Performance number for the T4 - Page 2

Danfish · 10-20-2015, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kain279

I just don't see any easy performance gains with the V6. I really think it will have the least "mod potential" of all 3 engine offerings.

I think the v6 would be better to mod then the t4. Once you do FI on the 6 mod for mod the t4 won't be able to keep up.

joecamaro53 · 10-20-2015, 09:37 AM

Since the Camaro is based on the Alpha platform also used by the Cadillac ATS, it numbers should be very similar.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...al_first_test/

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...s_20t_arrival/

These links are for an ATS coupe with manual, and sedan with six-speed automatic. The weights are slightly higher, and the '14 sedan has less torque, but the results should give you a feel for what to expect.

I'm going to go with the turbo four. Why the four?

Honestly, how often are you going to use 450 horsepower if this is your daily driver? Yeah, it's fun, but unless you have to get on the Interstate every day and need to race tractor-trailers for gaps in traffic, or have the means and availability to do track days once a month, for which this wouldn't likely be your DD, you're just getting bragging rights on the local bench-racing forum.

I drive mostly in urban and suburban settings where it's not prudent/safe to drive much over the speed limit. There are times and places when I can wind out first gear and get up to 60 mph, and interstate merges where 80 is necessary, but this is such a small percentage of my driving, and if you are really honest with yourself, you are in a similar situation, or else you would not be considering the less-powerful options.

In the meantime, I'm saving several thousand dollars in initial purchase price plus more money in lower operating costs -- gas, insurance, property taxes. If I feel the need for more power, then my savings will pay for any Cobalt SS-like upgrade Chevrolet may make available in the future.

I've owned an El Camino (now that's a real sport utility), Monte Carlo, Regal turbo, LT1 Caprice, and several Hondas including my current DD Accord V6 , and nearing retirement, the Camaro will be the last new car I intend to buy. Always wanted one, but needs overrode wants, but now wants triumphs; if I need something else, then wife can have it -- Traverse, CR-V, RAV4, etc.

Food for thought.

kain279 · 10-20-2015, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joecamaro53

Since the Camaro is based on the Alpha platform also used by the Cadillac ATS, it numbers should be very similar.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...al_first_test/

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...s_20t_arrival/

These links are for an ATS coupe with manual, and sedan with six-speed automatic. The weights are slightly higher, and the '14 sedan has less torque, but the results should give you a feel for what to expect.

I'm going to go with the turbo four. Why the four?

Honestly, how often are you going to use 450 horsepower if this is your daily driver? Yeah, it's fun, but unless you have to get on the Interstate every day and need to race tractor-trailers for gaps in traffic, or have the means and availability to do track days once a month, for which this wouldn't likely be your DD, you're just getting bragging rights on the local bench-racing forum.

I drive mostly in urban and suburban settings where it's not prudent/safe to drive much over the speed limit. There are times and places when I can wind out first gear and get up to 60 mph, and interstate merges where 80 is necessary, but this is such a small percentage of my driving, and if you are really honest with yourself, you are in a similar situation, or else you would not be considering the less-powerful options.

In the meantime, I'm saving several thousand dollars in initial purchase price plus more money in lower operating costs -- gas, insurance, property taxes. If I feel the need for more power, then my savings will pay for any Cobalt SS-like upgrade Chevrolet may make available in the future.

I've owned an El Camino (now that's a real sport utility), Monte Carlo, Regal turbo, LT1 Caprice, and several Hondas including my current DD Accord V6 , and nearing retirement, the Camaro will be the last new car I intend to buy. Always wanted one, but needs overrode wants, but now wants triumphs; if I need something else, then wife can have it -- Traverse, CR-V, RAV4, etc.

Food for thought.

You're applying "practicality" to a performance vehicle.

The SS could get 1/2 the gas mileage and cost even 10k more than it will and I would still not consider the lesser models; I want the best performance, period.

GretchenGotGrowl · 10-20-2015, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danfish

I think the v6 would be better to mod then the t4. Once you do FI on the 6 mod for mod the t4 won't be able to keep up.

They are talking about simple mods. A tune and some bolt ons will result in bigger gains for the T4 than the same changes to the V6. Sure, if you go FI on the V6 it will see big gains as well, so yes given a big enough budget you can make the V6 a faster car. Both are going to be nice platforms.

Danfish · 10-20-2015, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kain279

You're applying "practicality" to a performance vehicle.

The SS could get 1/2 the gas mileage and cost even 10k more than it will and I would still not consider the lesser models; I want the best performance, period.

