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Old 12-17-2023, 03:57 PM   #169
radz28
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Originally Posted by laynlo15 View Post
Geez, you are going deep into this tuning. Great job
Not much further than I've tried in the past, but yeah. After all the help you, and the many others have given me, I felt like I owed trying to complete this little journey, out of respect, in my own weird way. And that brings me to a, pretty much, final thought on this endeavor:

For my combination, I am now pretty certain I have reached the end of the road, as far as I can tell, and within the bounds of my experience and understanding. I know it could be perfected by a few guys here, but they've helped a lot already, and I'm not made of money.

So - my tentative conclusion: I don't have enough cam (lobe, specifically) to use this method with my combination. The person I found this method from told me he didn't have limitations I'm finding, and I think it's because I don't have a cam, like most people probably do before adding a 2650, like I have (which I already covered why). I'm not making big power, but it must be beyond the limits of the fuel system, even with the DSX low-side I added. I have to stay with OEM for the entire long block, so if he's right, I think my conclusion is sound.

I was hoping to test, this last drive, in the low 50s, but my phone lied, and I was late, and drove in the bottom 60s. Commanding a maximum of 22MPa, and raising the middle of the BASE DESIRED RAIL PRESSURE zone to a few MPa higher than stock, I still had pressure issues if I was pedaling (which was not why I'm coming to this conclusion - just trying to state I could not find a good compensation for that, confirming earlier posts why I was having this issue). BUT - my IPW was still just below 5.0ms the whole WOT hit (from 2000-6500 RPMs), and probably because I was commanding 22MPa of RAIL PRESSURE. The problem, and what is driving me to conclude my testing, is my SOI/EOI. Even though I took advice, and commanded 370* in the base SOI table (and zero'd ALCOHOL ADDER), I was still showing +375* and my EOI was dropping from a comfortable +200* to 190. With these injector events occurring too close to when they can't/shouldn't, and it not even being as cold as I'd want to try to go (not that I would really even try WOT at 50*s anyways) and fueling demand not being reached in this drive also - I'm feeling better about running these tests to their conclusion, and that is now. I thought my last chance at saving this method was with injection timing, knowing there wasn't much to be gained with OEM stuff, like I have, but I've stretched timing as wide as it seems reasonable. I can't find anymore to change to overcome all of this, so I think, officially, this is it. Maybe a combination with, at least, a cam lobe might work, but not a stock long block.

This is all fine. I have no regrets, and has been a big learning experience. I know I have the old fueling method to fall back on, and will be. To be clear: the TOOHIGHPSI system has been GREAT!!! I'd buy it all over again, and I know the controller isn't the most feature packed unit on the market, but pretty much fills what I would want. It would be nice to add separate PE settings for different alcohol percentages (like the E92 has), but that's minor. I have nothing but positive statements to make about it, and for THPSI and Mike, also. I've gotten LOTS of help from he and his team, and I'm equally grateful to them, and to everyone in these posts that have shared. And, again - Thank You to the biggest contributors (in no particular order): King', Josh', Megahurtz, laynlo', airtroop, and I'm sorry to anyone I'm forgeting. Thanks to all who've shared anything in my effort. If I find anything else, I'll share, but this is the end of this road, for now.
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Old 12-17-2023, 07:26 PM   #170
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The ECU will back up the SOI on its own sometimes for who knows why. Push it closer to target 360 and the ECU should keep it under 370. As for your EOI, if it is 190-200, you have plenty of room to push the SOI towards 360. You can spray a little past BDC without any issues.
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Old 12-17-2023, 07:52 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Megahurtz View Post
The ECU will back up the SOI on its own sometimes for who knows why. Push it closer to target 360 and the ECU should keep it under 370. As for your EOI, if it is 190-200, you have plenty of room to push the SOI towards 360. You can spray a little past BDC without any issues.
Hmm... Interesting. Thank you sir!!!
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Old 01-05-2024, 04:03 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Megahurtz View Post
The ECU will back up the SOI on its own sometimes for who knows why. Push it closer to target 360 and the ECU should keep it under 370. As for your EOI, if it is 190-200, you have plenty of room to push the SOI towards 360. You can spray a little past BDC without any issues.
Well... I finally got another run in the conditions I was hoping for to lean on the fuel system as much as practical. Traction was beyond sketchy but I was able to get a mostly clean hit, from about 2500 RPMs through 6500. That Mickey Thompson sway was fun... BUT - I think it was a reasonable hit. It was 54*, ambient, and my regular test track, and E content registered 75%.

