[khcoaching]

There is no doubt a stock GT4 in capable hands is weapon, as is the SS 1LE. Stock for stock from what I have witnessed, they are very close. That said, the GT4 in my experience, becomes is more limited to faster lap times. It takes more (upgrades) to get the GT4 to lap quicker, not to mention the cost to make that happen over the SS 1LE.

With my car, I'm a bit torn for next steps, as I'm at the point where power is an issue and is where I am getting gapped the most from the old guy Porsche racer club. That said, I haven't been on slicks yet....

Ken

[TheSpectre]

This was a very interesting thread to read. I only regret I've been away so long I didn't get to contribute sooner.


I know the main question has largely been settled by the OP getting a GT4, but I thought I'd still throw in my 0.02.


I've been the owner of a 981 Boxster GTS since new in 2015. It's a wonderful car, but no car is perfect, and I've come to learn that there are cars you think you'll love, then there are cars you actually will love (sorta like picking a spouse).


I ordered my Porsche 7 years ago because after test driving them I, too, was amazed by its natural balance, its flat six wail (IMO the 3.4L sounds way better than the 4.0 used in the 718 GTS and GT4, but not the GT4 RS where it sounds orgasmic), the build quality, the customer experience, etc.


I'm not a track guy (not because I don't want to, but because until recently I haven't had any access), but I get my kicks beating the snot out of my cars on the countless winding mountain/canyon roads of my home province. I only "go nuts" as it were, when I'm solo and there are no other cars around, otherwise on the highways and busy arteries I do my best to be respectful and courteous.


Even without being a Spyder or a GT4, the GTS, and I reckon the entire 981 line, is so stupidly composed that the car is almost bored at anything you try to do unless you're suicidal. Without the track, I've only ever gotten the car to lose grip at all four wheels once, when cresting a hill while simultaneously making a sharp right turn (this was not on a mountain and thus despite the elevation changes I had long distance visibility), and even then only briefly.


The flat six wail is addictive, but you have to be flooring it, otherwise it's not really there... and this is partly why many people (including myself) have bitched at Porsche about the long gearing (I have a six speed), since even on a highway, this is what happens:


- put your foot all the way down WAIL shit into second WAIL, and as you are about to shift into third, you're already going 130 kph.... anything more and you're getting a ticket, impounded, or worse, and there are still four gears to go.


If you're a track person, there can be no better chassis than a modern mid-engined Porsche. If you're a road trip and back road sort of person, it may not be the best option. I miss my old SRT 392 for its sense of drama and occasion even while cruising, but I admit I don't miss it's back road demeanor (it can boogie, it just doesn't WANT to).. which is why I'm back on camaro6.com and thinking about picking up a 1LE soon (very soon). It wouldn't replace my 981, but it would supplement it (a C8 HTC Z51 WILL be replacing my Porsche, but the list I'm on currently indicates it will be another 3 years).


So yeah, long term experience from a P-car owner. The long gearing is annoying af for enthusiastic back road driving (although I suspect it's a boon for the track), and the chassis is unflappable. For some this confidence is what they want, and for others, like me, a little more drama in the proceedings is desired.


Like I said earlier, it's like the difference between the hot girl you want some, uh, "experience" with, and the woman you fall in love with and dedicate your life to.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by NG329

Funny enough, at my last NJMP Lightning Track Day, my ZL1-1LE and a Yellow Cayman GT4 were turning the fastest laps at the event.

As much as I love Nurburgring bragging rights, it really is a terrible benchmark for automotive comparisons… On that course the Cayman GT4 is nearly 5 seconds a lap faster than the SS 1LE which is an Eternity. Cayman GT4 > SS 1LE and it oughta be for the price.

Lightning Lap (VIR)
Year Make Model, Lap Time
2020 Porsche 718 Cayman GT4, 2:50.3
2014 Ferrari F12berlinetta, 2:50.8
2015 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28, 2:50.9 ←WHAT is going on here?

