[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Yep, my Tesla Model 3 Performance would roast my ZL1 to 60mph but then the ZL1 would start pulling on it pretty hard until we both cross the 1/4 mile at about the same mid 11s timeframe. The Tesla would trap at about 116mph and the ZL1 should be ~125mph. This is where gearing of ICE provides an advantage over a single speed EV trans as speed increases. Even my slower Standard Range Model 3 will take my ZL1 until about 30-40mph or so. So, on the street EVs will be king of the stoplight.

I agree that most who are dissing on EVs will be very surprised at how quick they are and what it feels like to have a single speed transmission with no need to shift or get into the torque sweet spot.

What EVs lack right now is the drama you get from ICE based performance vehicles. The exhaust note, the burnouts, the drive modes, the engagement from rowing your own gears or flipping the paddles, relaxing the nannies so the car is more playful, etc. That said, I am interested in something like the C8 E-Ray, where you can combine some of the benefits of electric instant torque with that of the V8 engine.

And hopefully sooner or later the Model S Plaid's motor technology will some day trickle down cause that thing just goes without the typical running out of power in the high end.... Or multi-geared transmission will have to happen as well.

What I have seen when it comes to anti-EV talk is not realizing how fast they can be, it's not understanding the day to day operation of an EV. They try to compare it to operating an ICE vehicle or how they charge their phones or laptops. They hear how an EV charging at home can take 8 hours at 240V from 0-100%, yet that is not how you operate an EV. You don't do low SoC( State of Charge) to High SoC. You don't charge to 100%( with the exception of new RWD Model 3's with the LFP battery) unless for road trips and you don't drain it down to 10% before plugging back in( again road trips being somewhat of an exception to your personal comfort). I keep my Model 3 LR at 60%( summer) to 65%( winter) since my commute will have me arrive back home at 45-47% SoC and then plug back in and have it charge at off peak hours. I have used 293 kw of energy so far and at 15 cents per kwh, it has only cost me $44 to go 1300 miles.

It's a different mindset. Now EV's are still not practical for everyone right now and I am in no way trying to push EV's on people. But there are a lot of misconceptions with EV's.

[Puddin]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

I had my dashcam running when an 18-wheeler hauling gravel was making a turn around a mix master with "clover" turns. His lane was supposed to yield to my lane which was just exiting the highway, but this asshat tried to go faster until he figured he was coming too fast and I was already in the lane. He applied his brakes, his load shifted, and gravel peppered the passenger side of my car. I called the police and followed him for about 5 miles but the police would not dispatch anyone while the 18-wheeler refused to stop. I even got the trailer's license plate on my dashcam. I called my insurance company hoping that they would pursue the idiot, but all they did was charge me my $500 deductible for a $1700 paint job. This happened a few months after I purchased my vehicle new in 2016. Geico (my insurance company at the time) claimed that even though I had recorded the incident, that they wouldn't pursue the driver. They figured it was cheaper to just hit my policy with the damage costs. I traded that vehicle in just yesterday and still took a hit on it financially as CarFax listed the insurance claim as an "accident". Have been off of Geico ever since.



I think I may have to become an ambassador to the EV market, even with my lowly, sad Leaf. The instant torque is something that needs to be experienced by even the most die-hard ICE fan. If the EV industry can find a way to improve charging time while keeping things safe, I think that ICE's days are even shorter than we think. My SS Sedan, and now my ZL1 have a great feel under hard acceleration, but they still both take time to get into their TQ band. The Leaf is just instantaneous. I will say that the torque steer is quite annoying, but I love the feel of squirting that silly car ahead of some BMW 3-series that pulled up beside me at the light because he figured he could jump ahead of me to make the turn he wants from the lane I'm in. Being dickish to a BMW driver attempting a dickish move is what it's all about.