I'm with you. I have an ecoboost and modded it to get GT levels. It's quick but it will never be a v8. So my next car will be a 6G Camaro SS

joecamaro53 · 10-20-2015, 10:02 AM

p.s.: I intend to get RS and HD cooling/brake upgrade, and automatic trans (my wife's requirement; she "has to be able to drive it" -- her words).

joecamaro53 · 10-20-2015, 10:11 AM

To kain279:

You have that right as a buyer, but that's why options are offered. Who says you can't have fun and practicality. The Japanese did just that years ago, though now all their products are "practical" and the fun has been engineered out. I'm a firm believer in the "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow" school of thought.

bigdonut · 10-20-2015, 01:57 PM

I'm looking at the Camaro for my first car and my engine choices are the Turbo I4 and V6. This car won't be a track car, but a car for daily driving. I honestly don't think it's worth it to spend $1.5k on the V6. The only benefits I see to the V6 is that it has more horsepower and the ability to get NPP.

Is it really worth it to have a V6 over a Turbo I4? I don't know about you guys, but if y'all wanna buy me a 1SS, I'll take that. Other than that, I can't afford a V8, so don't complain. To me the Turbo I4 seems to be the winner over the V6. It costs less and will probably have a mod-friendly scene now that the LTG will see mass production. Sure the V6 is N/A, but the Turbo I4 seems more appealing in terms of affordability and sufficient performance.

I think the leading engines for the Camaro 6 will be the LT1 and LTG—the performance and base tiers. It would be awesome if GM releases a factory-backed performance setup for the Turbo I4. I know the Turbo I4 WON'T be the amazing LT1, but it really puts up a fight to the V6. I feel as if the V6 is just catering to people who want a V6 (sounds simple, I know). I'm sure the Turbo I4 Camaros will end up getting better mileage over the V6.

To me, Turbo I4 > V6.

Imp · 10-20-2015, 02:13 PM

The V6 will run on regular, where the T4 will probably require Premium.

At todays gas prices up here, it would be another ~$200/year at 12k miles/year to gas the T4 than the V6. Over 5 years that's $1k. Now it's only a $500 difference. Worth it now?

--kC

bigdonut · 10-20-2015, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imp

The V6 will run on regular, where the T4 will probably require Premium.

At todays gas prices up here, it would be another $200/year at 12k miles/year to gas the T4 than the V6. Over 5 years that's $1k. Now it's only a $500 difference. Worth it now?

--kC

That's the only big downside of the LTG.

GTIanZ28 · 10-20-2015, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

They are talking about simple mods. A tune and some bolt ons will result in bigger gains for the T4 than the same changes to the V6. Sure, if you go FI on the V6 it will see big gains as well, so yes given a big enough budget you can make the V6 a faster car. Both are going to be nice platforms.

The price of a turbo / supercharger kit for the V6 will likely exceed the cost of simply buying the V8 to begin with!

Quote:

Originally Posted by joecamaro53

I'm going to go with the turbo four. Why the four?

Honestly, how often are you going to use 450 horsepower if this is your daily driver? Yeah, it's fun, but unless you have to get on the Interstate every day and need to race tractor-trailers for gaps in traffic, or have the means and availability to do track days once a month, for which this wouldn't likely be your DD, you're just getting bragging rights on the local bench-racing forum.

I drive mostly in urban and suburban settings where it's not prudent/safe to drive much over the speed limit. There are times and places when I can wind out first gear and get up to 60 mph, and interstate merges where 80 is necessary, but this is such a small percentage of my driving, and if you are really honest with yourself, you are in a similar situation, or else you would not be considering the less-powerful options.

In the meantime, I'm saving several thousand dollars in initial purchase price plus more money in lower operating costs -- gas, insurance, property taxes. If I feel the need for more power, then my savings will pay for any Cobalt SS-like upgrade Chevrolet may make available in the future.

I've owned an El Camino (now that's a real sport utility), Monte Carlo, Regal turbo, LT1 Caprice, and several Hondas including my current DD Accord V6 , and nearing retirement, the Camaro will be the last new car I intend to buy. Always wanted one, but needs overrode wants, but now wants triumphs; if I need something else, then wife can have it -- Traverse, CR-V, RAV4, etc.

Food for thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdonut

That's the only big downside of the LTG.

Joe & donut.
I currently have a 2.0L turbo car. I have had more mechanical problems with this car than any other I have ever owned. Granted this is my first forced induction car - but it is also going to be my last.