Notice how the old Zeta chassis Z/28 is still ahead of newer, lighter, and in some cases more powerful cars. How can that be? Better chassis, suspension, tires, and brakes. Given the improvement in technology since 2015 including tires, brakes, and aero (on product cars) the Z/28 lap time is still impressive and not that far behind the 5 year newer tech GT4. That said, I’ve run with a few different GT4s on track in advanced run group and have never failed to reel them in and pass, except for one very wet session. YMMV.

Originally Posted by NG329

You said it right there. You can't stretch the cars legs. The GT500 and the SS-1LE are in completely different leagues. In 9 out of 10 scenarios the GT500 murders the SS-1LE including lateral G's and braking.

ALMN is trying to highlight the fact that SS 1LE handles very well even compared to ZLE/GT500. And is not as disadvantaged in stock form until run on longer tracks where the more powerful cars (with sticker tires, more aero, and better brakes) can exploit HP/TQ and other advantages..etc. The same is true of GT350R vs SS 1LE, I’ve run with a few on different days, again advanced run group, and have yet to fail to catch and release them. On a very long track that of course could change because of ~70HP disadvantage.

Originally Posted by NG329

Cayman GT4 - 1.64 seconds a lap faster than the SS-1LE. Some basic math.... over a 20 lap race how much time behind is that?

With a pro behind the wheel sure, and if it were my GT4 I’d be disappointed in such a small gap (relative to purchase price) between these two. Add R comp tire and the gap is closed, add camber plates and GT4 is going backward, now add lighter wheels and maybe more aggressive pads and bye bye GT4 (stock). How is that not the best bang for your buck street/track car? ZLE is a great car but will never be labeled comfortable. As for your comment regarding ZLE and modified SS 1LE not even close… a N/A SS 1LE with the mods ALMN mentioned above would give a stock ZLE fits and I’d have to put my money on the SS 1LE. ZLE is an awesome car and I am on the hunt for a decent one or a C8… possibly GS when GA. However, you have to remember the ZL1/ZLE supercharger and necessary cooling are heavy. Which does not help roll center or center of gravity as well as more lbs up front and placed high in the engine compartment which is really bad, and does not help the car turn or generate grip.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by TheSpectre

Like I said earlier, it's like the difference between the hot girl you want some, uh, "experience" with, and the woman you fall in love with and dedicate your life to.

Man, I'm dealing with this right now. I have a property in another country and my tenant is a former Miss Universe contestant. She's the hottest and sexiest girl I've ever interacted with and I have a real shot at/with her. The problem is that my wife has never done wrong by me and loves me to death. This dilemma has caused me the most anguish I have ever experienced as a man. It really sucks.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Lightning Lap (VIR)
Year Make Model, Lap Time
2020 Porsche 718 Cayman GT4, 2:50.3
2014 Ferrari F12berlinetta, 2:50.8
2015 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28, 2:50.9 ←WHAT is going on here?

Notice how the old Zeta chassis Z/28 is still ahead of newer, lighter, and in some cases more powerful cars. How can that be? Better chassis, suspension, tires, and brakes. Given the improvement in technology since 2015 including tires, brakes, and aero (on product cars) the Z/28 lap time is still impressive and not that far behind the 5 year newer tech GT4. That said, I’ve run with a few different GT4s on track in advanced run group and have never failed to reel them in and pass, except for one very wet session. YMMV.



ALMN is trying to highlight the fact that SS 1LE handles very well even compared to ZLE/GT500. And is not as disadvantaged in stock form until run on longer tracks where the more powerful cars (with sticker tires, more aero, and better brakes) can exploit HP/TQ and other advantages..etc. The same is true of GT350R vs SS 1LE, I’ve run with a few on different days, again advanced run group, and have yet to fail to catch and release them. On a very long track that of course could change because of ~70HP disadvantage.




