[minn19]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I don’t think it’s a rush job, based on when I first started seeing camouflaged properties on the street. I do think that it is the best Ford can do with the D2C platform. Without going to a new platform, there was no way to get the weight out of the car. So given that, I think they did a really good job with it. I’ll withhold judgement a bit until we understand whether the DCT is a short fuse in terms of launch capability. If so, I’d be looking at Ford’s integration capability more than at Tremec. Tremec also developed and manufactures the C8 DCT and that one is a launch beast. No doubt it’s aided by the mid-engine configuration, but if the DCT is subject to clutch overheating based on power at launch, we should be seeing it on the C8 first, since there’s so much more downforce on the rear axle at launch. I find it hard to believe Tremec nailed one and screwed the pooch on the other.

Agreed, I don't think it was a rush job. The more I read about it and see what owners are posting about it though, it does look like Fords customary cost cutting in some spots I really don't think they should, especially on the CFTP. I'm waiting for more info when it gets out in owners hands in bigger numbers to form a conclusion though.

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

IDK, man... Both Throttle House and Edmunds say they prefer the 500 over the Camaro and Challenger, except for RP who values the Camaro's track abilities.

It's the shiny new thing... journalists will almost always pick that over last years' model.

I'm not saying it's a POS, it's an incredible car, but it is kind of a let down after the long wait, and at such a high cost.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

Or a test and tune track event sounds like wherever you drive your car for performance testing but are not in a "timed" competition.



I am sure with any manufacturer you should still be careful and have a good relationship with your service manager at the dealership

Well basically when you go into the service area, don't say I was racing it at whatever. It is extremely vague in the Ford book.

Chevy is better worded 100% but basically says the same thing. You can drive the cars hard on a track but if you are in a competitive event and blow something up your SOL.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So was this car a rush job or what?

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I don’t think it’s a rush job, based on when I first started seeing camouflaged properties on the street. I do think that it is the best Ford can do with the D2C platform. Without going to a new platform, there was no way to get the weight out of the car. So given that, I think they did a really good job with it. I’ll withhold judgement a bit until we understand whether the DCT is a short fuse in terms of launch capability. If so, I’d be looking at Ford’s integration capability more than at Tremec. Tremec also developed and manufactures the C8 DCT and that one is a launch beast. No doubt it’s aided by the mid-engine configuration, but if the DCT is subject to clutch overheating based on power at launch, we should be seeing it on the C8 first, since there’s so much more downforce on the rear axle at launch. I find it hard to believe Tremec nailed one and screwed the pooch on the other.

This ^ also let's not forget there are no owners of C8s out there beating the heck out of them yet.

Originally Posted by DaveC113

IDK, man... Both Throttle House and Edmunds say they prefer the 500 over the Camaro and Challenger, except for RP who values the Camaro's track abilities.

I think you're selling it a little short, the car looks good, apparently has a good blend of comfort and performance, and while it may not be as fast as it could be, I'm not sure people care that much. Performance is not enough for Camaro, despite it's superiority the others outsell it in favor of a larger more comfortable car with better visibility.

I'm sure Ford will sell plenty of them... Personally, I'm not a fan, but I was also never a fan of the Camaro until Gen6 either so I value performance more than most and am willing to sacrifice better practicality for it. For me, the Ford and Dodge aren't even considerations.

That is a pretty fair assessment

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I don’t think it’s a rush job, based on when I first started seeing camouflaged properties on the street. I do think that it is the best Ford can do with the D2C platform. Without going to a new platform, there was no way to get the weight out of the car. So given that, I think they did a really good job with it. I’ll withhold judgement a bit until we understand whether the DCT is a short fuse in terms of launch capability. If so, I’d be looking at Ford’s integration capability more than at Tremec. Tremec also developed and manufactures the C8 DCT and that one is a launch beast. No doubt it’s aided by the mid-engine configuration, but if the DCT is subject to clutch overheating based on power at launch, we should be seeing it on the C8 first, since there’s so much more downforce on the rear axle at launch. I find it hard to believe Tremec nailed one and screwed the pooch on the other.

Given the setbacks and all the flaws that have still been seen with this car it just seems like maybe Ford kinda ran out of time and just had to go ahead and put it out.

Originally Posted by DaveC113

IDK, man... Both Throttle House and Edmunds say they prefer the 500 over the Camaro and Challenger, except for RP who values the Camaro's track abilities.

I think you're selling it a little short, the car looks good, apparently has a good blend of comfort and performance, and while it may not be as fast as it could be, I'm not sure people care that much. Performance is not enough for Camaro, despite it's superiority the others outsell it in favor of a larger more comfortable car with better visibility.

