[1KillerSS]

Jessrayo, I knew you couldn't leave the 6th gen alone! I followed your compound boost thread big time, it was a killer project.

AGP what gives? Word on the street is you have had a couple 6th gens in your garage....are they still there or have you delivered them to the customers?

The greatest quote from a movie, IMO is from The Gladiator. When the Emperors sister tells him, "The mob is fickle brother, he'll be forgotten in a week. Give the people what they want brother."

While I am certain, that this will not be forgotten in a week.....Kevin, give the people what they want brother!

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by MIAMI2SSRS

This I awesome. Can't wait to see the results. If you don't mind me asking, the mods on your signature are for the Gen 6 in the picture or your ZL1 Gen 5?

Sig mods are the Gen 5 ZL1. It has run 200 mph in the Texas mile but was lifting the heads so went with the O-ringed block and some major revisions. It has not run for a year but should be coming together soon. I'm a little frustrated at the time it takes for custom machining. I did tell a lot of people no big rush but wow.... a year. The '16 was purchased at the end of January and a couple days after I got it I called AGP turbo that did a lot of work on my ZL1 and asked what their plan for gen 6 was... they said they were going to do a Camaro kit for sure but didn't have a car yet so out mine went. It should be home here before the end of the month.

On totally stock LT1 car the high engine compression and fuel pump limitations mean you can only give it around 6 pounds of boost before it needs more fuel pump. The turbos I had installed are not hardly working at 6 psi so the turbo wastegates are open a lot at that setting. Originally he left the wastegates open but at 6 psi they are almost blowing open every time you touch the throttle. He is plumbing the wastegates back through the mufflers and putting a bigger lift pump in the fuel tank and then we will see what it does on the dyno. I'm told it drives great already. The small turbos are making boost as fast as the transmission can downshift so when you step on it, it just plain hits.

Originally Posted by 1KillerSS

Jessrayo, I knew you couldn't leave the 6th gen alone! I followed your compound boost thread big time, it was a killer project.

AGP what gives? Word on the street is you have had a couple 6th gens in your garage....are they still there or have you delivered them to the customers?

The greatest quote from a movie, IMO is from The Gladiator. When the Emperors sister tells him, "The mob is fickle brother, he'll be forgotten in a week. Give the people what they want brother."

While I am certain, that this will not be forgotten in a week.....Kevin, give the people what they want brother!

Thanks on the ZL1, I'm still not done with that car yet....

I can can tell you that this Gen6 has been a big project for AGP. A lot of little nuances on this car that have been complex, factory crushed exhaust, all the stock cooling... quad cats, direct injection, entire fuel system is pressurized differently. Really, if you ask any shop that has done a lot of work on the LT1, it is a completely different ballgame than the old LS. But having said that, I'm expecting my car to be done in two weeks. (It is scheduled for pick-up) So the fickle mob will soon see what my mild gen 6 turbo set-up looks like...

[1KillerSS]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

Sig mods are the Gen 5 ZL1. It has run 200 mph in the Texas mile but was lifting the heads so went with the O-ringed block and some major revisions. It has not run for a year but should be coming together soon. I'm a little frustrated at the time it takes for custom machining. I did tell a lot of people no big rush but wow.... a year. The '16 was purchased at the end of January and a couple days after I got it I called AGP turbo that did a lot of work on my ZL1 and asked what their plan for gen 6 was... they said they were going to do a Camaro kit for sure but didn't have a car yet so out mine went. It should be home here before the end of the month.

On totally stock LT1 car the high engine compression and fuel pump limitations mean you can only give it around 6 pounds of boost before it needs more fuel pump. The turbos I had installed are not hardly working at 6 psi so the turbo wastegates are open a lot at that setting. Originally he left the wastegates open but at 6 psi they are almost blowing open every time you touch the throttle. He is plumbing the wastegates back through the mufflers and putting a bigger lift pump in the fuel tank and then we will see what it does on the dyno. I'm told it drives great already. The small turbos are making boost as fast as the transmission can downshift so when you step on it, it just plain hits.



