[cwebster]

Originally Posted by Infern0

That's interesting. When you say most of the time you're in track mode, does that mean you're usually at the track, or you daily drive in that mode?

It's not my daily driver. 90% of the miles are to/from/at the track. I sometimes drive my ZL1 around town if I haven't been to the track in a while. It's my chariot when I take a lady out for a date too. Other than that and the occasional test drive, it sits parked in my driveway under the car cover. On the road I like the responsiveness I get in track mode so that's what I normally set before I leave the driveway.

Originally Posted by Infern0

I have noticed a slight difference between daily driving in sport and touring, though I haven't done it enough to really describe it, just that it crossed my mind at the time. I also didn't put any thought in to it because I thought it was coincidence, thinking those modes didn't impact actual drivability other than steering, suspension, and sound. Though I've never tried to daily drive in track.

For me I don't see the point in the other drive modes. I seldom drive it in bad weather - never in Winter conditions. Sport isn't sporty enough for me. Never occurred to me there might be driveability issues in other modes either.

Originally Posted by travislambert

That's interesting. The daily driver portion of the issue has been a little tough for me to nail down.

There have been at least a few ZL1 M6 owners say they haven't yet experienced the daily driver issue. I know at first, I was blaming myself thinking I wasn't being smooth with the clutch. It wasn't until later I realized it was the car and not me. But in my mind, I'm not satisfied that a difference in perception is the only explanation.

I too have considered the potential for software differences. I also think road conditions play into it a little. It's more easily reproducible on a hill. So people who mostly drive on flat roads are less likely to have the issue. Also, a small amount debris, gravel, etc. will cause the rear wheels to slip a slight amount and the car will nearly stall even though it's barely slipping. In WV, we have lots of hills and debris on the roads, so maybe it's just the perfect storm here.

I certainly appreciate your input though. The more input we get the easier it'll be to narrow the problem.

The way you describe your issues, it doesn't sound like a perception problem. If the ECM is pulling timing at those low speeds and RPMs with little or no clutch slip, there has to be something malfunctioning.

Granted, there are no real hills here in Easter NC; certainly not like WV roads. Still, if the problem were widespread I'd expect to see some manifestation of it here too.

Good luck. I hope you can nail it down soon.

--Cal

[travislambert]

Ann from GM contacted me today. They want to put a data recorder on my car.

I'm having mixed feelings about this.

I feel like they should be able to easily reproduce the problem on their end, or at a minimum use what I sent to identify the potentially problematic area of the software. (And maybe they have, but I didn't get many details in the email.)

The other part of me wants to help, although I'd be really nervous about letting a dealership touch my car. The last time I had my car at the dealer it only had 200 miles on it and the guy was crawling in and out with filthy mechanic clothes... no seat covers... didn't even bother to wash the dirt and grease from his hands.... but that's a different story.

Anyway, I told her it'd be awesome if one of the engineers could just bring the hardware to Camaro Fest. I'd be willing to help them gather some data, and they could probably find some volunteers to help gather data for the launching problem as well.

I'll keep you guys posted.

[flyinlow]

In my experience going back to the early 2000's, this is the best method for GM to record what's happening and in the cases I know of (various corvette issues) the recorder was indispensable in figuring out the problem. Understood that you don't want someone messing around with the car, but its the best option now. Good luck!

[KyleL]

Originally Posted by travislambert

Ann from GM contacted me today. They want to put a data recorder on my car.

I'm having mixed feelings about this.

I feel like they should be able to easily reproduce the problem on their end, or at a minimum use what I sent to identify the potentially problematic area of the software. (And maybe they have, but I didn't get many details in the email.)

The other part of me wants to help, although I'd be really nervous about letting a dealership touch my car. The last time I had my car at the dealer it only had 200 miles on it and the guy was crawling in and out with filthy mechanic clothes... no seat covers... didn't even bother to wash the dirt and grease from his hands.... but that's a different story.

Anyway, I told her it'd be awesome if one of the engineers could just bring the hardware to Camaro Fest. I'd be willing to help them gather some data, and they could probably find some volunteers to help gather data for the launching problem as well.

I'll keep you guys posted.

So its something that you'll have to take to a dealership and let them datalog it? Is it possible to just let them hook it up and ride with you to do the logging and then let you drive back home while they send it off for analysis?

I'd probably take that deal if I were you and I think it's awesome GM is concerned enough to at least go that far in helping us. If you told this to ford they probably just tell you to go buy a dodge or GM if you aren't happy lol.

[travislambert]

Originally Posted by KyleL

So its something that you'll have to take to a dealership and let them datalog it? Is it possible to just let them hook it up and ride with you to do the logging and then let you drive back home while they send it off for analysis?

I think the dealership was just supposed to install the recorder. Hopefully it wouldn't be much more complicated than plugging a device into the OBDII port.

From that point, I believe I'd drive to reproduce the problem and return the recorder when finished.

I guess my issue is not knowing whether they even tried to reproduce the problem on their end. If the did, and couldn't...well fair enough. In my mind though, I don't know how that'd happen. All they need to do is try to take off gently with some fine gravel under the tires and the car will nearly stall. I think speaking to one of their engineers prior to installing the recorder would help me tremendously.

Originally Posted by KyleL

If you told this to ford they probably just tell you to go buy a dodge or GM if you aren't happy lol.

To be fair to Ford, their car launches fine. So would you rather have a car that just works or one that doesn't work with helpful engineers?... lol (jk)

[bobby35ny]

Originally Posted by travislambert

Ann from GM contacted me today. They want to put a data recorder on my car.

I'm having mixed feelings about this.

I feel like they should be able to easily reproduce the problem on their end, or at a minimum use what I sent to identify the potentially problematic area of the software. (And maybe they have, but I didn't get many details in the email.)