Seeing a maximum of 18 psi, and 1.76 CYLINDER AIR, IPWs were a maximum of 5.0ms (most of the run was 4.8-4.9ms, until 5800 RPMs). I saw 173/174 of PRIMARY/SPLIT EOI (respectively), and SOI maximum of 366. All of that INJECTOR TIMING was at WOT, at the top of the pull.

I was commanding 356* at the INJECTORS and pulled the maximum of 5* for the ALCOHOL OFFSET. I commanded 22MPa at the RAIL. I was commanding a little rich (for a little safety margin from the REFLEX) for LAMBDA (.81) and the REFLEX was correcting to about .79. I might be a little rich on the E92 MAF (I'm going off a pre-PI MAF curve that was near ZERO-error, but on the 90mm pulley (not this 85mm upper), so since I have some correction I see the REFLEX making, I might trim a little out of the E92 MAF to just bring the DI demand down a tiny bit.

So - I'm contemplating how I might try to polish this a little. I know you guys recommended commanding 20MP RAIL PRESSURE. Because I see IPWs of 5.0ms (max), maybe that will bring it up to about 5.2. Probably not necessary, except for misfire safety, but I like that idea. I worry that might push the SOI/EOI further into the extremes though. I'm already spraying into the EXHAUST stroke a few degrees, and into COMPRESSION a few, too (well - a handful, but not much), so maybe changing RAIL PRESSURE isn't worth it (I see some others stretch to as much as 24MPa, too, and I'm not going that far, so maybe I'm worried for nothing).

There aren't many circumstances wherein I'm really going to be stressing the fueling how I currently have the tunes set up. Street driving, at these temperatures, won't get any traction, and the nearest track is closing, so it's not like I'll have anywhere that would have traction to stay in the throttle enough that I can tax fueling anyways. So - even on good tires, in the 60s, I'll be struggling less, where I'd probably tax the fueling the most. My OCD still wants to do what I can to make it right, as much as I have the ability to, so I continue to welcome any comments in light of the current information. I feel like I'm pretty much done at this point with the fueling. While it seems like I'm right at the edge of the fueling, I guess anyone willing to, ?tentatively?, confirm this stuff looks ok would ease my mind, so please feel free to comment as much as you feel like. I have just enough in the tank to switch to the way everyone else does PI tuning, so I'm going to finish these DRs trying to tune for that, lol.

Thanks to everyone who've been guiding me
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Old 01-05-2024, 05:11 PM   #173
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Honestly your numbers seem pretty solid at this point to me? Probably time to put the laptop down and go terrorize your local Hellcat owner.
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Old 01-05-2024, 07:15 PM   #174
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Honestly your numbers seem pretty solid at this point to me? Probably time to put the laptop down and go terrorize your local Hellcat owner.
WHEW!!! That makes me feel better! There are a few of those bad kittys around here, lol! THANKS!!!
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Old 01-06-2024, 07:35 AM   #175
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Yeah leave the DI side alone. 366/174 is perfect for the spray window. You have to remember, air is NOT static in the combustion chamber. So just because the exhaust valve is open 1mm when the injector starts spraying, that doesn't mean it all goes out of the exhaust valve.