Yes, it's a VW and yes my analysis is anecdotal. But, it is my belief that forced induction is not as reliable as a naturally aspirated engine.

That said I'd never fault anyone for buying the turbo 4. For tuners they will end up making a lot more power & more cheaply than the V6. Just wanted to throw my .02 in and kind of explain why I picked the V6.

joecamaro53 · 10-20-2015, 03:58 PM

"The V6 will run on regular, where the T4 will probably require Premium.

At todays gas prices up here, it would be another $200/year at 12k miles/year to gas the T4 than the V6. Over 5 years that's $1k. Now it's only a $500 difference. Worth it now?"

Let's look at the official EPA estimates for the 2016 Cadillac ATS, since the numbers are published, the Camaro's numbers haven't been posted, and there's no reason said figures shouldn't be different enough to matter.

V6 gets combined mileage of 24mpg, at your 12k miles a year, that's 500 gallons. You use your local figures for how much that will actually cost.

The turbo 4 has a combined mileage of 26, so that's 462 gallons. In my neck of the woods, premium is 40 cents more per gallon. That works out to about $120 annually. Drive in the city 100% of the time at 22mpg and it's still about $120 additional cost over V6's 20mpg.

The ATS website says "premium recommended", so some sensor will determine that premium is not being used and will dial back the timing to prevent engine damage. On a long interstate road trip, you could use regular and not notice any degradation of mileage or performance, though in town, your well-calibrated pants seat will probably feel the difference.

Your call as to "worth it now?". Sure a lot less than feeding premium to a V8 that will rarely have all 455 horsepower called upon.

joecamaro53 · 10-20-2015, 04:10 PM

to GTIanZ28,

That Regal turbo was one of the first made in 1978. I didn't know about letting the turbo cool off after hard running, but it never bit me because I always had a few miles of easy driving for it to cool. Alternator, radiator issues, but never any engine/turbo issues until the turbo failed at 80k when I reached my honeymoon destination. New ones seem to be much more reliable, especially when you follow the maintenance requirements.

VW's in general don't seem to be as reliable as their Japanese competitors, and certainly much more expensive to repair. Don't you read the forums?

GretchenGotGrowl · 10-20-2015, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTIanZ28

The price of a turbo / supercharger kit for the V6 will likely exceed the cost of simply buying the V8 to begin with!

Joe & donut.
I currently have a 2.0L turbo car. I have had more mechanical problems with this car than any other I have ever owned. Granted this is my first forced induction car - but it is also going to be my last.

Yes, it's a VW and yes my analysis is anecdotal. But, it is my belief that forced induction is not as reliable as a naturally aspirated engine.

That said I'd never fault anyone for buying the turbo 4. For tuners they will end up making a lot more power & more cheaply than the V6. Just wanted to throw my .02 in and kind of explain why I picked the V6.

True, but it will also yield more than 455 hp/tq, so if warranty isn't an issue it isn't a bad way to go, dollar for dollar.

10-20-2015, 09:37 AM	#16
joecamaro53 Drives: last Chevy was LT1 Caprice Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 10	Performance number for the T4 Since the Camaro is based on the Alpha platform also used by the Cadillac ATS, it numbers should be very similar. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...al_first_test/ http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...s_20t_arrival/ These links are for an ATS coupe with manual, and sedan with six-speed automatic. The weights are slightly higher, and the '14 sedan has less torque, but the results should give you a feel for what to expect. I'm going to go with the turbo four. Why the four? Honestly, how often are you going to use 450 horsepower if this is your daily driver? Yeah, it's fun, but unless you have to get on the Interstate every day and need to race tractor-trailers for gaps in traffic, or have the means and availability to do track days once a month, for which this wouldn't likely be your DD, you're just getting bragging rights on the local bench-racing forum. I drive mostly in urban and suburban settings where it's not prudent/safe to drive much over the speed limit. There are times and places when I can wind out first gear and get up to 60 mph, and interstate merges where 80 is necessary, but this is such a small percentage of my driving, and if you are really honest with yourself, you are in a similar situation, or else you would not be considering the less-powerful options. In the meantime, I'm saving several thousand dollars in initial purchase price plus more money in lower operating costs -- gas, insurance, property taxes. If I feel the need for more power, then my savings will pay for any Cobalt SS-like upgrade Chevrolet may make available in the future. I've owned an El Camino (now that's a real sport utility), Monte Carlo, Regal turbo, LT1 Caprice, and several Hondas including my current DD Accord V6 , and nearing retirement, the Camaro will be the last new car I intend to buy. Always wanted one, but needs overrode wants, but now wants triumphs; if I need something else, then wife can have it -- Traverse, CR-V, RAV4, etc. Food for thought.

