[aa406079]

would you recommend these for a car that is still primarily a daily driver ? I'm thinking of doing similar by maxing out the camber plate and probably some positive camber in the knuckle to get a total net camber of about -1.5*

I want to go with 295/30R19 in the front ( PS4S tires don't come in 285/30R19) and I'm wondering if this will give me enough clearance with my existing 10" wide 19's to be able to ditch the 5mm spacers I purchased....

Will this rather conservative camber setting still be a noticeable steering feel improvement and worth the price of install and purchase?

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by aa406079

would you recommend these for a car that is still primarily a daily driver ? I'm thinking of doing similar by maxing out the camber plate and probably some positive camber in the knuckle to get a total net camber of about -1.5*

I want to go with 295/30R19 in the front ( PS4S tires don't come in 285/30R19) and I'm wondering if this will give me enough clearance with my existing 10" wide 19's to be able to ditch the 5mm spacers I purchased....

Will this rather conservative camber setting still be a noticeable steering feel improvement and worth the price of install and purchase?

I can't give you a definitive answer, other than saying it'll improve the probability of having enough clearance with a wider tire. Also the weather-resistance of these isn't OEM-level; you'll have to plan on replacing the spherical bearing when they wear out, and when that happens depends exactly on how much bad weather (water & salt) you expose it too.

The tire tramlining and dynamic contact patch induced from your camber setting is only a small portion of what comprises steering feel. It's mostly in the scrub radius, caster, and trail, with the suspension bushings muddying that all up. Take out the bushing that sees the biggest torque arm (the strut top) and the delta in precision is very noticeable. To me it's worth it.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Just finished the install of the Moreno camber/caster plates. I set them up for about -2.5 deg total, middle-roading the knuckle camber and maximizing the plate camber. This maximizes the tire-to-strut clearance, making room for future wider front tires. I also added a whiff of positive caster to emulate the ZL1 1LE alignment specs. The alignment is roughed in for now and I'll schedule a precision alignment ASAP.

The big takeaway from the shake-down test drive is the incredible precision from going from rubber strut mounts to spherical bearing strut mounts. I forgot how impressive they feel, and it's amplified with the incredible front-end grip the 1LE has. A huge improvement in telepathy. No tangible increase in NVH either, impressive.

Another thing to keep in mind is with less flexible strut mounts, the dynamic camber loss is reduced. This means that less static camber is needed to achieve the same dynamic camber. I'll get the alignment dialed in where I *think* it should be close, but next track day I'll also do IR gun measurements and see how close my estimate was.

It's always that, isn't it ?

Any change in the front suspension height? My friend mentioned that these add some height to the fronts and change the rake a little bit

I also would like to hear your opinion on DSC after the adjustments. Thanks for the sharing

[Ryephile]

The Moreno plates gives you two options; stock ride height, or 0.5" lower. The lower option removes a stack-up spacer, thus making the camber plate thinner. This is the route I took. Left alone it gives the chassis a 0.5" rake over stock. I can try this since I have the DSC Sport controller, I just settle the suspension on level pavement and reset the ride height sensors via the GUI.

As for the DSC controller, I've got the Touring and Sport modes just about where I feel they're appropriate for the names of the modes. Out of the box the Track mode felt appropriate, but I can't give any useful lap time feedback on that mode until next weekend's track days. Touring is more comfortable than stock 1LE (but not as disconnected as a stock SS MRC), which IMO had too little low speed front rebound, giving the car a floaty Porsche 911-esque bounce up front. That's now gone. It levitates over big broad heaves, yet absorbs sharp shelves and cracks with precision. Put it in Sport and that levitation turns into a more tied down feeling; the car follows the road much more accurately, yet the sharp cracks and mid-Interstate speedbumps are still absorbed very well. Generally, Sport has firmer low and mid speed damper shaft velocity tuning, but it also breaks out of the g-comfort settings quicker, so its dynamic firmness goes up by about 10%. Track feels slightly jigglier and very tied down, as the dampers are now at a much higher minimum damper force. High speed damper shaft force is still appropriate for absorbing track curbing at apexes.

