[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

Isn't it supposed to be able to, why would it?

I understand it's pretty much the most expensive mustang ever but it is still a mustang.

It is still a brick in the wind and it still is heavy as hell and seats 4 people. So it's a hell of a stretch to call it a super car killer or relate it to REAL supercars and expect it to beat them.
I am sure magazines and people can compare it to whatever they want, the vette is closer to a supercar, it's what 500lbs lighter? and arrow shaped, mid-engine etc... I am pretty sure we all know the gt500 will get obliterated by a ZR1 (another 2 seater lighter sports car).


What if dodge comes out with a "hellcat" minivan and make it super expensive? will we say it's time to compare it to corvettes and what not?
You're super stuck on price it seems you won't even post without mentioning it. THEY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT CARS.


You can also get a 2019 Lotus Elise for 85-100k, how come nobody is comparing it to the corvette? it's a two seater sports car too.
And in your eyes probably the worst bang for the buck in the universe.

Lotus Evora. No more Elise in the U.S.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

Again, I think you're expecting too much out of a mustang.
Like I said, brick in the wind, heavy and seats 4.
And yes, the corvette is the better performance bargain, you'd have to be blind not to acknowledge that but the people buying these cars obviously are able to drop some serious money on them without too much thought or excel spread sheets on price per horsepower etc...



I'd love to see the ZLE vs GT500 too and that should be the next magazine race for sure because they are direct competitors.

On performance "VALUE" the GT500 is a heavy car that run's 10's with a user that doesn't have to know how to drive and a hand built engine AND it can actually handle very well. And (in my eyes) looks very killer. So it does have performance value, but not a SUPER AWESOME performance value for the cost. The base model is more of a value for what most people are going to do with the car.

Again lots of people in this price range aren't crying about 20k here and 10k there though so it's a bit of a different vibe when you are able to plop down that kind of cash.

Same here! By the way I'm not taking sides nor do I really care what is or isn't a supercar. It is different to everyone. I know one when I see one. And no matter how hard Ford tries tell people it is, I'm not sure it will work on people that aren't already Ford fans for the most part.

Here is another one from Ford. ".....a driving experience once reserved only for exotic supercars."

https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...lby-gt500.html

I remember Ford trying to talk up the GT350R against I think about a GT3 in downforce etc etc. There marketing team has been pushing the "supercar" narrative for a few years now.

[ZRacerLE]

I've called both the ZL1 and new GT500 supercars. I think if the lowest trim levels never existed, many people would consider them supercars... maybe "entry level" supercars?

Either way, they have supercar level performance given they aren't far from the C7 Z06 numbers. If a C7Z is not considered a supercar then I'm just off on my definitions (might be).

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

We're not talking about Dodge. We are talking about the GT500 which is priced well within the range of Supercar territory. And it is priced similar to cars that HAVE beat Supercars. And not for nothing, but it enjoyed a severe advantage in price and power against the C8 Z51. So again, why not turn the tables and see how it does when in the same shoes? Judging by your replies I can pretty much assume that you know it wouldn't stand a chance. Which is where you and I differ. Because I would LOVE to see the $70K 650HP ZLE take on the $94K 760HP GT500. And I bet the ZLE will win. You have some hang up with giving the GT500 the same disadvantage.

My thought is that despite the price, the GT500 is NOT a good performance value. It's #1 competitor is the ZLE. And the only car it has been pitted against was a 495 HP C8. Let the GTR or C7 Z06 or Z7 ZR1 play with it and see what happens.

I go back and forth on the price of the CFTP car being worth it. My best argument for it is you get ZLE laptimes with the comfort of a ZL1 and the straight line speed of a ZR1. For me looking at it that way, $95K doesn't look so bad. Still not sure if it's a bargain, but I think that's because the Chevys are so heavily discounted that even MSRP seems like ripoff, lol!

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

I've called both the ZL1 and new GT500 supercars. I think if the lowest trim levels never existed, many people would consider them supercars... maybe "entry level" supercars?

Either way, they have supercar level performance given they aren't far from the C7 Z06 numbers. If a C7Z is not considered a supercar then I'm just off on my definitions (might be).