Thanks on the ZL1, I'm still not done with that car yet....

I can can tell you that this Gen6 has been a big project for AGP. A lot of little nuances on this car that have been complex, factory crushed exhaust, all the stock cooling... quad cats, direct injection, entire fuel system is pressurized differently. Really, if you ask any shop that has done a lot of work on the LT1, it is a completely different ballgame than the old LS. But having said that, I'm expecting my car to be done in two weeks. (It is scheduled for pick-up) So the fickle mob will soon see what my mild gen 6 turbo set-up looks like...

Looking forward To the results! And based on your last/ongoing build I'm excited to see how this one goes.

[MIAMI2SSRS]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

Sig mods are the Gen 5 ZL1. It has run 200 mph in the Texas mile but was lifting the heads so went with the O-ringed block and some major revisions. It has not run for a year but should be coming together soon. I'm a little frustrated at the time it takes for custom machining. I did tell a lot of people no big rush but wow.... a year. The '16 was purchased at the end of January and a couple days after I got it I called AGP turbo that did a lot of work on my ZL1 and asked what their plan for gen 6 was... they said they were going to do a Camaro kit for sure but didn't have a car yet so out mine went. It should be home here before the end of the month.

On totally stock LT1 car the high engine compression and fuel pump limitations mean you can only give it around 6 pounds of boost before it needs more fuel pump. The turbos I had installed are not hardly working at 6 psi so the turbo wastegates are open a lot at that setting. Originally he left the wastegates open but at 6 psi they are almost blowing open every time you touch the throttle. He is plumbing the wastegates back through the mufflers and putting a bigger lift pump in the fuel tank and then we will see what it does on the dyno. I'm told it drives great already. The small turbos are making boost as fast as the transmission can downshift so when you step on it, it just plain hits.



Thanks on the ZL1, I'm still not done with that car yet....

I can can tell you that this Gen6 has been a big project for AGP. A lot of little nuances on this car that have been complex, factory crushed exhaust, all the stock cooling... quad cats, direct injection, entire fuel system is pressurized differently. Really, if you ask any shop that has done a lot of work on the LT1, it is a completely different ballgame than the old LS. But having said that, I'm expecting my car to be done in two weeks. (It is scheduled for pick-up) So the fickle mob will soon see what my mild gen 6 turbo set-up looks like...

Thannk you for the follow up. I am a complete newbie so my apologies for any stupid question I may ask. So do you think when the AGP TT kit is installed it should be set at 6 psi for a stock LT1 engine? For more boost the fuel system will have to be upgraded?

[MIAMI2SSRS]

Originally Posted by 1KillerSS

Looking forward To the results! And based on your last/ongoing build I'm excited to see how this one goes.

+1

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by MIAMI2SSRS

Thannk you for the follow up. I am a complete newbie so my apologies for any stupid question I may ask. So do you think when the AGP TT kit is installed it should be set at 6 psi for a stock LT1 engine? For more boost the fuel system will have to be upgraded?

If you don't want to make any changes to the fuel system at all, 6 psi is going to be what you want. 6 psi on a stock engine is going to be competitive with all the other kits out there around 550 whp. When the new LT1 superchargers from Eforce, procharger, magnuson came out I was wondering why they all were only using about 6 pounds of boost. Now I know, that is about what the stock fuel system will support in this engine. The ADM LT1 car with LT4 supercharger is making more boost but he includes fuel system upgrades in the kit. When Redline did their first stage "stock engine" turbo kit they upgraded the tank pump right from the start and made a very respectable 657 whp. Just based on what the guys at Redline have done, I'm guessing there is another 100whp available in upgrading the lift pump in the fuel tank. That is a lot of additional power if you can get the corresponding air into the engine.

