[Chutzpah]

I just got an alignment per my specifications, which were -1.5 Camber front, -1.25 camber rear, and front and rear toe .1 +/- .05.

Following the alignment the handling increased markedly, which was what I was after. However, the steering wheel “hand position” is now in a 11 and 3 position (as opposed to 10 and 2). I swear the car also pulls to the left, but it’s pretty hard to find a road that’s perfectly flat. I know my parameters aren’t stock settings, but have had no issues with straight line performance with comparable settings in the past.

I slid under the car and clearly see the tie rod(s) lock nuts are exactly where the factory has them marked, so definitely no changes there. My question is it possible for the camber to be modified as much as I did and not adjust the toe settings?

I go back on Monday to have them look at it. According to the owner, its possible I could just be my “perception” that the wheel isn’t straight. Sounds like I’m going to sit and the driver seat and tell them where center is. No problem there… and quite frankly it was close to 100F in the shop when the work was performed, so I have to cut the tech slack. Only problem is it’s and hour away and I made the special trip and paid more to have it done right the first time.

[atx_traveler]

they can easily fix that. just need to adjust the tie rods the same amount on both sides, and your steering wheel will be straight.

[Chutzpah]

Originally Posted by atx_traveler

they can easily fix that. just need to adjust the tie rods the same amount on both sides, and your steering wheel will be straight.

Thanks for responding ATX…that’s what I was told. But, still doesn’t answer my question about camber change and the need to adjust toe (or not). Just seems odd that the tie rod adjustments weren’t touched, but the the paperwork indicates that toe fell perfectly into place with just those camber adjustments. I guess it’s possible, I’m just trying to educate myself on the matter.

[ChevyTech77]

First off, I hope they replaced the rear cam bolts for the rear toe links. It looks like they only adjusted the toe in the rear and those bolts (camber cam bolts too) are a one time use only bolt.

Second, to answer your question, no, you can’t typically adjust camber without adjusting toe. However, if you’re referring to the front tie rod jamb nut paint marks lining up with the paint marks on the outer tie rod ends, that just means they torqued the nuts to the same setting they were torqued at from the factory. There is no paint marks on the inner tie rod end threads which is where the change was made.

Third, both front and rear TOTAL toe is suppose to be +.1 degrees. Not +.2 degrees. That can feather the outside edges of the tires at that setting.

Lastly, be very careful about saying it pulls unless you’re on near perfect pavement, when driving a car with higher negative camber. Because your tire contact patch isn’t what it was with a higher positive camber setting, the vehicle can “hunt” around some. With equal camber, like it shows you have, and a lower caster on the right, the car should actually lead right a little. If your steering wheel is off and you’re correcting it while trying to drive down the road, that’s not a pull. That’s an off center steering wheel.

Last, last thing. Make sure the shop is performing a steering wheel angle sensor learn in the power steering control module and electronic brake control module, after the alignment is done, in that order. If not, you can have weird issues that feel like leads, pulls and slightly off center steering wheels.

[Chutzpah]

Originally Posted by ChevyTech77

First off, I hope they replaced the rear cam bolts for the rear toe links. It looks like they only adjusted the toe in the rear and those bolts (camber cam bolts too) are a one time use only bolt.

Second, to answer your question, no, you can’t typically adjust camber without adjusting toe. However, if you’re referring to the front tie rod jamb nut paint marks lining up with the paint marks on the outer tie rod ends, that just means they torqued the nuts to the same setting they were torqued at from the factory. There is no paint marks on the inner tie rod end threads which is where the change was made.

Third, both front and rear TOTAL toe is suppose to be +.1 degrees. Not +.2 degrees. That can feather the outside edges of the tires at that setting.

Lastly, be very careful about saying it pulls unless you’re on near perfect pavement, when driving a car with higher negative camber. Because your tire contact patch isn’t what it was with a higher positive camber setting, the vehicle can “hunt” around some. With equal camber, like it shows you have, and a lower caster on the right, the car should actually lead right a little. If your steering wheel is off and you’re correcting it while trying to drive down the road, that’s not a pull. That’s an off center steering wheel.

Last, last thing. Make sure the shop is performing a steering wheel angle sensor learn in the power steering control module and electronic brake control module, after the alignment is done, in that order. If not, you can have weird issues that feel like leads, pulls and slightly off center steering wheels.

Thanks for the detailed email…sigh. Please see my comments below.

#1 No, and I knew that they weren’t, even though I brought spares. They basically said if you’re not tracking it, it’ll be fine. We do these all the time(I was referred to this place by another member). He adjusted just one bolt in the back.

#2 Ok, got it. That makes sense.

#3 Sigh again, I’ll make note of it… thanks.


Lastly- The car gently leads to the left on highway and side roads, pretty much most of the time regardless of low speed or high speed lane (pitch of road) Even when I take my hand off the wheel with it at 11 and 3 position, the wheel starts to straighten slowly out of 11 and 3, before I pull it back.


Last- What the f@%!. I seriously doubt they did that. I saw the guy finish up what I think was his last adjustment, walked away and maybe 5 minutes later it was pulled out of the garage. So it sounds like this is standard procedure that all alignment shops should perform? Man, I’m totally out of the loop on this. I just assumed you align the wheels and call it a day. Do they do this from the OBD port, if so… then It’s even more doubtful. I have something else plugged in there.

