[The_Blur]

I'm concerned posting this thread that it will become a political discussion. If it does, I'm closing it without warning. Do not discuss politics in here.

GM is in the process of negotiating a contract with the UAW for a valvetrain plant in Michigan. The news in this story has little to do with the plant, the UAW, or even GM. The issue is much bigger than GM, and that is why I put this in the general cars section.

Here's the problem. GM could have just shuttered the plant, laying off expensive workers in favor of cheaper ones elsewhere. In light of bankruptcy, the best course of action would have been just that. At the risk of repeating history, GM decided to keep hiring American because it was the right thing to do. Afterall, GM is an American company with its traditionally best market in the US, although the last 3 months have all see better performance in China. GM wanted to hire American, and GM is still going to work to hire American.

The problem isn't GM. The problem is that the workers won't accept the cuts of $3 per hour and other snags in the deal. Before I criticize these workers, I'll point out that I would gladly accept any pay remotely close to what those workers make right now. I have a deferred college loan, no car, and live with family while I work at a job that does not guarantee enough to change my situation. If I could be in their shoes, I would take it in a heartbeat.

However, I'm not in their shoes. They don't want to lose their $3 per hour. Normally, you expect to make more over time, and that is rational thinking. These workers have missed the point. GM has no interest in hiring expensive workers that will bring it back to ruin when the cheaper alternatives won't underperform and likely won't protest. GM is in a winning position here, and the union elected to challenge that position. It's a stupid challenge.

As a buyer, I'd like to buy American, but I don't want to employ these idiots. I want to take their places. They're living a dream that shouldn't even be a dream: a job that pays the bills. It's a dream to me and to so many other unemployed Americans, and they're throwing away a lot more than $3 per hour by voting against this contract. They're throwing away their entire paycheck and the culture that we buy American.

What should GM do?

Article is by Automotive News. Discuss carefully.

[vsound]

Very good post. I really think that, as Americans, we all got a bit too greedy. That's what helped cause the large housing market bubble.

Anyway, GM should simply make the cut. If employees leave, I think they should be replaced by other Americans.

Now, I'm no expert on what influence the employees still have, if any, since GM filed for bankruptcy. If the Union still holds any power, my idea is obviously no good.

But these are just my thoughts.

[SS 376]

It is larger than GM but a lot of the reason America is in the situation it is now is because millions of jobs have been shipped overseas over the past 30 years. Unions or not, even minimum wage here can't compete with [insert 3rd World Country] slave and quasi-slave labor. I don't think it helps that other countries don't reciprocate our free trade policies (looking at China here). I think to say it's a union thing obscures the real issue, which is what stance we should have when it comes to trading with other countries.

Let's see how long before this is locked.

[Number 3]

Good thread Blur.

I think this is far more than GM as you say. It is simply that we as Amercians demand the lowest prices at all costs. We may say that we care where a product is made, but end of the day, Walmart dominates retail sales for one reason, the cheapest price possible.

If Americans stood up and said, "we want American made products, we are willing to pay more for American made products, and we want to protect our own, and we don't care about making China, India, Mexico industrial giants", you'd be only a small part of the way there. Americans would have to vote with their wallets and make purchasing decisions that support this.

BUT and it's a big but, American labor would have to provide competitive to superior products for those higher prices.

[fielderLS3]

Cheaper workers elsewhere, like in Alabama. (Learn from Hyundai).

[Revo1]

Can't really say, as I'm not personally in their shoes... I can definitely relate to your situation BLUR, and would take up their mantles without a second thought, even with the rate cut.

Seems to me they just aren't seeing the bigger picture, and that once the money is there, I'm sure their pay rates will be restored- if not to their expected rate, at least to the original rate.

If GM has the integrity to hire American rather than cheap outside hands, then it would seem to me that all these fortunate employees have to do is bring 100% to their jobs every day, and help the company steady itself. Their money will come back to them eventually.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Revo1

Can't really say, as I'm not personally in their shoes... I can definitely relate to your situation BLUR, and would take up their mantles without a second thought, even with the rate cut.

Seems to me they just aren't seeing the bigger picture, and that once the money is there, I'm sure their pay rates will be restored- if not to their expected rate, at least to the original rate.

If GM has the integrity to hire American rather than cheap outside hands, then it would seem to me that all these fortunate employees have to do is bring 100% to their jobs every day, and help the company steady itself. Their money will come back to them eventually.

I have no doubt that the money will come back for the next set of negotiations if there are any, but the whole voting procedure smacked me in the face as a gargantuan problem. I can't vote on my pay. Since graduating from college, I've dwindled above minimum wage. I graduated from college in 2008. These guys are making substantially more with substantially less required education—in other words, at less personal expense and effort. How is it that the easy way out is the superior way out? Doesn't that take the work ethic out of the work?

If I were GM, I'd tell this factory to shut down. Maybe I'm a heartless sack of garbage for saying so. I'm also a crazily motivated worker who makes substantially less, so I know I'm sour on this. These workers should take a loss voluntarily or they will lose everything without a vote.

