[Redlinez]

Dang, Rockauto makes it so easy. No reason to buy anywhere else unless you're in a hurry.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

Is there a UPC or part number to order the 5L M1 0W-40 ESP jugs from your attached picture in the US? I have only seen 1Qt bottles of it available here and 1L previously before they switched to 1Qt.

EDIT found it: 5055107438275

No US sellers that I can find though.

Is this Dexos2 certified?

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by mlee

That's there I get my oil...

Here's the Ask Al question that explains this and still valid today.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535476

There was another thread from both Tadge and Al which also speaks about 5w40 dexos2 for both street/track. See my sticky in Mechanical section. Cheers!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Actually, those are some pretty good prices.

I got some quotes on the prices of the Motel 8100 X-Clean 5W-40 today. Not bad at all. I can get a 5L jug for CAN$43 which is like US$33. For a Dexos 2 oil that's actually a very very good price. I will see how much the ESP 0W-40 costs. Will see if I can get a hold of the distributor.

For people saying that 0W is better for cold starts, I agree, but then 5W-30 is deemed acceptable for street use, so I don't see how 5W-40 is not okay to use for both street and track use. Both are of similar viscosity at cold, hence 5W.

Sent from toaster or something

Cold start at minus 20C is very different than a cold start at say plus 15C And to your point, 5W30 is authorized for street use. But not only that, as 15W50 is mandated for ZLE track use only. And they only reason it is not allowed for DD as it would be way too hard on cats, especially in cold running. Cheers!

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Cold start at minus 20C is very different than a cold start at say plus 15C And to your point, 5W30 is authorized for street use. But not only that, as 15W50 is mandated for ZLE track use only. And they only reason it is not allowed for DD as it would be way too hard on cats, especially in cold running. Cheers!

Yes, a cold start at -20C is very different than one +15C, but even at 15C there is a big difference in resistance to flow between a 0wXX and a 5wXX, and there a massive difference for a 15wXX. The 0wXX flows a lot better even at 40C. Again, the reason 15w50 isn't allowed for street use is that it won't flow well in a cold start, and street use usually involves plenty of cold/coldish-start scenarios.

[6spdhyperblue]

Track club is not wrong about the cats either

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Msquared

Yes, a cold start at -20C is very different than one +15C, but even at 15C there is a big difference in resistance to flow between a 0wXX and a 5wXX, and there a massive difference for a 15wXX. The 0wXX flows a lot better even at 40C. Again, the reason 15w50 isn't allowed for street use is that it won't flow well in a cold start, and street use usually involves plenty of cold/coldish-start scenarios.

I bet to disagree on both points. 5w provides plenty of cold start flow protection even in winter. Look up the spec.
Otoh, too much cold start winter protection in summer is not necessarily a good thing. I would argue, that 5w is much better for summer use than 0w, as it will actually offer more protection during starts (because of higher viscosity).

15w50 is not permitted for DD, NOT because it doesn't offer proper cold start protection. GM makes no claim not to use this oil for track based on ambient temps. Some may track their car at 10C ambient and this oil is perfectly fine for that. The issue is not the 15w, but rather the w50, which is very high in zinc. Read: it would destroy the cats prematurely during regular DD driving.
Cheers!

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I bet to disagree on both points. 5w provides plenty of cold start flow protection even in winter. Look up the spec.
Otoh, too much cold start winter protection in summer is not necessarily a good thing. I would argue, that 5w is much better for summer use than 0w, as it will actually offer more protection during starts (because of higher viscosity).

The viscosity of any of these oils - even 0wXX - at startup is many times higher than what it is once they reach operating temps. As I showed before, the 100C viscosity for these various weights ranges from 12.9mm2/s to 18, but the 40C viscosity ranges from 69-125! No modern engine is build to run long or hard with oil at 69mm2/s, much less 125mm2/s! They are meant to run with oil viscosity in the teens. That's why you are supposed to wait for oil temps to come up before you go hammer on the engine.