With a pro behind the wheel sure, and if it were my GT4 I’d be disappointed in such a small gap (relative to purchase price) between these two. Add R comp tire and the gap is closed, add camber plates and GT4 is going backward, now add lighter wheels and maybe more aggressive pads and bye bye GT4 (stock). How is that not the best bang for your buck street/track car? ZLE is a great car but will never be labeled comfortable. As for your comment regarding ZLE and modified SS 1LE not even close… a N/A SS 1LE with the mods ALMN mentioned above would give a stock ZLE fits and I’d have to put my money on the SS 1LE. ZLE is an awesome car and I am on the hunt for a decent one or a C8… possibly GS when GA. However, you have to remember the ZL1/ZLE supercharger and necessary cooling are heavy. Which does not help roll center or center of gravity as well as more lbs up front and placed high in the engine compartment which is really bad, and does not help the car turn or generate grip.

All good and fair points.

Love the banter y'all. Keep 'em coming.

[TRZ06]

Iv'e been away for a bit, seems like my thread has gained some additional traction, lol

Now with 12K miles on my GT4, I still stand by all the points I made earlier.

The last couple of pages of back and forth are only concentrating on the track times and performance numbers. Very one sided.

There are things that you get in a Porsche & GT4 that you can not get on a SS 1LE, hence the reason I switched in the first place this includes..... Mid engine (this one is HUGE), PDK gearbox, light weight, low center of gravity, high revving motor.

Then you have the build quality, material quality, and the cockpit layout. Swapping back and forth between a Camaro and a Porsche GT4, the vibe is way different. One feels upscale and the other cheap. Some may not care about that, but that is a factor for me since it is not just a weekend car for me.

Having said all that, after almost a year of ownership, is the GT4 worth more than double the SS 1LE, NO.

For the person that said they can match or beat the GT4 lateral G numbers in an SS 1LE, given equal tires, you obviously have not driven a GT4. The MOST lateral G's I saw in my SS 1LE was 1.25 and ONLY on new tires, I see 1.4+ G's all day long on my GT4 on the same corners and with similar alignments.

I am on the wait list for the C8 Z06, that is going to be the rock star and the car I will keep long term, but I am in for a long wait. Until then I will enjoy the GT4 and I have come to terms with its shortcomings (mostly being how much the chassis moves around, and limited suspension travel), you just have to drive it differently than a Camaro. It's a two handed affair rather than a one handed one like in the Camaro (on broken pavement, on smooth pavement the GT4 is just as easy to drive fast one handed)

Knowing what I know now, if you were to ask me would I make the move again, my answer would be it depends on what you are doing with the car. For road trips and navigating CA's crappy roads at high speeds, then SS 1LE all day long. If you are on back roads, canyon runs, or on smooth pavement, then GT4 all day long. That will be the beauty of the C8 Z06, it will combine the best from both cars into one, unfortunately everyone knows it and wants one.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

There are things that you get in a Porsche & GT4 that you can not get on a SS 1LE, hence the reason I switched in the first place this includes..... Mid engine (this one is HUGE), PDK gearbox, light weight, low center of gravity, high revving motor.

Then you have the build quality, material quality, and the cockpit layout. Swapping back and forth between a Camaro and a Porsche GT4, the vibe is way different. One feels upscale and the other cheap.

And for the price difference I’d expect nothing less. One thing you may not understand or have lost sight of with the GT4 vs SS 1LE debate is this… 99% of cars are built to a price point, perspective customer and anticipated use case. Obviously there is a big difference between these two cars. That said, you mention C8 Z06 which is built to a price point and will certainly make compromises to hit the price point targets. Based on the information we have now along with current and past race results of C8.R. I’d imagine the perofmance will be beyond GT3 RS and close to our even better than GT2 RS. However, the C8 will have compromises vs both of these. Again owing to the price point and perspective customers. Materials and build quality will most likely pale in comparison to GT2/3 RS cars. But for guys like myself that are heavily focused on performance and value, this won’t matter at all. For instance when I purchased my SS 1LE my wife picked the color, I could have cared less if it was pink. I was only focused on performance and track prowess.