I don't know, considering the new Nissan Z has a TTV6 and will have similar performance numbers to the ZL1 per this article I don't think we should be too quick to dismiss V6's. I was tempted to jump onto a CT4-V blackwing, but I figure if I'm going to have the performance I want, I also want the loud bark of a proper V8, and the CT5-V blackwing's cost for the same engine that's in the Camaro didn't make sense to me. It will be sad to see another V8 gone, but if you can get the same performance with a savings on fuel economy, that tends to be the "sexy" thing these days. My question would be durability, but given that it's a Stellantis durability is already out the window.

Rise of the imports again hopefully like it was back in the early 90s. Also you can take out Stellantis and put the word "American" in for that last sentence because the big three all have some bad faults.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Yep, my Tesla Model 3 Performance would roast my ZL1 to 60mph but then the ZL1 would start pulling on it pretty hard until we both cross the 1/4 mile at about the same mid 11s timeframe. The Tesla would trap at about 116mph and the ZL1 should be ~125mph. This is where gearing of ICE provides an advantage over a single speed EV trans as speed increases. Even my slower Standard Range Model 3 will take my ZL1 until about 30-40mph or so. So, on the street EVs will be king of the stoplight.

I agree that most who are dissing on EVs will be very surprised at how quick they are and what it feels like to have a single speed transmission with no need to shift or get into the torque sweet spot.

What EVs lack right now is the drama you get from ICE based performance vehicles. The exhaust note, the burnouts, the drive modes, the engagement from rowing your own gears or flipping the paddles, relaxing the nannies so the car is more playful, etc. That said, I am interested in something like the C8 E-Ray, where you can combine some of the benefits of electric instant torque with that of the V8 engine.

And that's why EVs are great daily drivers, and Camaros are great for "less legal" shenanigans (at a track of course).

I know that two cars isn't an option for many individuals, but to knock the practicality of EV, I honestly think that it's more than just regular discourse. I put it up there with people that think wearing a mask in a privately owned business is an infringement of their human rights, in that I honestly think that some people just have their heels dug in because they think "EV" and they lump it all in with everything from a certain political leaning.

I'm all for having a rational discussion about the limitations and the problem with spending money on EV infrastructure if after we spend all that money we don't have much to show for it, but you can't have those discussions if everything begins from a place of irrationality. I think if we really started focusing on the real issues and not the hyperbole nor the conjecture that people with hidden agendas are serving up, we might actually start to make real strides. But when you have some sections of the population that believe drinking your own urine will make you immune to Covid, where in the hell do you even start?

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

And hopefully sooner or later the Model S Plaid's motor technology will some day trickle down cause that thing just goes without the typical running out of power in the high end.... Or multi-geared transmission will have to happen as well.

What I have seen when it comes to anti-EV talk is not realizing how fast they can be, it's not understanding the day to day operation of an EV. They try to compare it to operating an ICE vehicle or how they charge their phones or laptops. They hear how an EV charging at home can take 8 hours at 240V from 0-100%, yet that is not how you operate an EV. You don't do low SoC( State of Charge) to High SoC. You don't charge to 100%( with the exception of new RWD Model 3's with the LFP battery) unless for road trips and you don't drain it down to 10% before plugging back in( again road trips being somewhat of an exception to your personal comfort). I keep my Model 3 LR at 60%( summer) to 65%( winter) since my commute will have me arrive back home at 45-47% SoC and then plug back in and have it charge at off peak hours. I have used 293 kw of energy so far and at 15 cents per kwh, it has only cost me $44 to go 1300 miles.

It's a different mindset. Now EV's are still not practical for everyone right now and I am in no way trying to push EV's on people. But there are a lot of misconceptions with EV's.

Well said. Definitely a lot of misconceptions. If you own one you know.

It is strange. I get to drive these cars back to back all the time. They both entertain in different ways.