I assume AGP will eventually have a kit designed to run at its maximum efficiency on the stock fuel system with only 6 pounds of boost. The thing about turbochargers is the turbo is an inertia system driven by exhaust gasses and not a belt like a supercharger. That makes them more efficient in the long run but to minimize turbo lag you have to be pretty specific about the size of the turbo you install. The further a turbo gets from it's peak efficiency the more you are going to feel it in the car. My ZL1 has twin turbos that can make 900whp each. If I tried to run them at 6 pounds of boost...they would come on so hard they would hit like shot of nitrous and then the wastegate would just open up and bleed all the "extra boost" into the atmosphere. Actually my ZL1 does this now if the supercharger is not on the car but it is a 1000whp shot.

The turbos I have in my '16 SS are good for about 400-450whp each. So running the turbos at 6 psi and 550whp is still pretty far below the best efficiency of these turbos on my car. AGP is upgrading my first stage of fuel pump now.

I have not seen a lot about this on the Camaro boards but the direct injection LT motors have a 2 stage fuel pump system where the LS motors just had the one stage. Direct injection must have a lot more pressure because the injector is spraying into a combustion chamber that is in a compression stroke where the old system sprayed into the air that was either atmosphere or boost. I don't remember my exact physics but one atmosphere is generally equal to around 15 pounds of boost so 15 pounds of boost with all other variables equal is about twice the air pressure. Well, LT1 is using 11 to 1 piston compression. That is potentially 5x more pressure than you are ever going to see in a LS fuel injection system. So LT adds another mechanical pump with camshaft lobes is what I'm told. On the "at the limit" builds on the Corvette boards getting fuel is actually more of a factor than the air. For years I have been saying that airflow available from the forced induction system has always limited max power potential of these engine. It seems I may have to change my tune to the real power limitation of these DI engines is fuel delivery.

So far most of the forced induction kits are set up to give more air but it seems obvious to me at this point that some fuel system upgrades will be mandatory to tap into what these engines can really do with the air available from a supercharger or turbo.

Within the next couple of weeks we will have results for my car with a lift pump upgrade. For the guys that know me, it probably is just a matter of time before the cam pump is upgraded. Once I start to mod a car, it can be a bit of an addiction for me.

[Snowblind]

Good write up jessrayo and I look forward to your results also.

Are you going with 1 7/8 headers and no mufflers ?

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Good write up jessrayo and I look forward to your results also.

Are you going with 1 7/8 headers and no mufflers ?

I have never been the guy that really likes the loud cars. It used to be that all sound reduction limited power and the fastest cars were the loudest, but now you can make a lot of power without destroying anyone's hearing. I like that I can sneak into most events without being noticed and then when the lights turn green destroy most of the loud cars. I think I'm one of the few guys that really wants peak performance more than attention. I have always liked the quote from T. Roosevelt, "speak softly and carry a big stick". There are no headers on this build. The turbos really don't need headers unless you are looking for absolute max power or more sound. The stock NPP exhaust is still on my car and I'm told it is much quieter with the turbos in place. That is the way I prefer it.

[MIAMI2SSRS]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

If you don't want to make any changes to the fuel system at all, 6 psi is going to be what you want. 6 psi on a stock engine is going to be competitive with all the other kits out there around 550 whp. When the new LT1 superchargers from Eforce, procharger, magnuson came out I was wondering why they all were only using about 6 pounds of boost. Now I know, that is about what the stock fuel system will support in this engine. The ADM LT1 car with LT4 supercharger is making more boost but he includes fuel system upgrades in the kit. When Redline did their first stage "stock engine" turbo kit they upgraded the tank pump right from the start and made a very respectable 657 whp. Just based on what the guys at Redline have done, I'm guessing there is another 100whp available in upgrading the lift pump in the fuel tank. That is a lot of additional power if you can get the corresponding air into the engine.

