2014 1LE FBO E85 dyno. Low torque?

[eLeSthree]

My friend has a nice low mileage 2014 1LE. It was stock until he met me. Now it has CAI, TSP 1 7/8 (nicely coated) ID1050x, and DSX FF.

When it was stock, he had 7.5 degrees of kR, which we fixed by refreshing the plugs, and adding a bottle of octane booster. The KR came back when the booster wore off.

We installed the Intake/headers/wideband and I tuned out the codes and massaged the MAF sensor to get fueling right, but didnt touch timing.

He was continually plagued with KR. Octane booster always got rid of the KR. So he decided to do FF conversion.

We installed ID1050x (future mods coming) and DSX FF kit. Flashed the ID data, turned on the FF Sensor, tuned all the usual FF stuff. KR seemed to be completely gone. Only adding about 4 degrees of timing in high load areas and pulled about 4.5 in low load areas. We dyno'd it today and it made a nice HP number, but the torque seemed a little low to me. There were random dribbles of KR, about .3 degrees. I pulled timing in those areas, and made more pulls. the dribbles of KR came back in other areas. Seems not related the tuning.

Do you guys think there is something mechanically wrong with the car, or is my tuning off?

450/404...

I'd be happy to provide tunes and logs to anyone willing to look.

My CTS-V made 591/600, so I'm happy about that FBO, E85, pulley.

[eLeSthree]

Correction: If you ignore the spike on my cts-v dyno, its also down on torque at about 515-520ish. Stock-ish LSAs are usually square, meaning HP and TQ are about equal. I wonder if something is off with that dyno.

[Bo White]

What amount of timing are you running and what octane?

[eLeSthree]

Originally Posted by Bo White

What amount of timing are you running and what octane?

E75 and 26 degrees of timing.

[eLeSthree]

This is the Flex Fuel adder table. This is in addition to the stock LS3 High Octane table. Now that Im looking at the log, there is very little additional timing under 4000rpm, then it starts ramping in.

[Bo White]

I'm talking gas. You said it pinged on gas correct?

[eLeSthree]

Yea before the flex fuel conversion we saw up to 7.5 degrees of knock on 93 octane. Completely stock car, stock tune.

[Bo White]

What amount of timing?

[eLeSthree]

Originally Posted by Bo White

What amount of timing?

When it was stock, on 93 octane:

Before the KR appears, at WOT the stock tune would demand 24-25 degrees of timing. With 6 degrees of KR, timing falls to 12.5

With FBO and E85:
My tune is commanding 26 degrees at WOT, its seeing .5 degrees of KR in random areas, then timing falls to 23.5.

[Russell James]

When it was stock, low mileage... knocked on 93? Changing the plugs helped?

How did reading the plugs look? Sooty, carboned up?

Spark plugs and reading them correctly tells the real story of what is going on in an engine.

Excessive knock when stock, I would wonder if it is carboned up. Seen that plenty of times. Anyone ever mess with the cooling system? Saw an LS3 once get all carboned up because an air pocket was left in the cooling system. Coolant sensor sitting in an air pocket instead actual coolant... computer saw incorrect low temps way too long... way overfueled it for a while... computer thought the engine was cold when it was actually overheating. Plugs, pistons and heads all carboned up like crazy very quickly. End result was mysterious knocking nobody could figure out. People kept chasing symptoms... like fouled plugs, timing, knock, fuel... when the real problem was a not properly bled cooling system and carboned up engine.

If it were me I start with the basics. Top engine cleaning, tune on fresh plugs, correct heat range for the mods, torqued real snug so the plugs are transferring their heat to the heads. Cooling system bled ( hold rpm at 2K on a cold start for water pump speed/flow with rad cap off) 5 mins or so and all air pockets should be gone. Put cap on, drive a few heat cycles and recheck levels. The LS engines are very sensitive to air pockets as if you see where the coolant sensor is... that is exactly where an air pocket will be - highest point of the head.

That's my wild guess if it was knocking like crazy when stock on 93. Might need a good top engine cleaning to get all that carbon out. Especially if the OE low mileage plugs looked sooted up. Low mileage, they should have looked near new.

[eLeSthree]

When I saw the KR, the first thing we did was change the plugs. Stock replacements. They looked oily. It still pinged. We also installed a catch can when we did the bolt ons.

Over time, driving the car hard, we have seen less and less knock.

I will look into the coolant system today. At 34k miles, I believe it is probably original coolant. It runs right at 198.

[eLeSthree]

Update:

We decided to rule out my newb tuning skills, so he took the car to dsmlights in miami and he put a street tune on it. We brought the car back to the original dyno a few days later. The car picked up torque but lost a little HP. The owner says it feels more powerful with this tune. So I did a stare and compare at the tunes. It looks like he pulled some timing in low load areas and added just a touch up top. It picked up about about 20ftlbs at the cost of 15whp above 5500.

It still see's random dribbles of KR... so we ordered a BTR Stage 2 (new) centri cam kit. #fixed

[Big Biscuits]

Looks better. Did you desensitize the knock sensors any? They can pickup rattles and driveline vibration. I have read where they would pickup vibrations from exhaust rubbing on the rearend.

[eLeSthree]

Originally Posted by Big Biscuits

Looks better. Did you desensitize the knock sensors any? They can pickup rattles and driveline vibration. I have read where they would pickup vibrations from exhaust rubbing on the rearend.

The tuner did bump the initial level of the knock sensors, just a little. KR still showing up above 4500rpm at WOT. Sometimes is .2, sometimes is 2.5.

F it. Cam is going in New Years weekend.

Since a bottle of octane booster dropped the KR from 7.5 to 0 in several highway pulls (bone stock car), I convinced him to go FF. 13 tanks of E75 later, the thing is still pinging and I look like the fool. haha. I just dont understand it...

I'm off the hook though. The mod bug has him now. He'll be boosted within a year....lol