10-20-2015, 10:02 AM	#20
joecamaro53 Drives: last Chevy was LT1 Caprice Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 10	p.s.: I intend to get RS and HD cooling/brake upgrade, and automatic trans (my wife's requirement; she "has to be able to drive it" -- her words).

10-20-2015, 10:11 AM	#21
joecamaro53 Drives: last Chevy was LT1 Caprice Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 10	To kain279: You have that right as a buyer, but that's why options are offered. Who says you can't have fun and practicality. The Japanese did just that years ago, though now all their products are "practical" and the fun has been engineered out. I'm a firm believer in the "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow" school of thought.

10-20-2015, 01:57 PM	#22
bigdonut Drives: Nothing Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 148	I'm looking at the Camaro for my first car and my engine choices are the Turbo I4 and V6. This car won't be a track car, but a car for daily driving. I honestly don't think it's worth it to spend $1.5k on the V6. The only benefits I see to the V6 is that it has more horsepower and the ability to get NPP. Is it really worth it to have a V6 over a Turbo I4? I don't know about you guys, but if y'all wanna buy me a 1SS, I'll take that. Other than that, I can't afford a V8, so don't complain. To me the Turbo I4 seems to be the winner over the V6. It costs less and will probably have a mod-friendly scene now that the LTG will see mass production. Sure the V6 is N/A, but the Turbo I4 seems more appealing in terms of affordability and sufficient performance. I think the leading engines for the Camaro 6 will be the LT1 and LTG—the performance and base tiers. It would be awesome if GM releases a factory-backed performance setup for the Turbo I4. I know the Turbo I4 WON'T be the amazing LT1, but it really puts up a fight to the V6. I feel as if the V6 is just catering to people who want a V6 (sounds simple, I know). I'm sure the Turbo I4 Camaros will end up getting better mileage over the V6. To me, Turbo I4 > V6.

10-20-2015, 02:13 PM	#23
Imp Dodges all the cones Drives: Soon Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: SE Mass/RI Posts: 756	The V6 will run on regular, where the T4 will probably require Premium. At todays gas prices up here, it would be another ~$200/year at 12k miles/year to gas the T4 than the V6. Over 5 years that's $1k. Now it's only a $500 difference. Worth it now? --kC

10-20-2015, 03:58 PM	#26
joecamaro53 Drives: last Chevy was LT1 Caprice Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 10	"The V6 will run on regular, where the T4 will probably require Premium. At todays gas prices up here, it would be another $200/year at 12k miles/year to gas the T4 than the V6. Over 5 years that's $1k. Now it's only a $500 difference. Worth it now?" Let's look at the official EPA estimates for the 2016 Cadillac ATS, since the numbers are published, the Camaro's numbers haven't been posted, and there's no reason said figures shouldn't be different enough to matter. V6 gets combined mileage of 24mpg, at your 12k miles a year, that's 500 gallons. You use your local figures for how much that will actually cost. The turbo 4 has a combined mileage of 26, so that's 462 gallons. In my neck of the woods, premium is 40 cents more per gallon. That works out to about $120 annually. Drive in the city 100% of the time at 22mpg and it's still about $120 additional cost over V6's 20mpg. The ATS website says "premium recommended", so some sensor will determine that premium is not being used and will dial back the timing to prevent engine damage. On a long interstate road trip, you could use regular and not notice any degradation of mileage or performance, though in town, your well-calibrated pants seat will probably feel the difference. Your call as to "worth it now?". Sure a lot less than feeding premium to a V8 that will rarely have all 455 horsepower called upon.

10-20-2015, 04:10 PM	#27
joecamaro53 Drives: last Chevy was LT1 Caprice Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 10	to GTIanZ28, That Regal turbo was one of the first made in 1978. I didn't know about letting the turbo cool off after hard running, but it never bit me because I always had a few miles of easy driving for it to cool. Alternator, radiator issues, but never any engine/turbo issues until the turbo failed at 80k when I reached my honeymoon destination. New ones seem to be much more reliable, especially when you follow the maintenance requirements. VW's in general don't seem to be as reliable as their Japanese competitors, and certainly much more expensive to repair. Don't you read the forums?

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