chassis and aero components from the GT350 and GT500. It has cooling from those. It's likely going to be about as fast as a GT350 around a track and likely quicker than a PP2. It has the GT350 intake and trans. Even though it will cost more than an SLE, people will still buy it because, unlike you, most buyers care more than just about bragging about the gnats ass of times around a track that they'll never be capable of reproducing.
__________________
2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
2022 GR Supra 3.0 Past: 2018 Mustang GT Premium w/ PP1, MR, and A10 2007 MazdaSpeed3 1995 Pontiac Trans Am 1987 Camaro Z28 |
|
06-19-2020, 10:28 PM | #25 | |
Account Suspended
Drives: 2017 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: May 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,692
|
Quote:
|
|
06-20-2020, 09:22 AM | #26 | |
Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Lakeland, Florida
Posts: 416
|
Quote:
I had to ditch my last convertible because of recurring skin cancer b.s., but I refused to completely surrender. Sunroof is open all the time pissing off my wife and dermatologist!
__________________
Gary
2017 2SS A8 White, Bolt-Ons, Prayed Upon |
|
06-20-2020, 11:33 AM | #27 | |
|
Quote:
I originally chose the Camaro over the Mustang for that very reason. All it had was an expensive silly glass roof. Good choice for me. As to track times it is pretty much a wash. But in the Mustang I feel like I am driving a good handling car. (I have driven many before the last refresh) But in the Camaro I feel like I am driving a sports car. It reminds me of my 2007 TT BMW 3 series with a stonkin Chevy small block. That BMW is part of the C&D G.O.A.T. article. Does it get better than that? I am very happy my M6 LT1 with tires is faster than a stock M6 Coyote with similar tires.I am hoping to get my M6 LT1 with DRs, a Rotofab dry and a stock tune into the high 11s so I at least have a chance with the A10 cars. But while we have all these fun discussions, isn't having fun with your car the real reason we buy them?
__________________
"Democracy Dies in Darkness" |
|
06-20-2020, 02:16 PM | #28 | |
Drives: 2017 SS 1LE, 2016 1SS (previous) Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Metro-Detroit
Posts: 1,863
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|