[glamcem]

Great, it makes sense to go with lower option as it also allows running SQ setup without worrying to alter the rake. Adding a bit more rake might be also beneficial to get rid of the understeer maybe which is a plus. I will look forward to hearing your feedback on track use

[Ryephile]

New alignment to go with the Moreno camber plates. I'm not going to post the printout because the before was way out of whack from me disassembling the rear suspension to measure total stroke, so it's more distracting than helpful. In any case, the rear suspension has about 4.3" of droop and 2.5" of useful* compression in stock form. This ratio is fairly typical for modern production cars that are highly bumpstop active. Also of note is the rubber bushings contribute significantly to the spring rate, and as such clocking them is critical.

Camber: -2.6° front, -1.7° rear
Caster: 7.9° front, roughly 0.7° more than my stock SS 1LE Track alignment and exactly the ZL1 1LE's track recommendation.
Toe: 0.08° in total (left+right) front and 0.09° in total rear

The added caster is noticeable, with a stronger back-to-center snap in the steering wheel. The added front camber is also noticeable with regards to crowned road tramlining. Now you'll definitely want to keep the steering in Touring mode.



*"Useful" meaning enough bumpstop compression to lift the corner of the car off jackstands. This is not full possible compression.

[Ryephile]

Picture time!

Shots of doing the Moreno camber/caster plate install:

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

(Note: not the final camber plate orientation)
Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

Underneath. Fascinating how the paint crackles around the cast aluminum tower
Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr


On the alignment rack:

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr


And finally, out in the sun:

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr

Suspension updates by Ryephile, on Flickr


For the eagle eyes, the rear end *is* sitting lower than stock.

Cheers,
Ryan

[RXtacy]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

For the eagle eyes, the rear end *is* sitting lower than stock.

Cheers,
Ryan

Maybe I missed it, but what did you do to achieve that?

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by RXtacy

Maybe I missed it, but what did you do to achieve that?

I'm trying something out. I trimmed the rear springs to lower the car 1/2". I'm not sure I can recommend it, as removing that 1/2" of free compression travel makes the remaining compression travel that much more bumpstop-active. The long game is I'm waiting for Moreno's rear control arms that reposition the lower damper and spring perch locations.

[Ryephile]

Also, I might as well share my experience with revamping the audio system. On the 1SS 1LE, it's different than literally every other Camaro trim level. There's no trunk-mounted amplifier, the speakers are driven by an on-board chip amp in the receiver buried behind the glove box. As such, to obtain a signal, you have to splice into the wiring harness. More specifically, the easiest location (for me) to do this was at the door bulkhead connector behind the footwell kick panel trim. Here's a picture of the connector:

Audio bits by Ryephile, on Flickr

The right channel signal wires are Yellow (+) and Yellow/Black (-)
The left channel signal wires are Blue (+) and Brown/Blue (-)

I spliced into these, ran them back to the miniDSP, which split the signal into a 3-way setup, and then to the amplifiers, and new speaker wire going to the dash, splicing into the door, and to the subwoofers. The amplifiers are housed in a fabricated wood housing that replaces the foam insert under the trunk. It provides a solid surface for the carpet to rest on but is open on the sides for heat dissipation. Magically I have zero pictures of that.

Here's a list of what I'm using:
*miniDSP C-DSP 6x8
*Rockford Fosgate P600x4 for tweeters and midbass
*Rockford Fosgate P400x2 for subwoofers
*SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-C000-4 tweeters in custom Kydex adapters
*SB Acoustics SB17NAC35-4 6.5" midbass in Metra adapters
*Kno Knoise - Resonance Control in doors
*subwoofers pending (!) I had a 12" Dayton RSS315RF in a Qtc 0.71 leftover from a previous car, but I cannot get it to couple correctly with the cabin while it's in the trunk. Time for a re-think.