Originally Posted by TRZ06

Having said all that, after almost a year of ownership, is the GT4 worth more than double the SS 1LE, NO.

Agree.

Originally Posted by TRZ06

For the person that said they can match or beat the GT4 lateral G numbers in an SS 1LE, given equal tires, you obviously have not driven a GT4. The MOST lateral G's I saw in my SS 1LE was 1.25 and ONLY on new tires, I see 1.4+ G's all day long on my GT4 on the same corners and with similar alignments.

This comment shows you are not well versed here. Do you recall the scene from Tin Cup where Kevin Costner and Don Johnson have a long drive contest? LOL… I’m ceratin anyone one on this forum that has run on a circle track or a track with banking has easily exceed the number you mention. I know I have at Summit Point Shenandoha at 1.78Gs. Same wil be true for Daytona and North Carolina…etc. Most recently I went to CMP which has relatively minor camber gain in most corners, and generated 1.44Gs. And this was my first visit/day, normally I go 1.5 to 3 seconds faster the second day at a new track. Which would bump that 1.44 higher as I become more comfortable pushing the car harder. By the way what tire does the GT4 come on again?

Originally Posted by TRZ06

Knowing what I know now, if you were to ask me would I make the move again, my answer would be it depends on what you are doing with the car. For road trips and navigating CA's crappy roads at high speeds, then SS 1LE all day long. If you are on back roads, canyon runs, or on smooth pavement, then GT4 all day long. That will be the beauty of the C8 Z06, it will combine the best from both cars into one, unfortunately everyone knows it and wants one.

I find your comment as a positive for SS 1LE considering you have dumped thousands into an after market suspension for your GT4. Additionally, and this is strictly based on my personal experience. I’d take the SS 1LE for “canyons/back roads” over GT4. No bottom end to speak of for GT4, while SS 1lE just grunts out of low speed corners effortlessly. Which most folks on this forum happen to like. To your point both are great cars and are fast/quick with excellent performance, and driving pleasure. They just go about achieving this in different ways and that is what makes everything interesting and exciting.

[NG329]

Originally Posted by LESS1

I’d imagine the perofmance will be beyond GT3 RS and close to our even better than GT2 RS.

That's a Talllllllllllllllllllllll order. Those are some big a$$ed boots to fill because the GT3RS is damn near the perfect car. If any car comes close, that is it.

I love GM but I honestly think they're making a mistake trying to "Out-Porsche" Porshe. Mid Engine? Fine, but forced induction is GM's forte!

As disappointed as I am about unlikely ever being able to get a Z06, I kinda don't want to be their Guinea Pig for a 8,600rpm motor.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by NG329

That's a Talllllllllllllllllllllll order. Those are some big a$$ed boots to fill because the GT3RS is damn near the perfect car. If any car comes close, that is it.

I love GM but I honestly think they're making a mistake trying to "Out-Porsche" Porshe. Mid Engine? Fine, but forced induction is GM's forte!

As disappointed as I am about unlikely ever being able to get a Z06, I kinda don't want to be their Guinea Pig for a 8,600rpm motor.

GM isn't trying to do that, and I wasn't implying they were. I do maintain though the new C8 Z06 should be equal to or better than the GT3 RS and land somewhere in between GT3/2 RS. This statement is based on the normal Corvette generational performance trends. For instance, if you look at C7 Z51 vs C8 Z51 you will see that while power and torque have gone up so has vehicle weight. However, HP/TQ per Lb is very similar.

Things get interesting though when you look at the performance figures for these two. We already know C8 Z51 in good conditions will hit 60 in under 3 seconds and complete 1/4 mile in low 11's at ~122 MPH. Which is significantly better than C7 Z51 performance. Handling of these two in terms of lateral g-forces on OEM tires is again very close. Same for braking, where the C8 gains time is on throttle traction such as corner exits. Additionally, a mid-engine car hypothetically should also have an advantage on corner turn in and front end grip.