I'm sure Ford will sell plenty of them... Personally, I'm not a fan, but I was also never a fan of the Camaro until Gen6 either so I value performance more than most and am willing to sacrifice better practicality for it. For me, the Ford and Dodge aren't even considerations.

it will definitely sell. And it will sell above MSRP for sure. I give it credit for it's looks. It is a really good looking car. But there just seems to be a lot of issues with it already. Maybe people are being too rough with it? Maybe it wasn't built Ford tough...enough? I don't know. But I don't think I would be able to trust one at this point.

Originally Posted by Rodan

It's the shiny new thing... journalists will almost always pick that over last years' model.

I'm not saying it's a POS, it's an incredible car, but it is kind of a let down after the long wait, and at such a high cost.

Agreed. But after owning cars that are heavier but have tons of HP and TQ, I would say I prefer something lighter that handles better. Which is one of the reasons why the HC is getting returned and I'll be keeping and modding the ZL1. These cars are getting to be too heavy. I guess for someone who is bigger then a HC or a GT500 is more comfy and roomy. And that is likely part of the reason these outlets chose the GT500 over the ZL1. But I wonder if they would have a change of heart after owning these cars and feeling their weight and heft on the road. I do not mind being cramped in my ZL1 or how tight the C8 felt considering how they handle...or how the C* is supposed to be able to handle.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

IDK, man... Both Throttle House and Edmunds say they prefer the 500 over the Camaro and Challenger, except for RP who values the Camaro's track abilities.

I think you're selling it a little short, the car looks good, apparently has a good blend of comfort and performance, and while it may not be as fast as it could be, I'm not sure people care that much. Performance is not enough for Camaro, despite it's superiority the others outsell it in favor of a larger more comfortable car with better visibility.

I'm sure Ford will sell plenty of them... Personally, I'm not a fan, but I was also never a fan of the Camaro until Gen6 either so I value performance more than most and am willing to sacrifice better practicality for it. For me, the Ford and Dodge aren't even considerations.

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

I was a Corvette snob until the 6th gen Camaro. Now I'd proudly own any one of the 1le cars, including the 4 banger. The GT500 now has me looking at Mustangs! I'll never say never again (including a Challenger ACR if they do it and do it right).

Originally Posted by minn19

Agreed, I don't think it was a rush job. The more I read about it and see what owners are posting about it though, it does look like Fords customary cost cutting in some spots I really don't think they should, especially on the CFTP. I'm waiting for more info when it gets out in owners hands in bigger numbers to form a conclusion though.

Originally Posted by Rodan

It's the shiny new thing... journalists will almost always pick that over last years' model.

I'm not saying it's a POS, it's an incredible car, but it is kind of a let down after the long wait, and at such a high cost.

4 good posts and proper car guy attitudes!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well basically when you go into the service area, don't say I was racing it at whatever. It is extremely vague in the Ford book.

Chevy is better worded 100% but basically says the same thing. You can drive the cars hard on a track but if you are in a competitive event and blow something up your SOL.

The only time I have seen or heard of GM going after people is when cars were modded. But not when a car was raced. Remember, someone posted a quote saying something to the effect of "buy it race it if it breaks then bring it in" or something along those lines. I'll try to find the quote. I could be way off.

Anyway these cars all have records of the driving activity from the past 30 or so minutes. Maybe even longer. You don't have to tell them you were racing. But I bet when they pull those files they will know. Throttle, braking, Gs, and other parameters are recorded. They will know if it was a Sunday morning drive to church or if you were on a "race course".

Originally Posted by shaffe

This ^ also let's not forget there are no owners of C8s out there beating the heck out of them yet.

I do think GM has proven, especially lately, that their cars are better engineered, better built, and more durable than the Mustangs are. It should be noted that we haven't heard any reports of C8 going into limp mode or struggling in hot weather or suffering from DA ETC like the GT500s seem to be doing left and right. However I doubt any but a handful of C8s will see any driving as aggressive as the Mustangs are seeing. And I also think people tend to take better care of Corvettes than Mustangs. I mean, there was a video of a guy ripping on a GT500 right off the trailer. If a Corvette guy did that I think most of the community would consider him an idiot and tell him he got what he deserved. Joking a bit but those factors all kinda play a role. I don't think we'll see as many incidents with the C8s. Not even close.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

it will definitely sell. And it will sell above MSRP for sure. I give it credit for it's looks. It is a really good looking car. But there just seems to be a lot of issues with it already. Maybe people are being too rough with it? Maybe it wasn't built Ford tough...enough? I don't know. But I don't think I would be able to trust one at this point.

.