If you want to lean it out a bit, you need to lean out the lambda target in the Reflex Controller. Simple as that. (Assuming you're using the closed loop feedback)

Also, keep in mind that Ethanol doesn't have as much of a power loss as gasoline does when run richer. There is a larger window because ethanol carries additional oxygen molecules compared to gasoline. I'd aim for .82-.84 lambda on your setup.
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Old 01-06-2024, 10:12 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Megahurtz View Post
Yeah leave the DI side alone. 366/174 is perfect for the spray window. You have to remember, air is NOT static in the combustion chamber. So just because the exhaust valve is open 1mm when the injector starts spraying, that doesn't mean it all goes out of the exhaust valve.

If you want to lean it out a bit, you need to lean out the lambda target in the Reflex Controller. Simple as that. (Assuming you're using the closed loop feedback)

Also, keep in mind that Ethanol doesn't have as much of a power loss as gasoline does when run richer. There is a larger window because ethanol carries additional oxygen molecules compared to gasoline. I'd aim for .82-.84 lambda on your setup.
Thanks for all that additional information Megahurtz! Is there any reason to think, if there are no mechanical or tune changes that would affect a difference, that these WOULD NOT get worse? I.E. SOI/EOI exceeding where they are now? Maybe COOLER weather or something? Im just looking for any reason to worry about the injection timing as it now stands.

Ill shift to those changes.

Whew It feels good to be at this point. I feel better about taking this as far as I had the ability to. Im sure you guys could improve on it, but seeing what I am in the Scanner seems to indicate Im pretty much right where I need to be. Thank You, again, everyone.
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Old 01-06-2024, 11:01 AM   #177
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Thanks for all that additional information Megahurtz! Is there any reason to think, if there are no mechanical or tune changes that would affect a difference, that these WOULD NOT get worse? I.E. SOI/EOI exceeding where they are now? Maybe COOLER weather or something? I’m just looking for any reason to worry about the injection timing as it now stands.

I’ll shift to those changes.

Whew… It feels good to be at this point. I feel better about taking this as far as I had the ability to. I’m sure you guys could improve on it, but seeing what I am in the Scanner seems to indicate I’m pretty much right where I need to be. Thank You, again, everyone.
I don’t want to speak for Jason, but if you tested it at 54 degrees ambient, how much colder weather would you actually drive the car in? Street traction is on the crappy side at 54 degrees, never mind 45 degrees or so… and your numbers look, in my humble opinion, safe enough where even if they went a tick leaner you’d still be fine.
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Old 01-06-2024, 12:33 PM   #178
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I dont want to speak for Jason, but if you tested it at 54 degrees ambient, how much colder weather would you actually drive the car in? Street traction is on the crappy side at 54 degrees, never mind 45 degrees or so and your numbers look, in my humble opinion, safe enough where even if they went a tick leaner youd still be fine.
That's what I was hoping to hear, because I completely agree. I'm sure there's a lot I could be missing, and was just hoping for confirmation I was on track. I have no expectation of traction at those temps on the street, and on street tires, and was just contemplating going to the next nearest track (Sonoma Raceway) on DRs in boost weather. Just confirmation I wasn't thinking or knew about missing anything
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Old 01-06-2024, 02:24 PM   #179
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I agree with Josh. If you're spray window was there in 54 degree weather, the only thing that will happen if you encounter 20 degree weather is that the ECU will keep injecting so your EOI will be lower. But you have enough room and shouldn't worry about it.
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Old 01-06-2024, 04:02 PM   #180
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Thanks Jason. I will NOT worry about it ������������
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Old 03-29-2024, 11:36 AM   #181
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03/29/24: Update

An argument could definitely be made that this should go in a build thread, but I don't have one, and think it could also be argued that this is related?

I got frustrated that a mere months after spending a lot (to me) of money on the aux' kit I didn't really want to have to use, a new drop-in dual-pump bucket came out from Katech. I made the decision to ditch the DSX Aux' kit because I never liked the fuel pick up, although it was a lot easier to do than drop the tank (and everything else related for the install), and I hated drilling a hole. Also - as expected, and stated in many places, I hated the weeping of fuel around the tank tap. Although I probably wouldn't take advantage of the OEM bucket design, my OCD never liked losing some of that OEM functionality, so I had to do it.

