[shaffe]

Originally Posted by oldman

I was reading an article that stated Ford went with a superchager because the regular crank did not supply the twin turbo with a steady pulse. True as only a flat plane has even fire per bank (so much for equal length header theory eh?). Once they dropped the flat plane, they were forced to drop the twin turbo. I don't know how true that is, but yeah a regular V8 has very unequal pulse waves. Hence the Camaro has tri-y headers.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

There are plenty of twin-turbo CPC V8's out there (BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, etc.). In fact, most of them now are in a hot-v configuration with the turbos in the valley of the V, so they don't have room for equal length headers or anything like that. So nobody else seems to have any issue with twin turbos on a V8 engine with a CPC.

My guess is that Ford didn't want to admit that they have major issues with their FPC implimentation. They have moved on, and are looking to scapegoat some other reason, so that folks will still purchase the poopoo (oops, I mean voodoo) engine for a few more years.

There was a rumor I read that said the reason Ford didn't go turbos was packaging. There was something like if went with a traditional style TT set up (not hot V) it would fit but something about crash testing or something like that

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

You think the voodoo just requires a very close monitoring of oil levels and careful engine warmup before high rpm driving? I know that's unacceptable for most people, but I could see hardcore track rats living with it. Just wondering if this is a similar situation to Chevy not doing a good enough job of warning prospective buyers about the ZLE's ride quality (I love it ). Did Ford just drop the ball on educating dealers and owners on proper maintenance of the engine?

I think yes and no. It seems like a lot of problems with the Voodoo engine is related to keeping up with the engine's lubrication, but there are also quite a bit of seemingly vibration related issues that pop up - things like spun bearings, things off the FEAD that break or become loose and the early oil filters would vibrate loose.

From what I have read up, and read between the lines, Ford focused their FPC on creating the most broad power curve, highest power-density and maintaining a Mustang-type sound. If you start reading about the Voodoo's UDUD layout vs. the typical UDDU layout of Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren, and Porsche, the UDUD layout apparently has more vibration concerns related to it, but allows more flexibility in attaining better intake/exhaust manifold layouts, which the Mustang was said to have had as a restriction. I have a strong suspicion that the C8.R has a UDDU layout.

Originally Posted by shaffe

There was a rumor I read that said the reason Ford didn't go turbos was packaging. There was something like if went with a traditional style TT set up (not hot V) it would fit but something about crash testing or something like that

I heard this as well. I mean, Ford did do a 5.0L TT project about 4 years ago (right around when the 2013 GT500 came out) that made something like 700+HP easily.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/do...bro_101812.pdf
https://www.dragzine.com/features/se...a-jet-concept/

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I think yes and no. It seems like a lot of problems with the Voodoo engine is related to keeping up with the engine's lubrication, but there are also quite a bit of seemingly vibration related issues that pop up - things like spun bearings, things off the FEAD that break or become loose and the early oil filters would vibrate loose.

From what I have read up, and read between the lines, Ford focused their FPC on creating the most broad power curve, highest power-density and maintaining a Mustang-type sound. If you start reading about the Voodoo's UDUD layout vs. the typical UDDU layout of Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren, and Porsche, the UDUD layout apparently has more vibration concerns related to it, but allows more flexibility in attaining better intake/exhaust manifold layouts, which the Mustang was said to have had as a restriction. I have a strong suspicion that the C8.R has a UDDU layout.



I heard this as well. I mean, Ford did do a 5.0L TT project about 4 years ago (right around when the 2013 GT500 came out) that made something like 700+HP easily.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/do...bro_101812.pdf
https://www.dragzine.com/features/se...a-jet-concept/

Very interesting. Thanks.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

You think the voodoo just requires a very close monitoring of oil levels and careful engine warmup before high rpm driving? I know that's unacceptable for most people, but I could see hardcore track rats living with it. Just wondering if this is a similar situation to Chevy not doing a good enough job of warning prospective buyers about the ZLE's ride quality (I love it ). Did Ford just drop the ball on educating dealers and owners on proper maintenance of the engine?

There are some folks on that other site that promote the idea that the Voodoo is a race-type engine and checking your oil frequently just comes with that, so get used to it. They are implying that the engine was designed that way, and oil consumption is normal for that engine.

But, if that were the case, they ALL would be consuming a good amount of oil (some more than others, of course). But, most folks over there swear their engines use no oil at all. So, I can't see the oil consumption issue as anything other than a problem, not a design feature...

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by shaffe

There was a rumor I read that said the reason Ford didn't go turbos was packaging. There was something like if went with a traditional style TT set up (not hot V) it would fit but something about crash testing or something like that

I could understand a packaging issue, but I have no knowledge of that. I can not understand the argument that a CPC has uneven pulses, and therefore can't be used in a TT setup. There are plenty of CPC TT setups out there, so it is possible...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I could understand a packaging issue, but I have no knowledge of that. I can not understand the argument that a CPC has uneven pulses, and therefore can't be used in a TT setup. There are plenty of CPC TT setups out there, so it is possible...