The other part of me wants to help, although I'd be really nervous about letting a dealership touch my car. The last time I had my car at the dealer it only had 200 miles on it and the guy was crawling in and out with filthy mechanic clothes... no seat covers... didn't even bother to wash the dirt and grease from his hands.... but that's a different story.

Anyway, I told her it'd be awesome if one of the engineers could just bring the hardware to Camaro Fest. I'd be willing to help them gather some data, and they could probably find some volunteers to help gather data for the launching problem as well.

I'll keep you guys posted.

I think the newer recorders hook up to the port and sits in your cup holder.
-Bobby

[KyleL]

Originally Posted by travislambert

I think the dealership was just supposed to install the recorder. Hopefully it wouldn't be much more complicated than plugging a device into the OBDII port.

From that point, I believe I'd drive to reproduce the problem and return the recorder when finished.

I guess my issue is not knowing whether they even tried to reproduce the problem on their end. If the did, and couldn't...well fair enough. In my mind though, I don't know how that'd happen. All they need to do is try to take off gently with some fine gravel under the tires and the car will nearly stall. I think speaking to one of their engineers prior to installing the recorder would help me tremendously.

That's even better! i do notice that upon initial startup, when I reverse out the garage into the street and engage first gear, I do notice it takes a little more throttle than normal to prevent it from falling down and even slightly bucking in some cases. i notice it most when trying to launch, in getting what everyone else is, the car falling down the taking off. If it can be fixed with a tune, then that would at least offer some hope.

Originally Posted by travislambert

To be fair to Ford, their car launches fine. So would you rather have a car that just works or one that doesn't work with helpful engineers?... lol (jk)

I'd rather push my zl1!!!!

[ELS1]

They probably want a baseline of your configuration when this happens so they can start from there. Also, it's probably part of their process before they can spend man-hours trying to do some type of RCA to figure this out.

[bobby35ny]

Maybe we all should do youtube videos to show what the car is doing..........
They gotta know the Zo6's and Zl1's bog like crazy out of the hole.

They want to probably see the drivability issue, not the launch issue.

[travislambert]

Originally Posted by KyleL

That's even better! i do notice that upon initial startup, when I reverse out the garage into the street and engage first gear, I do notice it takes a little more throttle than normal to prevent it from falling down and even slightly bucking in some cases.

Thank You! It makes me feel good when another person acknowledges this as a problem. It really should be a simple fix to soften up the response to wheel slip at very low speeds. The whole problem here is the slightest amount of wheel slip (or error in the calculation) triggers an aggressive deduction in spark timing. As a driver you have to train yourself to wait for the timing to come back or overcompensate by slipping the clutch with extra throttle.

I like that you used the word "bucking". I know exactly where you're coming from. Sometimes it falls flat and sometimes it bucks.

[bobby35ny]

Originally Posted by travislambert

Thank You! It makes me feel good when another person acknowledges this as a problem. It really should be a simple fix to soften up the response to wheel slip at very low speeds. The whole problem here is the slightest amount of wheel slip (or error in the calculation) triggers an aggressive deduction in spark timing. As a driver you have to train yourself to wait for the timing to come back or overcompensate by slipping the clutch with extra throttle.

I like that you used the word "bucking". I know exactly where you're coming from. Sometimes it falls flat and sometimes it bucks.

Perfect way to describe it for sure!!!

I'm sure its happening to everyone, How the guys who drive the CTF cars and the Camaro Team cars don't see what we see is simply crazy to me!!

[travislambert]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

Maybe we all should do youtube videos to show what the car is doing..........
They gotta know the Zo6's and Zl1's bog like crazy out of the hole.

They want to probably see the drivability issue, not the launch issue.

Couldn't hurt, but there are lots of videos like this already.... pretty much every 1/4 mile 6th Gen ZL1 M6 video I've ever seen on youtube.

Hell, even the MotorTrend H2H with the GT350R shows how badly the Mustang beats the Camaro out of the hole.

The M6 ZL1 vs Hellcat videos that are out there are down right embarrassing. This one comes to mind:



Some fault can be put on the driver in the early races, but the last race at ~3:20 completely sums up how this car launches on the strip.

The Hellcat was out what, about 3 years prior to the 6th Gen ZL1... There's no excuse for GM not one-upping them 3 years later.

[KyleL]

Originally Posted by travislambert

Thank You! It makes me feel good when another person acknowledges this as a problem. It really should be a simple fix to soften up the response to wheel slip at very low speeds. The whole problem here is the slightest amount of wheel slip (or error in the calculation) triggers an aggressive deduction in spark timing. As a driver you have to train yourself to wait for the timing to come back or overcompensate by slipping the clutch with extra throttle.

I like that you used the word "bucking". I know exactly where you're coming from. Sometimes it falls flat and sometimes it bucks.

It's definitely an issue, more on the performance side for me. I've notice twice when rolling into the throttle in 2nd gear, the car would start "bucking", but it was when I started to accel in a very low traction situation with the back end skipping on a not so smooth surface and the nannies on and it felt like the traction system was over compensating a ton, so I just kinda wrote it off as that and always make sure all nannies are off when attempting that again. That's when I noticed the bucking but I definitely have issues with it falling flat on the launch.

As far as the initial take off in first gear, now that I'm aware of how the car behaves on that initial take off from the driveway, I just apply a little more throttle and come out easier on the clutch and it works just fine. Again, it was just something that I've learned to try and adapt to but it's definitely reassuring to know that it's not just my car and that GM is offering to help.

[Repman]

I thought I was 16 learning to drive a stick again. the bad thing is it is so random sometimes it leaves smoothly and the next light you can do virtually the same thing and it falls flat on its face and almost stalls if you don't clutch it in time. I sure hope they find a fix for this it really takes the fun factor out of driving the car.