Without question, the Tesla is the better daily driver. Not only because of the fuel savings. It is actually more enjoyable to drive when dealing with traffic. One pedal driving with regen braking is fantastic, brake hold as you come to a complete stop. The instant torque never gets old and is well suited to city driving where you point and shoot all around. You don't generate a lot of heat or waste lots of energy while you are idle. For example, you don't feel guilty or concern yourself with fuel cost if you need to idle somewhere for an extended period of time. There is none of this start/stop or cylinder deactivation garbage we see on vehicles now. For the folks that appreciate the quiet smooth ride of say a Lexus, your run of the mill EV will be even more silent and offer smoother power delivery.

The problem right now for enthusiasts like most of us is that an EV won't scratch that itch we have for performance cars. A performance EV can't tickle all the senses right now. Furthermore, EVs have a way of delivering unbelievable performance with no drama. Watch a Tesla Model S Plaid, it will be the most unexciting 9 sec 1/4 mile you have ever seen in your life. When you start putting drive units on each wheel and get the benefits of next gen traction control you just plant your foot and no wheel spin, no exhaust, no shifting...just G-force, with increasing wind and tire noise.




IMO, in order for performance EVs capture the hearts of enthusiasts they will need to focus on aggressive styling, relaxed nannies, drive modes, sporty interiors with proper seats, sporty gauges, HUD, mag-ride suspension. Preferable RWD only and leverage the weight of the rear drive unit to create mid-engine handling dynamics. Track Mode, battery cooling and 250kW or higher fast charging for track folks.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Well said. Definitely a lot of misconceptions. If you own one you know.

It is strange. I get to drive these cars back to back all the time. They both entertain in different ways.

Without question, the Tesla is the better daily driver. Not only because of the fuel savings. It is actually more enjoyable to drive when dealing with traffic. One pedal driving with regen braking is fantastic, brake hold as you come to a complete stop. The instant torque never gets old and is well suited to city driving where you point and shoot all around. You don't generate a lot of heat or waste lots of energy while you are idle. For example, you don't feel guilty or concern yourself with fuel cost if you need to idle somewhere for an extended period of time. There is none of this start/stop or cylinder deactivation garbage we see on vehicles now. For the folks that appreciate the quiet smooth ride of say a Lexus, your run of the mill EV will be even more silent and offer smoother power delivery.

The problem right now for enthusiasts like most of us is that an EV won't scratch that itch we have for performance cars. A performance EV can't tickle all the senses right now. Furthermore, EVs have a way of delivering unbelievable performance with no drama. Watch a Tesla Model S Plaid, it will be the most unexciting 9 sec 1/4 mile you have ever seen in your life. When you start putting drive units on each wheel and get the benefits of next gen traction control you just plant your foot and no wheel spin, no exhaust, no shifting...just G-force, with increasing wind and tire noise.




IMO, in order for performance EVs capture the hearts of enthusiasts they will need to focus on aggressive styling, relaxed nannies, drive modes, sporty interiors with proper seats, sporty gauges, HUD, mag-ride suspension. Preferable RWD only and leverage the weight of the rear drive unit to create mid-engine handling dynamics. Track Mode, battery cooling and 250kW or higher fast charging for track folks.

So the Leaf allows for 1-pedal driving as well, and funny enough I just recently found that if I go to my local Costco (about 20 miles away) and use the highway, I get there a few minutes sooner but my battery is more depleted than if I take the backroads. The real funny part is that I don't take it easy at the stoplights when I go through the backroads.



https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us...29-e-copo.html

And yes, I know the first thing out of peoples' mouths will be "sounds so sedate". Sure it does, and I can relate. I bought my manual ZL1 because I wanted all the things that make my "reptile brain" drool. An EV pinning me to my seat gives my brain similar slobber-traits.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

So the Leaf allows for 1-pedal driving as well, and funny enough I just recently found that if I go to my local Costco (about 20 miles away) and use the highway, I get there a few minutes sooner but my battery is more depleted than if I take the backroads. The real funny part is that I don't take it easy at the stoplights when I go through the backroads.