Here is me bench testing my amplifiers and DSP:
Audio bits by Ryephile, on Flickr

Doing an initial test of the UMIK-1 and some break-in time for the front stage:
Audio bits by Ryephile, on Flickr

Close up of the tweeter and midbass:
Audio bits by Ryephile, on Flickr



Here's where I put the miniDSP and the MRC computer. It's all held down with industrial 3M scotch-lock. This is mid-install so the wiring isn't loomed yet in the picture.
Audio install by Ryephile, on Flickr

Here's the door panel removed with the stock speaker:
Audio install by Ryephile, on Flickr

And with the midbass installed.
Audio install by Ryephile, on Flickr

Here's my tweeter footprint adapter, made out of Kydex.
Audio install by Ryephile, on Flickr

Audio install by Ryephile, on Flickr

Through the windshield shot of the tweeter installed in the dash location:
Audio bits by Ryephile, on Flickr


Using the UMIK-1, I was able to tune the responses of the tweeters and midbass nicely to a house curve I prefer. I'm currently running the front stage in a fairly unorthodox 1.5 way setup, with the midbass's running only a high pass 8th order at 60Hz and the tweeters with a high pass 8th order at 1500 Hz. The midbass surprisingly have very low distortion all the way up to their natural roll off, and the resultant soundstage is bigger and yet more cohesive than solely the dash tweeters doing 1500Hz and up. I wouldn't of guessed that either. The dash location has turned out to be a fairly strong pain in the butt for resonant reflections, and the DSP can only help so far before introducing marked distortion of its own. I may have to reengineer the grilles themselves, as they add measurable distortion. Also surprisingly, I'm running no phase shifting, again the dash locations are not conducive to phase steering and end up compressing the soundstage laterally, which isn't good. An added bonus to zero phase shifting is both front seats have reasonable soundstage rather than just the driver seat.

[Ryephile]

I did a couple more little things, thanks to ThatGMPartsGuy. I added the black suede knee pads, a "that should've been there from the factory" change. I also added splash guards up front, and the OEM wickerbill out back.

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr


This past weekend was the last track weekend of the season. I instructed for Great Lakes Lotus Club, and it was a pleasure to help guys (and one gal) find the line and do it smoothly. It was also great to meet FlashBang23 and Alpha1BC! The weather was mixed, rain both nights prior meant the track was super green both days, and wet Saturday morning with light rain, and damp but dried quickly on Sunday morning. Most people were complaining but I find rain to be an incredible learning experience and excellent low-speed car control practice. Grattan is unusual in more ways than one, but in the rain the newer asphalt is much glossier and thus slipperier than the old asphalt, making transitioning across those surfaces a delicate situation. The asphalt differences aren't as prominent when it's dry, perhaps 0.1g versus ~0.5g when wet.

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr


As such with the green track conditions, my lap times weren't as quick as last month, and the datalogging shows that every single corner was at least 0.1g down over normal rubbered-in track. It also showed up in lower peak speeds everywhere, since I couldn't exit the corners as fast. It all added up to about 1 second off the pace. That's how it goes sometimes. Something that's interesting, I couldn't feel the wickerbill whatsoever. I know it wasn't holding me back in the straights, because my corner exit speeds were proportionally lower too from the low track grip. I guess I'll leave it on for now.

I did end up cording my Supercar 3's up front. It was only a matter of time. 6 track days and roughly 7k street miles will do that. I ordered a set of Michelin Pilot 4S's in stock sizes. Those'll be my DD 3-season tires, and next spring I'll make a move on a 19" track-day setup, likely the ZL1 1LE rolling stock. Somethere where I can drive to-and-from the track.

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr

Camaro end of track season. by Ryephile, on Flickr

A note about the Supercar 3 wear. I ended up cording the left outside and the right inside simultaneously. That tells me I have both too much dynamic inboard camber and too little dynamic outboard camber, or in other words, too much body roll. I'll look into BMR's anti-roll bars and see if they're able to tell me the stiffness delta vs. the FE4 anti-roll bars. A modest rate increase over stock would help with tire wear, and also work better with the ZL1 1LE tires come springtime.