Yeah I would believe the packaging issue.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I think yes and no. It seems like a lot of problems with the Voodoo engine is related to keeping up with the engine's lubrication, but there are also quite a bit of seemingly vibration related issues that pop up - things like spun bearings, things off the FEAD that break or become loose and the early oil filters would vibrate loose.

From what I have read up, and read between the lines, Ford focused their FPC on creating the most broad power curve, highest power-density and maintaining a Mustang-type sound. If you start reading about the Voodoo's UDUD layout vs. the typical UDDU layout of Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren, and Porsche, the UDUD layout apparently has more vibration concerns related to it, but allows more flexibility in attaining better intake/exhaust manifold layouts, which the Mustang was said to have had as a restriction. I have a strong suspicion that the C8.R has a UDDU layout.

I really haven't been able to find out why the Voodoo will begin to consume oil when it didn't to begin with. In fact, I'm not really sure where the oil is even going. Buring a quart every 1,000 mi. or so would show blue smoke in the exhaust, and if it were leaking, folks would find oil on thier engine or undercarrage somewhere. I suspect it's burning the oil because of my last point, but why no blue smoke, or fouled plugs? That's a lot of oil to just dissapear without a trace?

Perhaps one day we will find the root cause, but for now I can only guess.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I really haven't been able to find out why the Voodoo will begin to consume oil when it didn't to begin with. In fact, I'm not really sure where the oil is even going. Buring a quart every 1,000 mi. or so would show blue smoke in the exhaust, and if it were leaking, folks would find oil on thier engine or undercarrage somewhere. I suspect it's burning the oil because of my last point, but why no blue smoke, or fouled plugs? That's a lot of oil to just dissapear without a trace?

Perhaps one day we will find the root cause, but for now I can only guess.

It is a high-RPM engine. In order to provide the best compromise for a good combustion seal, low friction and long-term durability, I would imagine the piston rings have a larger than normal gap than the typical 5.0L Coyote engine that operate 7-7.5 RPM max. RPM=heat and RPM+large bore=more heat. There is likely a "normal" above expected oil consumption factor from that...

I'd be curious to see the rebuild specs between the 5.0L Coyote/Road Runner and the 5.2L Voodoo for piston ring gap. I know ring materials are a lot better today than 15 years ago, but when considering the factors I stated, it's believeable to me for a larger initial gap. One the other hand, it is evident that Ford had some quality issues with their plasma-bore sprays with the early Gen3 Coyote, so I'd think that it's very possible there may be that.

The blue smoke might be quelled by the catalytic converters? There is, also, a long series of piping going out to the back of the car. If, say, the engine is only burning oil at low-RPM, let's say under 3.5k, that would be a small window with a long, semi-torturous path.

I mean, have GT350 owners really observed their exhaust close enough to say, "Nope, there is definitely NO visible blue smoke, what-so-ever, coming from my tail pipe"?

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Mountain

It is a high-RPM engine. In order to provide the best compromise for a good combustion seal, low friction and long-term durability, I would imagine the piston rings have a larger than normal gap than the typical 5.0L Coyote engine that operate 7-7.5 RPM max. RPM=heat and RPM+large bore=more heat. There is likely a "normal" above expected oil consumption factor from that...

I'd be curious to see the rebuild specs between the 5.0L Coyote/Road Runner and the 5.2L Voodoo for piston ring gap. I know ring materials are a lot better today than 15 years ago, but when considering the factors I stated, it's believeable to me for a larger initial gap. One the other hand, it is evident that Ford had some quality issues with their plasma-bore sprays with the early Gen3 Coyote, so I'd think that it's very possible there may be that.

The blue smoke might be quelled by the catalytic converters? There is, also, a long series of piping going out to the back of the car. If, say, the engine is only burning oil at low-RPM, let's say under 3.5k, that would be a small window with a long, semi-torturous path.

I mean, have GT350 owners really observed their exhaust close enough to say, "Nope, there is definitely NO visible blue smoke, what-so-ever, coming from my tail pipe"?

There have been a few guys that have wiped their fingers in the exhaust tip and found no obvious signs of oil burning. I was wondering if the oil could be hiding in the exhaust system, but that's a LOT of oil, so I'm not sure. Of course, these cars are being fixed by the dealers, so the owners haven't had much chance to trace anything down yet.

My guess is the oil is burning, not leaking, but not sure of the root cause. Some indications were that the cylinders were not perfectly round, and there is one case where an owner already voided his warrenty (by going TT), and his engine had a large scratch on the cylinder wall. Now, he swears it wasn't the TT build, as it didn't have that many miles on it, but that is only one case, and it was modified, so...