C8 Z06 with Z07 package and carbon wheels should be an incredible performer and if we look at the C&D Lightning Laps for C7/8 Z51 you will notice a ~4.8 second delta. Taking these times with a grain of salt... it is safe to assume the C8 Z51 is ~3.5 seconds faster than the C7 Z51 at LL. Applying this logic to the 2015 Z06 (Non Z07 I believe) LL times and factor in new aerodynamic enhancements with reduced drag as well as Z07 pkg and carbon wheels, which reduce unsprung mass by ~40lbs in addition to Z07 carbon brakes along with lower front end weight (compared to C7 Z06) from not having a supercharger and mandatory extra cooling to support, which by the way is weight above the center of gravity and that is always bad. Should produce a much better handling platform vs C7 Z06. Nonetheless, the C8 Z06 w Z07 and carbon wheels will be hard for any manufacturer to beat regardless of price including GT3 RS.

Car C7 Z51 ?LT C8 Z51 2LT
Weight 3436 3647
HP/TQ 460/465 495/470
HP/TQ per Lb 7.46/7.38 7.36/7.75
C&D LL 2:53.8 2:49.0

Not sure you would be a guinea pig with Z06 since Chevy has been racing this engine for a few seasons now and has been hunting bugs along the way. I'd be more concerned about the dealership Technicians that will service these new engines. I'm not a fan of V-8/12 FPC engines and would rather have a NA CPC large displacement V8... updated LT1/2 platform 427 perhaps in C8 Grand Sport with Z07 pkg. Sign me up. Either way, I'm holding out until the C8 GS is GA and will see what they decide to bring to the market before exiting my 2019 SS 1LE.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by LESS1

And for the price difference I’d expect nothing less. One thing you may not understand or have lost sight of with the GT4 vs SS 1LE debate is this… 99% of cars are built to a price point, perspective customer and anticipated use case. Obviously there is a big difference between these two cars. That said, you mention C8 Z06 which is built to a price point and will certainly make compromises to hit the price point targets. Based on the information we have now along with current and past race results of C8.R. I’d imagine the perofmance will be beyond GT3 RS and close to our even better than GT2 RS. However, the C8 will have compromises vs both of these. Again owing to the price point and perspective customers. Materials and build quality will most likely pale in comparison to GT2/3 RS cars. But for guys like myself that are heavily focused on performance and value, this won’t matter at all. For instance when I purchased my SS 1LE my wife picked the color, I could have cared less if it was pink. I was only focused on performance and track prowess.




Agree.



This comment shows you are not well versed here. Do you recall the scene from Tin Cup where Kevin Costner and Don Johnson have a long drive contest? LOL… I’m ceratin anyone one on this forum that has run on a circle track or a track with banking has easily exceed the number you mention. I know I have at Summit Point Shenandoha at 1.78Gs. Same wil be true for Daytona and North Carolina…etc. Most recently I went to CMP which has relatively minor camber gain in most corners, and generated 1.44Gs. And this was my first visit/day, normally I go 1.5 to 3 seconds faster the second day at a new track. Which would bump that 1.44 higher as I become more comfortable pushing the car harder. By the way what tire does the GT4 come on again?





I find your comment as a positive for SS 1LE considering you have dumped thousands into an after market suspension for your GT4. Additionally, and this is strictly based on my personal experience. I’d take the SS 1LE for “canyons/back roads” over GT4. No bottom end to speak of for GT4, while SS 1lE just grunts out of low speed corners effortlessly. Which most folks on this forum happen to like. To your point both are great cars and are fast/quick with excellent performance, and driving pleasure. They just go about achieving this in different ways and that is what makes everything interesting and exciting.

In regards to your comment about the lateral G's, you took my post wrong and out of context. Of course both cars can go much higher on the G meter when you factory in banking and elevation changes.