I appreciate your info on this, thanks again.

[Msquared]

If you change camber, then toe will also change: more negative camber gives you more toe out. They probably didn't mess with the front toe because you had a crap ton of toe in to begin with. If it were me, I'd want zero front toe and smidgeon of rear toe in.

Toe will not cause your car to pull. It can't. Cross caster or camber will. You have a bit of cross caster, but you can't change that on a stock Camaro. I have about the same cross caster on mine, but it doesn't pull. So I doubt that's it.

Toe will cause your steering wheel to be off center if the steering wheel wasn't centered during the alignment. It's silly that they let a car out of the shop like that. That's just sloppiness on their part.

I've never had to do the steering relearn process because even with changing caster and total toe, you aren't changing the steering travel range. However, if they sent the car out of the shop with the steering wheel way off center and without a relearn, it's possible that the steering is trying to compensate for the off-center steering position and causing the pull. The first step is to get the steering wheel centered and do the relearn, and then see if it tracks straight and stops pulling.

[Chutzpah]

Originally Posted by Msquared

If you change camber, then toe will also change: more negative camber gives you more toe out. They probably didn't mess with the front toe because you had a crap ton of toe in to begin with. If it were me, I'd want zero front toe and smidgeon of rear toe in.

Toe will not cause your car to pull. It can't. Cross caster or camber will. You have a bit of cross caster, but you can't change that on a stock Camaro. I have about the same cross caster on mine, but it doesn't pull. So I doubt that's it.

Toe will cause your steering wheel to be off center if the steering wheel wasn't centered during the alignment. It's silly that they let a car out of the shop like that. That's just sloppiness on their part.

I've never had to do the steering relearn process because even with changing caster and total toe, you aren't changing the steering travel range. However, if they sent the car out of the shop with the steering wheel way off center and without a relearn, it's possible that the steering is trying to compensate for the off-center steering position and causing the pull. The first step is to get the steering wheel centered and do the relearn, and then see if it tracks straight and stops pulling.

Thanks for responding Msquared.

Yep, it’s probably due to some skipped step / sloppiness. But again, it was hotter than hell in their shop, so I have to have some empathy (even though I’m freaking annoyed and tempted to just bring it somewhere local, instead of driving an hour each way)

So, it sounds like as close to neutral toe is the way to go, including performing a relearn. I’ve certainly learned something here…

[dpevans]

We have electronic steering, the last step in any alignment is recentering the steering wheel. My last alignment the wheel was recentered by 3 degrees even though the spec said it was in. If the shop doesn't know how to do this the find a shop that does, joey wheel alignment at the corner tire shop doesn't touch the alignment on my car only take it to a trusted alignment shop.

[Chutzpah]

Originally Posted by dpevans

We have electronic steering, the last step in any alignment is recentering the steering wheel. My last alignment the wheel was recentered by 3 degrees even though the spec said it was in. If the shop doesn't know how to do this the find a shop that does, joey wheel alignment at the corner tire shop doesn't touch the alignment on my car only take it to a trusted alignment shop.

Yea, well the not so funny part of this is they do race alignments… so I thought I was good to go and didn’t question them. I even asked if my specs looked ok and if they had any recommendations (IE a more neutral toe).

[Msquared]

I think there is some misunderstanding of how toe and steering wheel orientation and relearn actually work. The steering wheel orientation compared to the tire's steering angle is not adjustable via the steering relearn process. That relationship is "hard-coded" by the tie rod end adjustments. Each side's steering link consists of an inner and outer tie rod end, and when you adjust toe you either lengthen or shorten the total length of each link. You can't change that by "relearning" the steering. If the steering wheel is exactly centered when the tires are pointing straight ahead (regardless of total toe setting), then the car will go straight down a level road when the steering wheel is straight. It's that simple. Therefore, centering the steering wheel is the very first step in an alignment after the car is on the rack. If you do that first, then set the toe at the tie rods, the steering wheel will be oriented properly.

Relearn, OTOH, only tells the computer where the centered steering (i.e. straight ahead travel on the road) is on the rack. If the steering is off center, the power assist adds some centering force to return the steering wheel back to center. If you change total toe setting but not the steering wheel orientation - i.e. you lengthen or shorten both sides' steering links by the same amount - you really don't need to do the relearn because the center hasn't changed on the steering rack. Likewise, since the OP's steering was centered before the alignment and it's way off now, the limits may be far enough out of whack that the computer is confused and trying to return the steering to the old center. If he were to get under the car and straighten the steering himself (as someone said, lengthen one link and shorten the other by the same amounts), he probably still wouldn't need the relearn because the center would be back to where it was before.

All that said, at this point, if the OP goes back to the shop and they actually fix the steering orientation, then they might as well do the relearn just to be sure. OP, you're being very understanding and mistakes do happen, even at shops that do lots of race stuff. I just recently saw this happen to someone at a shop way out of state from where I am. Hopefully they will just as nice and fix the problem. If I were them, I'd apologize profusely and offer some kind of discount on the next visit just to compensate a bit for your troubles. A good shop isn't perfect, but it does hold itself accountable and resolve mistakes.