That is an interesting point. Are people being too rough with it. I was going to ask a similar question. Maybe there is a bit of a learning curve on how to abuse them at the strip. I would bet not many of these guys that have GT500s have extensive wheel time with DCT cars....or maybe its the tuners. Maybe they need more time to tweak things because how many of these guys tuning GT500s have tuned DCT cars.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The only time I have seen or heard of GM going after people is when cars were modded. But not when a car was raced. Remember, someone posted a quote saying something to the effect of "buy it race it if it breaks then bring it in" or something along those lines. I'll try to find the quote. I could be way off.

Anyway these cars all have records of the driving activity from the past 30 or so minutes. Maybe even longer. You don't have to tell them you were racing. But I bet when they pull those files they will know. Throttle, braking, Gs, and other parameters are recorded. They will know if it was a Sunday morning drive to church or if you were on a "race course".

It's all dealer dependent really. Basically it's all in the wording. GM straight up says you are covered on a track, but if you are competing and break your SOL. It's all vague but I will say GM is definitely ahead of the curve there.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It should be noted that we haven't heard any reports of C8 going into limp mode or struggling in hot weather or suffering from DA ETC like the GT500s seem to be doing left and right.

It should be noted that we haven't heard of any of those reports on the C8 because they aren't in the wild yet. The first production one just rolled of the line last week so kind of impossible for owners to report on any problems when they don't have the car yet. The only people outside of GM to drive it is the press and Jay leno lol

And I am not trying to say the C8 will have issues, just all those GT500 issues were from real owners driving production cars.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

IDK, man... Both Throttle House and Edmunds say they prefer the 500 over the Camaro and Challenger, except for RP who values the Camaro's track abilities.

I think you're selling it a little short, the car looks good, apparently has a good blend of comfort and performance, and while it may not be as fast as it could be, I'm not sure people care that much. Performance is not enough for Camaro, despite it's superiority the others outsell it in favor of a larger more comfortable car with better visibility.

I'm sure Ford will sell plenty of them... Personally, I'm not a fan, but I was also never a fan of the Camaro until Gen6 either so I value performance more than most and am willing to sacrifice better practicality for it. For me, the Ford and Dodge aren't even considerations.

Good post, agreed on everything.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Rodan

It's the shiny new thing... journalists will almost always pick that over last years' model.

I'm not saying it's a POS, it's an incredible car, but it is kind of a let down after the long wait, and at such a high cost.

This. While the gt500 is no doubt a great car, being the new kid on the block vs cars that have been out for a few years, will certainly get people a little more giddy. 760hp and super quick response paddles I'm sure go a long way. Most of these journalist usually prefer manuals, and a car with better integrated paddle shifts gets points in my book.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by rocket403

Redeye top speed run 191mph

Saw that yesterday, funny people used to say the redeye had a higher top speed, and that the demons tires were rated for less speed, and gearing was more aggressive, yada yada yada... demon is king of challengers, end of story.

[oldman]

A couple of days back, I looked into the strength of the DCT and the gear ratio, the GT500's DCT is a strong trans, much stronger than the C8's DCT.

So I did the differential research. Let me say again, the 8.8 (if it is an 8.8) is severely limited in this application as it is facing a trifecta of issues: high gear ratio (the biggest determination of strength), small ring size, and essentially a manual transmission application. Added it is a much older design running bearing caps vs the snail case used in GM. IMO the GT 500 DCT is programmed to slip the clutch pack to protect the 8.8

let me be clear off-the-cuff estimate would put this combination (760HP, manual, 3.73 gear 8.8 ring) as weaker than the 4th gen LS1 320 HP and a 7.65 diff 2.73, 3.08 and maybe even the 3.23 gear. We all know how the 4th gen 10 bolt worked (or did not) with slicks right?

Can the DCT be hacked for better / quicker clutch engagement? I'm sure it can. But then there is a real issue of drivetrain failure. I would guess Ford's solution is to slip the clutch (it is liquid-cooled), and this works till you put in round and round passes and slicks, then there is gonna be heat issues.


BTW after looking at all combinations, this diff is about the same loading as the GT500 in manual Hellcat (226mm 8.9" ring, 3.7 gear, manual, 840 HP) Here is the link to the results:
https://www.tflcar.com/2019/02/dodge...differentials/


Granted the 8.8 case is cast iron, but it is a much older design with bearing caps, sure the Ford 9" also has caps but the pinion on the 9" is supported from the rear which is a heck of strong design (so is the old Ford 8" from the 60s). GM, as mentioned, has a snail case that holds the ring in with one or both side end caps very similar to a bedplate concept on engines. This is a super strong design IMO, when I first saw it, I was thinking this was an engineering marvle. Plus GM went to a 9.9" ring, OMG that is more than .2" bigger than an indestructible Dana 60 (also with end caps on the bearing) I have no doubt that the 8.6 on the SS and the 09.9" on the ZL1 will go down as the strongest diffs ever used for there application. The same when Ford went to the 8.8 for their HO 5.0 at what 185 HP or sum'ting.