Indeed, highway driving is the range killer for EVs. They do much better in the stop and go when they can take advantage of regen braking. On the highway, you really need to stay close to 65mph as your range will drop quite at higher speeds. This is one of the reasons why you see EVs designed with such low aerodynamic drag and low roll resistance tires. Michelin has some new Pilot Sport EV tires coming out now.

https://www.michelinman.com/auto/tir...pilot-sport-ev

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

I don't know, considering the new Nissan Z has a TTV6 and will have similar performance numbers to the ZL1 per this article I don't think we should be too quick to dismiss V6's. I was tempted to jump onto a CT4-V blackwing, but I figure if I'm going to have the performance I want, I also want the loud bark of a proper V8, and the CT5-V blackwing's cost for the same engine that's in the Camaro didn't make sense to me. It will be sad to see another V8 gone, but if you can get the same performance with a savings on fuel economy, that tends to be the "sexy" thing these days. My question would be durability, but given that it's a Stellantis durability is already out the window.

I think Dodge might find out that their Charger/Challenger buyers are buying an engine more than a car. There's a reason their sales keep increasing...and its not the nearly 20 year old platform.

Downsized turbo doesn't necessarily save you on gas compared to NA (particularly if the turbo engine needs premium). Power takes fuel regardless of the configuration. They may do better on the EPA test cycle because of all the idle time, but in the real world under load, the lower compression ratios cancel out some of the efficiency advantage of smaller displacement, and having to run dead rich whenever the boost comes on literally sends the rest (and maybe then some) out the tail pipe.

As for durability, the only way to convince me that downsizing and turbocharging won't be an expensive problem for me would be an unlimited lifetime warranty on the turbo-related components. I tend to keep cars long term, so how a car ages is a big deal for me. I have no interest in shelling out thousands for a new turbo down the road (same goes for the batteries on EVs). My impression is that high boost turbo engines lose power faster with age as well.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

I don't know, considering the new Nissan Z has a TTV6 and will have similar performance numbers to the ZL1 per this article I don't think we should be too quick to dismiss V6's. I was tempted to jump onto a CT4-V blackwing, but I figure if I'm going to have the performance I want, I also want the loud bark of a proper V8, and the CT5-V blackwing's cost for the same engine that's in the Camaro didn't make sense to me. It will be sad to see another V8 gone, but if you can get the same performance with a savings on fuel economy, that tends to be the "sexy" thing these days. My question would be durability, but given that it's a Stellantis durability is already out the window.

No, I am not saying it will not maybe be a monster possibly. But it is getting away from the roots, so to speak. And that might kill it. Or maybe there is enough "younger" people who just do not give a shit about V8 sounds and would rather just stomp you to 60 every chance they can get.

Seems to me like there is a lot more stoplight racing than twities or 1/4 mile racing these days. Most people jusr seem to care about "what is does on the street".

Time will tell.

And you do realize, you are talking to a guy who bought an expensive Chevy that blew up?

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Well said. Definitely a lot of misconceptions. If you own one you know.

It is strange. I get to drive these cars back to back all the time. They both entertain in different ways.

Without question, the Tesla is the better daily driver. Not only because of the fuel savings. It is actually more enjoyable to drive when dealing with traffic. One pedal driving with regen braking is fantastic, brake hold as you come to a complete stop. The instant torque never gets old and is well suited to city driving where you point and shoot all around. You don't generate a lot of heat or waste lots of energy while you are idle. For example, you don't feel guilty or concern yourself with fuel cost if you need to idle somewhere for an extended period of time. There is none of this start/stop or cylinder deactivation garbage we see on vehicles now. For the folks that appreciate the quiet smooth ride of say a Lexus, your run of the mill EV will be even more silent and offer smoother power delivery.

Yep. I know the I-95 shutdown in VA created a nice story about how a family that was in an EV went asking for blankets because their battery was almost dead, that created some nice anti-EV discussion. Yet, the EV should either match or beat the ICE vehicle( 100% charge vs full tank of gas) in that situation depending on PTC or heat pump. Take my Long Range with a 82 kwh battery with 79 kwh usable, the heat pump uses around 800 watts per hour. That's over 4 days worth juice to keep the car warm.