I did get some great reactions with a couple student passengers this weekend. One younger guy was pretty much all giggles and squeals, with exclamations like "WOW!" and "OH MY GOD!". Turns out he had never ridden in a car driven at the limit, first timer. That was fun. Another older gentleman who IIRC used to race Formula Ford decades ago was quite impressed with the 1LE, complimenting its turn-in strength and ability to rotate with both trail-braking and on-throttle. Then there was a student that was very quiet during the session, and then kind of just got out and walked away. His friend came over to my pit moments later and said that I had scared the bejeezus out of his friend, as he didn't think cars could go that fast. Based on his smirk, it was a compliment. There was also a well-driven S2000 in my run-group, but of course S2000's, even though they're excellent to drive, can only go so quick. I caught him and got a quick point-by, which I waved in appreciation and then checked out into the distance. After the session he practically ran over to me and exclaimed he didn't know Camaro's could be that quick, he figured it would've been like any old 4th gen that he was familiar with. I said nope, GM has come a looong way since then! The car certainly got some great feedback this weekend, dispelling old myths for sure.

[Ryephile]

Some news:

*I sold the turbo Miata. I put barely 1500 miles on it this year, most of that was miles to and from the two track weekends I did with it. Between the 1LE and the Triumph Daytona I wasn't feeling excited about the Miata anymore, so off it goes to a new owner.

*The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S's are really great for street driving. I got them in stock SS 1LE sizes, 285/30-20 and 305/30-20. Funny enough the fronts are made in USA and the rears are made in France. In any case they have great cold temp grip (for a max summer), and actually really great rain fording ability. It's been raining seemingly nonstop the past 3 weeks and the tires have been perfect. So, if you need a street-only 3-season tire, this one is recommended. I have no plans whatsoever to track these, I'll get another 19" setup in spring, likely the OEM ZL1 1LE rolling stock.

*Back in late September I took the car on a fall color tour up in Michigan's beautiful Leelanau peninsula with a small contingent of the Michigan MINI Club. It was a fantastic weekend, here are some sample pictures:

Untitled by Ryephile, on Flickr

Untitled by Ryephile, on Flickr

Untitled by Ryephile, on Flickr

I really liked how the dust from the rock driveway impressed upon the tire, plus the really great lighting shows off the paint very well.
Untitled by Ryephile, on Flickr


*Finally, some technical information. Here are the caliper temp stickers after 8 "days" on track. They stabilized once I did a couple sessions with the ST-43 pads, which I have to say are a really great match for the car. The stickers are showing a very light browning of the 450°F square up front and a solid browning of the 370°F square in back. These are fairly hot, especially up front; I'd like to improve the brake cooling in the near future. You can see the "1" in the 1LE logo is now golden instead of silver.

Untitled by Ryephile, on Flickr

Untitled by Ryephile, on Flickr

[RXtacy]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

*Finally, some technical information. Here are the caliper temp stickers after 8 "days" on track. They stabilized once I did a couple sessions with the ST-43 pads, which I have to say are a really great match for the car. The stickers are showing a very light browning of the 450°F square up front and a solid browning of the 370°F square in back. These are fairly hot, especially up front; I'd like to improve the brake cooling in the near future. You can see the "1" in the 1LE logo is now golden instead of silver.

Thanks for posting the info on caliper temps. I bought some stickers before my last event and completely forgot to throw them on

How would you compare the ST-43's to the Powerstop track day pads you used earlier?

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by RXtacy

...How would you compare the ST-43's to the Powerstop track day pads you used earlier?

Night and Day. The Cosworth telemetry was showing about a 1/4g improvement with the ST-43's, so braking points had to shift accordingly. The Power Stop Track Day are, IMO, great for Beginner and early Intermediate drivers that aren't yet putting a ton of heat into their brakes lap after lap. Frankly I only see them being relevant if you're swapping into Z26's for DD pads and want to keep the same compound base for clean/easy bedding while swapping pads. The ST-43's are "good ole days" brakes that throw out the anchor at the expense of some pedal feel, and they appear to also have very low wear rate. Their plain backing plates do put more heat into the caliper though.

Overall, I'll be keeping the ST-43's as track pads. They're excellent.