I assume AGP will eventually have a kit designed to run at its maximum efficiency on the stock fuel system with only 6 pounds of boost. The thing about turbochargers is the turbo is an inertia system driven by exhaust gasses and not a belt like a supercharger. That makes them more efficient in the long run but to minimize turbo lag you have to be pretty specific about the size of the turbo you install. The further a turbo gets from it's peak efficiency the more you are going to feel it in the car. My ZL1 has twin turbos that can make 900whp each. If I tried to run them at 6 pounds of boost...they would come on so hard they would hit like shot of nitrous and then the wastegate would just open up and bleed all the "extra boost" into the atmosphere. Actually my ZL1 does this now if the supercharger is not on the car but it is a 1000whp shot.

The turbos I have in my '16 SS are good for about 400-450whp each. So running the turbos at 6 psi and 550whp is still pretty far below the best efficiency of these turbos on my car. AGP is upgrading my first stage of fuel pump now.

I have not seen a lot about this on the Camaro boards but the direct injection LT motors have a 2 stage fuel pump system where the LS motors just had the one stage. Direct injection must have a lot more pressure because the injector is spraying into a combustion chamber that is in a compression stroke where the old system sprayed into the air that was either atmosphere or boost. I don't remember my exact physics but one atmosphere is generally equal to around 15 pounds of boost so 15 pounds of boost with all other variables equal is about twice the air pressure. Well, LT1 is using 11 to 1 piston compression. That is potentially 5x more pressure than you are ever going to see in a LS fuel injection system. So LT adds another mechanical pump with camshaft lobes is what I'm told. On the "at the limit" builds on the Corvette boards getting fuel is actually more of a factor than the air. For years I have been saying that airflow available from the forced induction system has always limited max power potential of these engine. It seems I may have to change my tune to the real power limitation of these DI engines is fuel delivery.

So far most of the forced induction kits are set up to give more air but it seems obvious to me at this point that some fuel system upgrades will be mandatory to tap into what these engines can really do with the air available from a supercharger or turbo.

Within the next couple of weeks we will have results for my car with a lift pump upgrade. For the guys that know me, it probably is just a matter of time before the cam pump is upgraded. Once I start to mod a car, it can be a bit of an addiction for me.

Thank you jessrayo for the input and information. I do have a lot to learn, obviously. For now I will keep on researching and I will wait for AGP to come out with a kit. Hopefully, they will have a kit with different "levels" of power that will include everything necessary to get it done. I am still on the fence regarding cost, simplicity, and mainly reliability when it comes to an aftermarket FI system (be it a PD, Centri, or TT system). PD SC systems seems to be the easiest setup but I am not sure about that either. This is my DD which I am looking to add an extra, nice punch to it. For no reason besides liking the number, I would love to have 600rwhp (would prefer no Meth). Not even sure if that is attainable without major changes to the car. Cannot afford a ZL1 . so I will work with what I have but it is still a DD

Always open for input and suggestions!!

Thanks again and I can't wait to see your results!!!

[1KillerSS]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

..........................For the guys that know me, it probably is just a matter of time before the cam pump is upgraded. Once I start to mod a car, it can be a bit of an addiction for me.

[Gmanuel]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

If you don't want to make any changes to the fuel system at all, 6 psi is going to be what you want. 6 psi on a stock engine is going to be competitive with all the other kits out there around 550 whp. When the new LT1 superchargers from Eforce, procharger, magnuson came out I was wondering why they all were only using about 6 pounds of boost. Now I know, that is about what the stock fuel system will support in this engine. The ADM LT1 car with LT4 supercharger is making more boost but he includes fuel system upgrades in the kit. When Redline did their first stage "stock engine" turbo kit they upgraded the tank pump right from the start and made a very respectable 657 whp. Just based on what the guys at Redline have done, I'm guessing there is another 100whp available in upgrading the lift pump in the fuel tank. That is a lot of additional power if you can get the corresponding air into the engine.