This a great example of what I mean. Both cars you mention have supercar performance, which is why we obviously bUy them at a relative bargain to performance etc. But to me a supercar has it all. The performance, the look and the interior experience etc. The ZL1s/GT350/500s etc all look great in their own way, but don't look exotic or "supercar" to me. And a supercar by my definition most definitely does not have a Ford Fusion shift dial in it.

Quick story from Ford GT350 Track Attack and marketing. Don't get me wrong, it is awesome that Ford does this and I wish Chevy did, but all it is is one big marketing event. Any way, early on you could tell the fanboys from the more savvy/realistic/jaded owners like myself. In the morning briefing about how the day was going to go, one of the main instructors said that Ford gave us a race car. A few of us chuckled and know that any stock GT350, R or not is not a race car and Ford didn't "give us" anything. But, when you looked around the room could see some guys were legit aroused. So marketing obviously works on some to either attract or keep customers. Again, other than that the TA event was awesome and I really wish Chev did something similar with the ZL1s.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by minn19

This a great example of what I mean. Both cars you mention have supercar performance, which is why we obviously bUy them at a relative bargain to performance etc. But to me a supercar has it all. The performance, the look and the interior experience etc. The ZL1s/GT350/500s etc all look great in their own way, but don't look exotic or "supercar" to me. And a supercar by my definition most definitely does not have a Ford Fusion shift dial in it.

Quick story from Ford GT350 Track Attack and marketing. Don't get me wrong, it is awesome that Ford does this and I wish Chevy did, but all it is is one big marketing event. Any way, early on you could tell the fanboys from the more savvy/realistic/jaded owners like myself. In the morning briefing about how the day was going to go, one of the main instructors said that Ford gave us a race car. A few of us chuckled and know that any stock GT350, R or not is not a race car and Ford didn't "give us" anything. But, when you looked around the room could see some guys were legit aroused. So marketing obviously works on some to either attract or keep customers. Again, other than that the TA event was awesome and I really wish Chev did something similar with the ZL1s.

Great points.

Yeah, it's so entertaining watching the cult members (of every brand - it used to be Corvette for me)

[mlee]

Originally Posted by minn19

Quick story from Ford GT350 Track Attack and marketing. Don't get me wrong, it is awesome that Ford does this and I wish Chevy did, but all it is is one big marketing event. Any way, early on you could tell the fanboys from the more savvy/realistic/jaded owners like myself. In the morning briefing about how the day was going to go, one of the main instructors said that Ford gave us a race car. A few of us chuckled and know that any stock GT350, R or not is not a race car and Ford didn't "give us" anything. But, when you looked around the room could see some guys were legit aroused. So marketing obviously works on some to either attract or keep customers. Again, other than that the TA event was awesome and I really wish Chev did something similar with the ZL1s.

Chevy does do this with both Corvette and Camaro. They are adding ZLE to the mix in 2020 when dates come out at Area 27.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=562911

[minn19]

Originally Posted by mlee

Chevy does do this with both Corvette and Camaro. They are adding ZLE to the mix in 2020 when dates come out at Area 27.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=562911

Unless I misread, those are pay event/schools.

TA was "free" except for transportation/lodging etc. I'm sure it is built into the cost of the car somewhere. I also got a "free" track day voucher from BMW for my M4 CS.

Regardless, it does look cool and when they get ZL1s up there I'll definitely look at going.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

Again, I think you're expecting too much out of a mustang.
Like I said, brick in the wind, heavy and seats 4.
And yes, the corvette is the better performance bargain, you'd have to be blind not to acknowledge that but the people buying these cars obviously are able to drop some serious money on them without too much thought or excel spread sheets on price per horsepower etc...



I'd love to see the ZLE vs GT500 too and that should be the next magazine race for sure because they are direct competitors.

On performance "VALUE" the GT500 is a heavy car that run's 10's with a user that doesn't have to know how to drive and a hand built engine AND it can actually handle very well. And (in my eyes) looks very killer. So it does have performance value, but not a SUPER AWESOME performance value for the cost. The base model is more of a value for what most people are going to do with the car.

Again lots of people in this price range aren't crying about 20k here and 10k there though so it's a bit of a different vibe when you are able to plop down that kind of cash.