Nutshell IMO, Ford spent a lot of money on the GT500 and when it came to the diff... um heck we should have gone A10 auto with a 3.08 diff.. too late now, run what we have and (I assume here) that is a cast iron case 8.8.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

It should be noted that we haven't heard of any of those reports on the C8 because they aren't in the wild yet. The first production one just rolled of the line last week so kind of impossible for owners to report on any problems when they don't have the car yet. The only people outside of GM to drive it is the press and Jay leno lol

And I am not trying to say the C8 will have issues, just all those GT500 issues were from real owners driving production cars.

There were issues with the GT500 struggling even before they got into public hands tho. At the press event all we heard were fanboys saying that it was running mid 11s only because it was hot that day and (insert excuse). Then it got into public hands and we're seeing that it still runs mid 11s and there are several issues with them and overheating or going into limp mode. All the runs we have seen from the C8 and I haven't heard one issue relating to the car. There will likely be issues. But for right now it just seems that the GT500 is having more problems than normal.

Also remember, this is Ford's flagship Mustang. This is their top line. The only car it takes second fiddle to is the Ford GT. Ford had a lot of time to get their ducks in a row. 6 Years to be exact. This thing should be tight as an airplane bathroom. Which is why I wonder if at some point it was rushed along. Like maybe it could have used another year in development. Or, if it is a DCT thing, then maybe they should have skipped using that trans altogether. For what it's worth, when considering the delays in building the car and all the problems we're seeing, that trans may have been more trouble than it was worth. The A10 probably would have been a better more price friendly and less time consuming endeavor. And...it likely wouldn't have needed to be capped at 180. It seems like a lot of expense and effort just to end up with this car performing poorly.

Originally Posted by oldman

Nutshell IMO, Ford spent a lot of money on the GT500 and when it came to the diff... um heck we should have gone A10 auto with a 3.08 diff.. too late now, run what we have and (I assume here) that is a cast iron case 8.8.

This.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

There were issues with the GT500 struggling even before they got into public hands tho. At the press event all we heard were fanboys saying that it was running mid 11s only because it was hot that day and (insert excuse). Then it got into public hands and we're seeing that it still runs mid 11s and there are several issues with them and overheating or going into limp mode. All the runs we have seen from the C8 and I haven't heard one issue relating to the car. There will likely be issues. But for right now it just seems that the GT500 is having more problems than normal.


This.

I am not disagreeing with you that the GT500 has had its issues. What I am disagreeing with is your chosen argument. The Press event, was real cars, real drivers, being hotlapped. Now we see real world its hard to put the power down even on the strip. Yes 100% agree with that.

You are saying you haven't heard of any issues like that in the C8 and using that as a way to prop up the C8 and downgrade the GT500....the difference is the C8 hasn't been run in any of those conditions yet. The C8 has only been driven by the automotive press and that's it so of course the aren't going to be any issues popping up for it yet.

That's my issue.

[oldman]

Thremec designed and builds the DCT, I'm sure Ford has some commitment to them, that said Tremec probably can market this DCT to anybody (Dodge, GM, BMW / Toyota). given its strength, I can see no reason why GM can't put this in a ZL1 given the Zl1's 9.9 inch snail shell case... heck of strong.

It would be my opinion that a new diff, cradle, shafts design for this one car GT500 would exceed all other design costs by a significant margin. Assuming Tremec footed most of the cost for the DCT trans (and can market it to others). Nutshell Ford should have just put an A10 in which they designed with Chevy and called it a day, perfect in any application, so sorry if you want to shift (really can't do that in a DCT anyway).

BTW, I was correct on the clutch cooling from Tremec " Transmission fluid is applied to the clutch surfaces only during thermal events for optimal cooling and minimal parasitic loss"


Also note launch control is ALWAYS on" Drive modes aside, an rpm-selectable launch control and electronic line lock through Track Apps® enable synchronous powertrain strategies that deliver optimum quarter-mile runs, while an always-on pseudo launch control enables spirited launches at any time without having to select a drive mode."

Meaning we will never let you blow up the rear end, LOL.

Here is the driveline upgrade:
"Power output is transmitted to the 3.73:1 Torsen limited-slip independent rear suspension via a carbon fiber driveshaft for reduced rotational mass and torsional distortion, plus larger halfshafts and a redesigned rear suspension hub for added strength." Read that as we had no money to put in a bigger ring and so for this one car package or whever you want to call it, limited production application, we program grandma into the control module to makesure you can never launch it.


Too funny if true, the only mfg that can really use the DCT due to needing a bullet proof diff is.... bell ring GM LOL.