So the idea that oil with a cold-start viscosity of 79mm2/s (5wXX ) is somehow protecting better than one at 69mm2/s makes no sense. Both of those viscosities are several times higher than the engine manufacturer want. That's exactly why 0w oils exist: to protect modern, small-clearance motors better during cool/cold starts.

15w50 is not permitted for DD, NOT because it doesn't offer proper cold start protection. GM makes no claim not to use this oil for track based on ambient temps. Some may track their car at 10C ambient and this oil is perfectly fine for that. The issue is not the 15w, but rather the w50, which is very high in zinc. Read: it would destroy the cats prematurely during regular DD driving.

I don't doubt that the zinc is an issue for the cats. I do doubt that this is the only reason GM doesn't want people to use that weight. Mobil 1 15w50 has 1200ppm zinc and the ESP oils all have 900ppm. It's not that big a difference. Many of M1's racing oils and other niche products have way more zinc than the 15w50 does. I still believe that 15w50's relatively poor cool/cold start flow is at least as important in GM saying not to use it on the street.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Msquared

The viscosity of any of these oils - even 0wXX - at startup is many times higher than what it is once they reach operating temps. As I showed before, the 100C viscosity for these various weights ranges from 12.9mm2/s to 18, but the 40C viscosity ranges from 69-125! No modern engine is build to run long or hard with oil at 69mm2/s, much less 125mm2/s! They are meant to run with oil viscosity in the teens. That's why you are supposed to wait for oil temps to come up before you go hammer on the engine.

So the idea that oil with a cold-start viscosity of 79mm2/s (5wXX ) is somehow protecting better than one at 69mm2/s makes no sense. Both of those viscosities are several times higher than the engine manufacturer want. That's exactly why 0w oils exist: to protect modern, small-clearance motors better during cool/cold starts.


I don't doubt that the zinc is an issue for the cats. I do doubt that this is the only reason GM doesn't want people to use that weight. Mobil 1 15w50 has 1200ppm zinc and the ESP oils all have 900ppm. It's not that big a difference. Many of M1's racing oils and other niche products have way more zinc than the 15w50 does. I still believe that 15w50's relatively poor cool/cold start flow is at least as important in GM saying not to use it on the street.

My key point is, there is virtually zero difference in how 0w and 5w will protect a motor at start up, unless it is minus 35C. While w40 will protect it equally at high temp like track duty. So, there is zero reason to pay extra for limited choices of 0w unless somebody uses a car in extremely cold climate during winters.

I disagree that 15w offers inadequate cold start up protection. If that were the case GM would never put it on the list as it would cost them motor warranties. That weight is designed to protect start ups at minus 10C. I dont think anyone sane would track their car at that temp. 900 vs 1200 zinc is a huge vs minor difference as far as cats go. That's a major consideration for a Dexos2 certification, as GM warranties emission systems for 8 yrs by law. Sure, race oils are something else altogether, but so are race motors, lack emissions, lack of any warranties altogether, etc. So apples to bananas type of comparison

Cheers!

[mlee]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

There was another thread from both Tadge and Al which also speaks about 5w40 dexos2 for both street/track. See my sticky in Mechanical section. Cheers!

I member that but wasn't that before Corvette went with 0W40.

[TrackClub]

8

Originally Posted by mlee

I member that but wasn't that before Corvette went with 0W40.

I believe it was right after, when folks questioned 0w40 vs 5w40 and hence they both addressed that very specific question.

Lest we forget, the original factory fill was 5w30 for 2 or 3 yrs while 0w40 and 5w40 were officially approved as track/dd oils (plus 15w50 for ZLE of course, because of G3Rs and for track only). Since then, NOTHING has changed with LT1/LT4 except for a marketing deal with Mobil1.

IMO, the issue GM was addressing here, was a fact that their dealers carried nothing but 5w30 for both cars. So they were losing a piece of the market, plus profit margins present with more expensive oils (let's not forget how dealers make money).