The installation wasn't bad, until reconnecting the hoses in the tank after dropping the new bucket in. I'm still not sure I have everything clocked correctly for the fuel level float to work right (I'll know in a few hours after I get home to fill the tank and see what the gauge says...). But reaching in around the pump module to try to plug everything back in took almost as the same amount of time as it did to drop the exhaust, driveshaft, and tank! It was NO fault of Katech, as the layout of everything is about the same as the OEM module, so I want to make that clear. It made it a little more crowded, but that is all. After finally (like 2-hours) getting everything hooked back up, it was smooth sailing again.

In addition, I decided to abandon the DSX controller, too, because the REFLEX for the PORT INJECTION can PWM-control the aux' pump, too, and I figured I could get a little more money selling an entire aux' pump kit, complete. In addition, I didn't like how hard the pump shocked the fuel system pressure when it came in, and having a THIRD TMAP harness was just a lot. So - I pulled the entire DSX aux' kit out, in full working order, and will be selling it. BUT... I had to add a fuel filter, because I learned the Katech bucket eliminated the OEM filter. I didn't want to spend more $$$ than I had to, so I started searching, but what I found was not a solution I could use. I needed something stealthy. So I put together something that fit the bill.

According to Deatschwerks, their DWFF70 (which is a -10AN in and out) would flow more than enough E85 and have the strength to hold up to high fuel pressure. Their techline said this model didn't fail out to 200-psi (it's rated at less, but it didn't fail at that point), and this one is a 5-micron, dual stage filter, so that should take care of that. Because I was already in the area where the DSX pump was, I figured I'd look there to mount the filter, and it fit like a glove. I had visualized a few versions of how I would mount the filter, hence why I got the really short one, but a longer one would fit fine in the same place. Regardless - after deciding with what version I would go with, I used nutzerts to mount it to the unibody rail, and some -8AN lines and fittings to plumb it into the OEM 3/8" lines. While the fuel filter lines I'm messing with are the only departure from the OEM system, I went -8 in case I got the balls, later, to upgrade the size of the system. But - I used PTFT lines for everything, so E85 won't be an issue.

I haven't gotten a chance to check everything yet. I still have to finish the wiring. I'm a little worried about the fuel level sender working (not tangling the in-tank hoses around it), but I'll find that out soon. You have to add a signal wire from the REFLEX output to a solid state relay (SSD), which I have decided to mount in the trunk. That's wired up to the controller, but I have to finish putting all of that back together under the engine compartment fuse box. What's nice is removing the DSX controller, so that gets rid of a little redundant clutter. As seen in some of the new photos, I accessed an existing grommet in the wheelhouse, in the trunk area. I ran the aux' pump wires and REFLEX signal wire through that grommet since it was there, and sealed it back up. I have to finish terminating the power and ground wires for the SSD, mount the SSD, and secured that harness behind all the trunk trim, on the battery side. Fingers crossed I completed the harness correctly for the REFLEX to control the aux' pump correctly. It was hard to support the silly little diode correctly (I'm certainly no electrician, so don't know of good ways to do this), so I used some back-woods engineering to facilitate that...

So - below are some pictures of the endeavor. Cut me a little slack, as I'm no professional installer or anything, lol. There are a few more details, and a lot of checking to go over, so hopefully I'll know by the end of the weekend of any success or failures. Fingers crossed.

Also - for anyone running REFLEX controllers, they just released an new software upgrade with BOOST CONTROL, INDIVIDUAL CYLINDER PORT FUEL TRIM, and some other goodies. They're all on THPSI's website (https://toohighpsi.com/products/reflex). There's also another TunerPro software update from December, too, in case you're controller needs to be updated. This may be a little off-topic, but I think it's close enough? lol.
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Old 03-29-2024, 12:34 PM   #182
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Great work! I dont blame you one bit for making the swap. That DSX aux pump is sketchy AF punching the tank below the fuel line is a big no no in my book. This will be safer and function much better.
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