I am talking about Apples to Apples, not Apples to Oranges. My comment was comparing the two cars on the exact same on/off ramps I take every day in both cars, with similar alignments. The GT4 can simply carry more speed to corners (GIVEN THE SAME CORNERS IN BOTH) because of its lower center of gravity, mid-engine, and light weight.

[NinthWave]

Heard somewhere the 992 GT3RS will try to set official 'Ring time Sep 16 after waiting for cooler weather. A lot will be riding on the new active aero. Haven't heard anything on a C8 Z06 attempt.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by NG329

That's a Talllllllllllllllllllllll order. Those are some big a$$ed boots to fill because the GT3RS is damn near the perfect car. If any car comes close, that is it.

I love GM but I honestly think they're making a mistake trying to "Out-Porsche" Porshe. Mid Engine? Fine, but forced induction is GM's forte!

As disappointed as I am about unlikely ever being able to get a Z06, I kinda don't want to be their Guinea Pig for a 8,600rpm motor.

I don’t think beating the future gt3 RS is a tall order considering the c7 z06 beat the last gen gt3 rs while costing only half as much. The z06 has always punched above its weight and I’d consider it a major disappointment if it’s lap times are slower than the 992 gt3 rs.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by NG329

That's a Talllllllllllllllllllllll order. Those are some big a$$ed boots to fill because the GT3RS is damn near the perfect car. If any car comes close, that is it.

I love GM but I honestly think they're making a mistake trying to "Out-Porsche" Porshe. Mid Engine? Fine, but forced induction is GM's forte!

As disappointed as I am about unlikely ever being able to get a Z06, I kinda don't want to be their Guinea Pig for a 8,600rpm motor.

Yeah, I'd be extremely surprised if the Z06 matches the GT3 RS. The "RS" part is just too hard edged, it sacrifices everything for track ability. Once you look at weight and actual dyno (porsche is undoubtedly measuring at the wheels) the power to weight is not grossly in favor of the Z06. The top speed is lower than the Z06, but that's typical of something that's intended to stick to the ground during high speed turns, they've turned speed you can't get to on a track into downforce. The Z06 IMO is more orientated like the regular GT3, you can absolutely race it on a track, it has the cred and everything to do so, but it hasn't sacrificed everything for it like the RS has.

The Z06 still has trunks, right? The RS has giant ducts there and is trying to control every last bit of airflow. I think it's a no-brainer the GT3 RS will turn a faster time...but at this point the return on their investment is getting incredibly small, the Z06 will get close and cost way less. It'll go head to head with the GTS and regular GT3 and probably do pretty well, if not come out a little on top.

I think the SS 1LE was fairly evenly matched against the last GT4, but the new GT4 RS...well once again, RS.

I would not want a RS trim, these are not day-to-day cars. Even if I went to the track occasionally (well I do), I don't think it would be practical. They are street legal, but far far less practical than anything Chevy is making or probably will make.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

I am talking about Apples to Apples, not Apples to Oranges. My comment was comparing the two cars on the exact same on/off ramps I take every day in both cars, with similar alignments. The GT4 can simply carry more speed to corners (GIVEN THE SAME CORNERS IN BOTH) because of its lower center of gravity, mid-engine, and light weight.

For the reasons you mentioned this is not an apples-to-apples comparison. Different layouts, suspension setups, weight...etc. so why would the alignments have to be similar? Anyone that has tracked an SS 1LE knows there isn't nearly enough front camber available to exploit available tire grip... aka corner speed. That is unless you either modify the struts or go to camber plates.

As for the validity of testing on the street... not very scientific and is not a good place to test for obvious safety reasons. I have hours of PDR data logs from multiple tracks to use for comparison purposes and to validate any changes made to my car. Which is much more reliable than you hitting an on/off ramp x number of times on the same day and declaring a victor.

By the way, was your corner speed testing done before you dropped ~$8K on after market dampers? I sure hope so but I understand the PASM dampers are not that great.