The 0w40 ESP Formula was specifically developed for a Vette and adopted as factory fill for both cars. However, GM does not mention Mobil1 anywhere in the manuals. So, they are super comfy leaving a brand choice to ourselves, as long as the oil meets Dexos2. Of course, if one takes it to a dealer, they will pay the highest possible price for an oil change (after 2 free fills).

As much as many may go this route and as much as Mobil1 marketing (at least in the early days), suggests there is no better oil for these cars, it sure looks like GM is not really prepared to make such claims.

NB I had been using Valvoline MST 5w40 until they changed the recipe, then switched to Motul 5w40 Dexos2. I see absolutely zero reason to pay twice the cost only to have -40C vs -30C protection, neither of which my car will ever experience even remotely.

Cheers!

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

My key point is, there is virtually zero difference in how 0w and 5w will protect a motor at start up, unless it is minus 35C.

This is factually not true. While I agree that they both probably provide similar protection to any surface once fresh oil flow reaches that surface, the fact is that even at 40C (not -40C) it will take 14% longer for fresh oil to get there. That's literally what viscosity means, and the 5w has 14% higher viscosity at that temp than the 0w. I don't know what the difference at 0C is, but it's surely even greater than 14%. The -35C and -40C data points you reference are the temps below which the two oils will not flow at all. But that doesn't mean that there is no difference above those temps.

I disagree that 15w offers inadequate cold start up protection. If that were the case GM would never put it on the list as it would cost them motor warranties.

By that logic, though, GM would never have put it on the list because it also provides inadequate protection for the cats, as you noted. Clearly, GM is saying that a ZLE stresses and sloshes the oil so much on track that the damage to the cats from the extra zinc and wear to the surfaces from one single cold start at the track (or getting to the track) is less than would be the damage from using a thinner oil at high temp. That's just a calculated tradeoff of pros and cons. In normal street use, the tradeoff swings the other way and they specify a 0w40 because the car won't be seeing mild use with lots of cool/cold starts.

Why would someone go through the trouble and expense of following GM's recommendation for track oil in a ZLE but then brush off their recommendations aside for street use? The manual for 2020 says that 15w50 is "is required [for track use] in the ZL1 1LE, but after track use must be changed back to 0W-40 dexos2 for street use." For an LT1, it specifies 0w40 for street use and either 0w40 or 15w15 for track use. Nowhere in either manual does it say that 5w40 should be used for any purpose.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Msquared

This is factually not true. While I agree that they both probably provide similar protection to any surface once fresh oil flow reaches that surface, the fact is that even at 40C (not -40C) it will take 14% longer for fresh oil to get there. That's literally what viscosity means, and the 5w has 14% higher viscosity at that temp than the 0w. I don't know what the difference at 0C is, but it's surely even greater than 14%. The -35C and -40C data points you reference are the temps below which the two oils will not flow at all. But that doesn't mean that there is no difference above those temps.


By that logic, though, GM would never have put it on the list because it also provides inadequate protection for the cats, as you noted. Clearly, GM is saying that a ZLE stresses and sloshes the oil so much on track that the damage to the cats from the extra zinc and wear to the surfaces from one single cold start at the track (or getting to the track) is less than would be the damage from using a thinner oil at high temp. That's just a calculated tradeoff of pros and cons. In normal street use, the tradeoff swings the other way and they specify a 0w40 because the car won't be seeing mild use with lots of cool/cold starts.

Why would someone go through the trouble and expense of following GM's recommendation for track oil in a ZLE but then brush off their recommendations aside for street use? The manual for 2020 says that 15w50 is "is required [for track use] in the ZL1 1LE, but after track use must be changed back to 0W-40 dexos2 for street use." For an LT1, it specifies 0w40 for street use and either 0w40 or 15w15 for track use. Nowhere in either manual does it say that 5w40 should be used for any purpose.