I assume AGP will eventually have a kit designed to run at its maximum efficiency on the stock fuel system with only 6 pounds of boost. The thing about turbochargers is the turbo is an inertia system driven by exhaust gasses and not a belt like a supercharger. That makes them more efficient in the long run but to minimize turbo lag you have to be pretty specific about the size of the turbo you install. The further a turbo gets from it's peak efficiency the more you are going to feel it in the car. My ZL1 has twin turbos that can make 900whp each. If I tried to run them at 6 pounds of boost...they would come on so hard they would hit like shot of nitrous and then the wastegate would just open up and bleed all the "extra boost" into the atmosphere. Actually my ZL1 does this now if the supercharger is not on the car but it is a 1000whp shot.

The turbos I have in my '16 SS are good for about 400-450whp each. So running the turbos at 6 psi and 550whp is still pretty far below the best efficiency of these turbos on my car. AGP is upgrading my first stage of fuel pump now.

I have not seen a lot about this on the Camaro boards but the direct injection LT motors have a 2 stage fuel pump system where the LS motors just had the one stage. Direct injection must have a lot more pressure because the injector is spraying into a combustion chamber that is in a compression stroke where the old system sprayed into the air that was either atmosphere or boost. I don't remember my exact physics but one atmosphere is generally equal to around 15 pounds of boost so 15 pounds of boost with all other variables equal is about twice the air pressure. Well, LT1 is using 11 to 1 piston compression. That is potentially 5x more pressure than you are ever going to see in a LS fuel injection system. So LT adds another mechanical pump with camshaft lobes is what I'm told. On the "at the limit" builds on the Corvette boards getting fuel is actually more of a factor than the air. For years I have been saying that airflow available from the forced induction system has always limited max power potential of these engine. It seems I may have to change my tune to the real power limitation of these DI engines is fuel delivery.

So far most of the forced induction kits are set up to give more air but it seems obvious to me at this point that some fuel system upgrades will be mandatory to tap into what these engines can really do with the air available from a supercharger or turbo.

Within the next couple of weeks we will have results for my car with a lift pump upgrade. For the guys that know me, it probably is just a matter of time before the cam pump is upgraded. Once I start to mod a car, it can be a bit of an addiction for me.

Not sure what the injection pressures are for the LT1, but on the N54, it's up to 3000psi. With the N54, the first fuel system upgrade one would do, is upgrade the in tank pump to a walbro 450; granted even the in tank pump (LPFP in bimmer jargon) targeted 72psi, so its flow rate was significantly lower than the normal 40psi flow. This allowed you to run higher ethanol mixes, and supplied the HPFP with enough fuel for it to become the bottleneck. So it seems like the LT1 and N54 have that in common. The pump driven off the cam lobe can flow enough for ~650whp, right?
Now there's guys running 2 walbro 450s, in tank, with supplementary port injection driven off Hobbs switches.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Gmanuel

Not sure what the injection pressures are for the LT1, but on the N54, it's up to 3000psi. With the N54, the first fuel system upgrade one would do, is upgrade the in tank pump to a walbro 450; granted even the in tank pump (LPFP in bimmer jargon) targeted 72psi, so its flow rate was significantly lower than the normal 40psi flow. This allowed you to run higher ethanol mixes, and supplied the HPFP with enough fuel for it to become the bottleneck. So it seems like the LT1 and N54 have that in common. The pump driven off the cam lobe can flow enough for ~650whp, right?
Now there's guys running 2 walbro 450s, in tank, with supplementary port injection driven off Hobbs switches.

It is interesting you mention this because before this line of LT motors came out GM was fairly conservative on the engineering they used to make power and were kind of their own entity. I would suspect the GM engineers benchmarked engines like the BMW N54 while they were developing their direct injection system so now the GM after market may be able to learn some things from the guys that have been modding BMWs for the last few years. I actually googled a topic a few days ago and found myself on a BMW forum getting usable information....