Look at it this way. You really need to option the C8 to the mid 70k range to get the Corvette you would want, there is a reason most will purchase this car in the 75-80k range and not 59k. This puts it right in the Base 500 ballpark. Do you want a 2 seater sports car or a 4 seater muscle/sports car, Do you want a sc 760hp or a na 495hp. The C8 will need the alignment track adjustment to run with a base 500 track package (not really pratical imo) then depending on track and driver will likely determine which is faster. The C8 will be quicker on the street and easier to drive on the strip but the 500 is clearly the faster car by nearly 10 mph, get it right and you will be deep into the 10s.

I can see the appeal for both with no wrong answer despite all the smoke from both sides. Neither is ideal the C8 will run great at the track but requires track adjustment, 500 runs great at the strip but requires good track prep and conditions.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Look at it this way. You really need to option the C8 to the mid 70k range to get the Corvette you would want, there is a reason most will purchase this car in the 75-80k range and not 59k. This puts it right in the Base 500 ballpark. Do you want a 2 seater sports car or a 4 seater muscle/sports car, Do you want a sc 760hp or a na 495hp. The C8 will need the alignment track adjustment to run with a base 500 track package (not really pratical imo) then depending on track and driver will likely determine which is faster. The C8 will be quicker on the street and easier to drive on the strip but the 500 is clearly the faster car by nearly 10 mph, get it right and you will be deep into the 10s.

I can see the appeal for both with no wrong answer despite all the smoke from both sides. Neither is ideal the C8 will run great at the track but requires track adjustment, 500 runs great at the strip but requires good track prep and conditions.

I don't get why you guys keep harping on this track alignment thing. Most track rats run with a track alignment. I know after I did my suspension mods on my GT350, I ran the most aggressive alignment I could without camber plates. I'm going to on my ZLE next year at the track. This isn't an uncommon thing.

Edit: Plus I still don't believe the GT500 wasn't in some sort of track alignment for the test. Just because they don't mention it, doesn't mean it wasn't.

[TheRealJA105]

Like the Mustangs weren't track aligned, but had roll cages...

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by minn19

I don't get why you guys keep harping on this track alignment thing. Most track rats run with a track alignment. I know after I did my suspension mods on my GT350, I ran the most aggressive alignment I could without camber plates. I'm going to on my ZLE next year at the track. This isn't an uncommon thing.

Edit: Plus I still don't believe the GT500 wasn't in some sort of track alignment for the test. Just because they don't mention it, doesn't mean it wasn't.

It matters because it is not the way MT reviews it's vehicles as stated below from the MT article.

I'd also paused during my lapping to mention the understeer to a Corvette engineer who was watching track-side—and he looked slightly frustrated. "That's easy to adjust" he sighed. Easy, that is, if you have a lift handy (as well as the know-how). Of course, we're always fiddling with a test car's driver-accessible software settings during testing (and tire pressures during lapping). But that's as far as we go in altering things; after all, we want our numbers to reflect how the car is sold to customers.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by newmoon

It matters because it is not the way MT reviews it's vehicles as stated below from the MT article.

I'd also paused during my lapping to mention the understeer to a Corvette engineer who was watching track-side—and he looked slightly frustrated. "That's easy to adjust" he sighed. Easy, that is, if you have a lift handy (as well as the know-how). Of course, we're always fiddling with a test car's driver-accessible software settings during testing (and tire pressures during lapping). But that's as far as we go in altering things; after all, we want our numbers to reflect how the car is sold to customers.

That makes no sense. Your (and my previous GT350s) were sold to us with a street alignment. Anyone who has seriously tracked them gets a track alignment for the day/weekend. And usually mods them with camber bolt/plates. My ZL1 1LE was sold to me with a street alignment, I'm not going to track it like that.

MT also dynoed the Vette claiming the LT2 made 600 plus HP/TQ and then retracted it saying they set the test up wrong.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...c8-power-dyno/

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...ults-followup/

You can believe that Ford came to them in complete street alignment, which is fine, but I and most neutral observers (I'm nobody's fanboy) will not believe it without more explanation from MT etc. Either way the Vette will tear up tires on the street in track alignment prematurely and heavy 4k car will tear up tires in street alignment differently on the track. As most know, there is no free lunch in tracking a car. You will pay for something somewhere depending how it is setup.

In the end they should of verified both were in street alignment since that is the way they are sold to the customers and test them that way.

Edit: Also one is a fully in production car, one is not.

[minn19]

Here is a better article on MTs dyno controversy.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/30990/...ette-dyno-test