We are starting to split hairs

0w is a winter rating. Yes it is lower viscosity, which excels in low winter temps, but in summer time, it is not just the speed of flow that counts, but viscosity. And higher viscosity is by all means better in higher summer temps. So...you suggested some 44% higher zinc is "little", but all of a sudden 14% of what is likely a millisecond is now huge? Let's play fair, eh?

If 5w viscosity was somehow inferior for summer starts, sure as heck GM would never approve 15w oil for ANY use whatsoever. Nor approved 5w30 as **all year round** dd oil.

In that vain, GM states ZLE must use 15w50 to avoid possible pick up issues, yet tons of ppl run G3R and even full slicks on zl1s and ss 1les with w40 oils with zero issues.

You are correct, there is no 5w40 mentioned in 2020 manual, but it was mentioned in previous year manuals and it is still mentioned in the official track prep manual dated 2019 (haven't checked the 2020).
NOTHING has changed with LT1 or LT4 motors since gen6 inception. My 2017 manual said Valvoline 5w40.
Heck, even 2020 manual says 5w30 for dd all year round. Finally, both Big Al and Tadge have publicly stated, in writing, that 5w40 is fine. So what exactly is the issue here?

Again, my point is this: i see ZERO reason to pay TWICE the price just to run 0w40 vs 5w40 in summer time. And if i just dd my car i would run 5w30 and save even more $. Per OFFICIAL GM RECOMMENDATION.

Cheers!

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

0w is a winter rating. Yes it is lower viscosity, which excels in low winter temps, but in summer time, it is not just the speed of flow that counts, but viscosity. And higher viscosity is by all means better in higher summer temps.

Up to a point. But even 0w40 at 40C has almost four times higher viscosity of 15w50 at 100C. All oils have really high viscosity at ambient summer temps (30-40C). Going from 69mm2/s to 79mm2/s doesn't provide better protection.

So...you suggested some 44% higher zinc is "little", but all of a sudden 14% of what is likely a millisecond is now huge? Let's play fair, eh?

Well, the 15w50 only has 31% higher zinc than 0w40 ESP.* OTOH, I didn't say there was a "huge" difference in cold-start flow. I just said 5w leaves your lubricated parts unlubricated 14% longer than 0w when you start up cool or cold, with no downside in other aspects of lubrication. It does one thing better and nothing worse - that's all.

Heck, even 2020 manual says 5w30 for dd all year round.

At least from 2020 forward (maybe earlier?) the use of 5w30 Dexos 2 is only approved if 0w40 Dexos 2 is not available. The manual is clear that 0w40 is the recommended oil. Using your own logic, if 0w were really worse at protecting your car during a cold start in warm temps, then GM wouldn't approve it, and they certainly wouldn't use it as factory fill!

Again, my point is this: i see ZERO reason to pay TWICE the price just to run 0w40 vs 5w40 in summer time. And if i just dd my car i would run 5w30 and save even more $. Per OFFICIAL GM RECOMMENDATION.

Your point earlier was that 0w40 provides worse startup protection unless it's -35C outside; or in other posts that they protect the same at startup. Those are the only points to which I've been replying. My point is that this is incorrect. I agree that running a 5w30 or 5w40 isn't going to cause your car to suddenly self-destruct. But not only is 0w40 not worse than 5w40 for an engine like you said, it's actually better. That's my point.

If the only reason you want to run a 5w oil is to save money, then I can't argue with that because one choice isn't "better" than another when it comes to a cost:benefit decision. Earlier in this thread I noted that Rockauto sells M1 0W40 ESP for $6.72/qt. What other Dexos 2 5w30 or 5w40 can you get for half that price? The cheapest I've seen is the Amalie stuff at about $5.50/qt, so these days M1 is nowhere near twice the price. For $1.22/qt difference, to me it makes sense to run the specified oil. But that's just me.

*I screwed up the amount of zinc in both! 15w50 has 1300ppm zinc, but 0w40ESP has 990.