The problem right now for enthusiasts like most of us is that an EV won't scratch that itch we have for performance cars. A performance EV can't tickle all the senses right now. Furthermore, EVs have a way of delivering unbelievable performance with no drama. Watch a Tesla Model S Plaid, it will be the most unexciting 9 sec 1/4 mile you have ever seen in your life. When you start putting drive units on each wheel and get the benefits of next gen traction control you just plant your foot and no wheel spin, no exhaust, no shifting...just G-force, with increasing wind and tire noise.

IMO, in order for performance EVs capture the hearts of enthusiasts they will need to focus on aggressive styling, relaxed nannies, drive modes, sporty interiors with proper seats, sporty gauges, HUD, mag-ride suspension. Preferable RWD only and leverage the weight of the rear drive unit to create mid-engine handling dynamics. Track Mode, battery cooling and 250kW or higher fast charging for track folks.

Definitely! I miss my Camaro for what the V8 provided that the Tesla just can't( NVH and handling). But I knew I couldn't bring myself to keep the Camaro as a daily driver and would need a more practical daily driver eventually. I came to the realization that I didn't want to maintain two cars in my current situation and with the used car market last year, made the move. But the Model 3 LR provides the acceleration and lower operating costs( as stated before, $44 for 1300 miles in the Tesla where Camaro would have been $265 with current gas prices in my area for 93).

But Tesla certainly makes up in other areas that is missing from that V8. I love the tech in the Tesla and love the fact it gets constantly updated. From useful features to silly and fun stuff like light show.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

No, I am not saying it will not maybe be a monster possibly. But it is getting away from the roots, so to speak. And that might kill it. Or maybe there is enough "younger" people who just do not give a shit about V8 sounds and would rather just stomp you to 60 every chance they can get.

Seems to me like there is a lot more stoplight racing than twities or 1/4 mile racing these days. Most people jusr seem to care about "what is does on the street".

Time will tell.

And you do realize, you are talking to a guy who bought an expensive Chevy that blew up?

lol, well the guy that took a little jab at you had a Chevy where the transmission blew at just over 36,000 miles. Of course I don't believe that any manufacturer has some sort of "secret formula" for creating great cars. The "secret formula" tends to mean "costs more to produce" as it's a difficult proposition to offer quality and low price unless you're bare bones with accessories, and gouge people when they start to option out their cars. Hell, now that I think about it when I bought my 06 GTO new off the lot, it was running on 7 cylinders as an ignition coil was bad from the get go.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

lol, well the guy that took a little jab at you had a Chevy where the transmission blew at just over 36,000 miles. Of course I don't believe that any manufacturer has some sort of "secret formula" for creating great cars. The "secret formula" tends to mean "costs more to produce" as it's a difficult proposition to offer quality and low price unless you're bare bones with accessories, and gouge people when they start to option out their cars. Hell, now that I think about it when I bought my 06 GTO new off the lot, it was running on 7 cylinders as an ignition coil was bad from the get go.

LOL, my 2004 GTO was the most solid car I have ever owned. I kind of wish I still had it

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

LOL, my 2004 GTO was the most solid car I have ever owned. I kind of wish I still had it

After the ignition coil was replaced, my 06 was pretty solid. My SS Sedan was also solid, granted I put less than 40K miles on it. I found the quality of my Holden products to be great. I'm hoping my ZL1 stays true for years to come.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

After the ignition coil was replaced, my 06 was pretty solid. My SS Sedan was also solid, granted I put less than 40K miles on it. I found the quality of my Holden products to be great. I'm hoping my ZL1 stays true for years to come.

Me too! Beautiful Awesome car!

[Trochoidal]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Me too! Beautiful Awesome car!

Wasn’t there a 20k unit limit on all of the “Holden” cars? GTO, G8 and the SS?

Hey FF, this is the video to watch! Man this is exhilarating!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jkQmXueWIio