[MIAMI2SSRS]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

If you don't want to make any changes to the fuel system at all, 6 psi is going to be what you want. 6 psi on a stock engine is going to be competitive with all the other kits out there around 550 whp. When the new LT1 superchargers from Eforce, procharger, magnuson came out I was wondering why they all were only using about 6 pounds of boost. Now I know, that is about what the stock fuel system will support in this engine. The ADM LT1 car with LT4 supercharger is making more boost but he includes fuel system upgrades in the kit. When Redline did their first stage "stock engine" turbo kit they upgraded the tank pump right from the start and made a very respectable 657 whp. Just based on what the guys at Redline have done, I'm guessing there is another 100whp available in upgrading the lift pump in the fuel tank. That is a lot of additional power if you can get the corresponding air into the engine.

I assume AGP will eventually have a kit designed to run at its maximum efficiency on the stock fuel system with only 6 pounds of boost. The thing about turbochargers is the turbo is an inertia system driven by exhaust gasses and not a belt like a supercharger. That makes them more efficient in the long run but to minimize turbo lag you have to be pretty specific about the size of the turbo you install. The further a turbo gets from it's peak efficiency the more you are going to feel it in the car. My ZL1 has twin turbos that can make 900whp each. If I tried to run them at 6 pounds of boost...they would come on so hard they would hit like shot of nitrous and then the wastegate would just open up and bleed all the "extra boost" into the atmosphere. Actually my ZL1 does this now if the supercharger is not on the car but it is a 1000whp shot.

The turbos I have in my '16 SS are good for about 400-450whp each. So running the turbos at 6 psi and 550whp is still pretty far below the best efficiency of these turbos on my car. AGP is upgrading my first stage of fuel pump now.

I have not seen a lot about this on the Camaro boards but the direct injection LT motors have a 2 stage fuel pump system where the LS motors just had the one stage. Direct injection must have a lot more pressure because the injector is spraying into a combustion chamber that is in a compression stroke where the old system sprayed into the air that was either atmosphere or boost. I don't remember my exact physics but one atmosphere is generally equal to around 15 pounds of boost so 15 pounds of boost with all other variables equal is about twice the air pressure. Well, LT1 is using 11 to 1 piston compression. That is potentially 5x more pressure than you are ever going to see in a LS fuel injection system. So LT adds another mechanical pump with camshaft lobes is what I'm told. On the "at the limit" builds on the Corvette boards getting fuel is actually more of a factor than the air. For years I have been saying that airflow available from the forced induction system has always limited max power potential of these engine. It seems I may have to change my tune to the real power limitation of these DI engines is fuel delivery.

So far most of the forced induction kits are set up to give more air but it seems obvious to me at this point that some fuel system upgrades will be mandatory to tap into what these engines can really do with the air available from a supercharger or turbo.

Within the next couple of weeks we will have results for my car with a lift pump upgrade. For the guys that know me, it probably is just a matter of time before the cam pump is upgraded. Once I start to mod a car, it can be a bit of an addiction for me.

How is the build going? Any updates/results from further tests?

Please, let us know.

Thank you.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by MIAMI2SSRS

How is the build going? Any updates/results from further tests?

Please, let us know.

Thank you.

The car is done and sitting in Arizona ready for me to bring it home. I still have not seen a dyno sheet but I got the numbers over the phone. Car made 660whp and 700wtq with the lift pump upgrade. It has the newest, fastest spooling turbos available that I'm told have only been available for a few months. We will need to get AGP to give us the specifics on the turbos.... It is supposed to be making boost as fast as the 8 speed transmission can hit a downshift. No perceptible lag I'm told. I will have to get it on the road course to really see for myself how the transitions to power feel coming out of fast corners.... Those dyno numbers are really good, that matches the whp ADM got when it dynoed a stock Hellcat and beats the fat kitty by 90 ft/pounds of torque (that was the car I was shooting for in total power).

The guy I have been using as a car hauler had a death in the family so my scheduled pick-up had to get pushed back. I elected at the last minute to just fly out to Arizona and drive the car home so tomorrow morning I will be on the road for 1000 miles.... When I get home on Saturday night or Sunday I should have a very good idea about the car.