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

I have no doubt that the money will come back for the next set of negotiations if there are any, but the whole voting procedure smacked me in the face as a gargantuan problem. I can't vote on my pay. Since graduating from college, I've dwindled above minimum wage. I graduated from college in 2008. These guys are making substantially more with substantially less required education—in other words, at less personal expense and effort. How is it that the easy way out is the superior way out? Doesn't that take the work ethic out of the work?

If I were GM, I'd tell this factory to shut down. Maybe I'm a heartless sack of garbage for saying so. I'm also a crazily motivated worker who makes substantially less, so I know I'm sour on this. These workers should take a loss voluntarily or they will lose everything without a vote.

I feel the same way you do. I graduated college in December of 2008 and worked for slightly above minimum wage for a year. I finally got a regular job in my career field and doing better now, but still making well below the going rate of a UAW worker with limited skills. I am not trying to tear down the mostly good and hard working people on the assembly lines that are putting together our wonderful cars. They are just trying to make a living too.

But we have to face economic reality. The days when you could make $75 an hour with benefits for tightening lug nuts at the end of the line are over. GM's bankruptcy proved that was not sustainable. We are in recession, and unemployment is high. These UAW members need to realize that given their skill level, most probably couldn't make half of their current salary anywhere else in town right now since everyone else in town could (and for less would love to) do their job, so if I were in their position, I'd be more careful about making demands that might GM say "it's not worth dealing with all this anymore" and go elsewhere.

Sorry for the rant, but come-on people. Have a little common sense. Put your situation into perspective.

[Axe]

Along those same lines, the days when somebody gets paid $100k/yr to sit behind a desk (because they have a degree in "business management") and say "Work faster guys" SHOULD be over as well. Im a techinician for a utility company, easily make at least 90k/yr, and never spent a day of my life in college - nor do I think people who did are the least bit better than me.

While a $240/wk loss is gonna hurt, I will agree right now they have to see the big picture and take the hit.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

If I were GM, I'd tell this factory to shut down. Maybe I'm a heartless sack of garbage for saying so. I'm also a crazily motivated worker who makes substantially less, so I know I'm sour on this. These workers should take a loss voluntarily or they will lose everything without a vote.

I am surprised at your attitude towards this, though I understand where you're coming from...

Originally Posted by Number 3

Good thread Blur.

I think this is far more than GM as you say. It is simply that we as Amercians demand the lowest prices at all costs. We may say that we care where a product is made, but end of the day, Walmart dominates retail sales for one reason, the cheapest price possible.

If Americans stood up and said, "we want American made products, we are willing to pay more for American made products, and we want to protect our own, and we don't care about making China, India, Mexico industrial giants", you'd be only a small part of the way there. Americans would have to vote with their wallets and make purchasing decisions that support this.

BUT and it's a big but, American labor would have to provide competitive to superior products for those higher prices.

The 'problem' per say, is not our workers and laborers (though that's a situation that needs to be addressed)...but rather our consumers desire to save a buck at all costs. Nothing has higher value than the dollar in this country. It's allowed foreign manufacturers take hold, and it's the reason we've sent so many jobs overseas in the first place. :(

[305pride]

shit, let me go work for gm.

[rmnc3r]

Money and Power: Union Bosses and Negotiators want their flock to to earn more so they can be fleeced more - "of course dues are higher, look how much more we got you per hour" (not to mention benefits). The average worker, albeit honest and hard working, is easily fooled and not prone to see the 'bigger picture', I think.
Sorry, but (Union) Politics is part and parcel of the dilemma.

[dbotsfordtat]

Originally Posted by Axe

Along those same lines, the days when somebody gets paid $100k/yr to sit behind a desk (because they have a degree in "business management") and say "Work faster guys" SHOULD be over as well. Im a techinician for a utility company, easily make at least 90k/yr, and never spent a day of my life in college - nor do I think people who did are the least bit better than me.

While a $240/wk loss is gonna hurt, I will agree right now they have to see the big picture and take the hit.

Amen. I don't even have a H.S. diploma and I make a bit over six figures annually. The only people still pushing college are those that work in education and those that don't understand NAFTA and CAFTA.

Its morning in America and if your job is capable of being shipped overseas or done by illegal aliens you better be willing to work cheap. Most of the college educated folks in our country work on Wall Street now defrauding investors.

My advice is learn a skill and stop picking on the working class in our country.

[JoeP@TeamBeckyD]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I am surprised at your attitude towards this, though I understand where you're coming from...


The 'problem' per say, is not our workers and laborers (though that's a situation that needs to be addressed)...but rather our consumers desire to save a buck at all costs. Nothing has higher value than the dollar in this country. It's allowed foreign manufacturers take hold, and it's the reason we've sent so many jobs overseas in the first place. :(

Walmart is the poster child for whats wrong with America. We need to find a way to buy American everywhere we can.