[Norm Peterson]

This ↑↑↑

It's not like the ZL1 comes equipped with off-brand all-season tires (Mastercrafts, anybody?).

If anything, maybe wait until past when you're absolutely sure that it's the tires holding you back instead of it being the other way around.


Norm

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Something that crossed my mind today:

Unless you can push the car to its limit, cross it and recover comfortably - learning how to feel the car, sense the limits and drive at, or very close to the limits: should be an absolute priority.

If you still need seat time to achieve the above, then the learning process will be much easier (and faster) on stock tires, which are rather progressive, offering fairly friendly slip angles. They are also very fast!

Stickier tires will offer higher G forces and hence more pace, but narrower slip angles requiring much more skill to drive them on the limit, as feedback will be much more abrupt and less forgiving, when they exceed grip levels.
At the same time, speeds will be higher, requiring even faster corrections. NOT a good combo for a learning environment imo.

Kinda like aspiring jet figher pilots dont start learning the craft on top level equipment, but rather start on turbo prop trainers. Too many examples here to justify that proper learning progression yields best results vs diving off the deep end prematurely.

I have seen many examples of folks capable of pushing their cars on street track tires being much faster than tentative drivers on slicks. The latter wont deliver automatic pace increase unless one has a skill to push them.

If a track hobby is a fairly new thing here and so is the car (which is a monster!), id use up a good few sets of stock tires before mounting anything more aggressive on. Stock G3s are one of the best in the biz in their category, which by design is track vs street focused. So you won't be disappointed for sure.

Food for thought

This is really good advice...

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Contact http://gttrackdays.com for sizes and pricing. Those guys seem very popular and are quick to respond etc. They also have 1st hand experience as they track their cars.

Pirelli DH (dry, hard) compound seems most favoured as it is fast yet durable. Those guys have a good reputation albeit sometimes you can get a dud as part of shippment. The issue is they dont deliver to Canada. But if you are close to the border: that solves it logistics wise if you can pick it up at the US address. It helps if you had an opp to buy a few sets at once and have some in reserve when needed.

You could also try new Hoosiers and see how they last (vs G3R).

Note neither choice is street legal and absolutely suicidal in wet conditions. So you'll either have to carry a set of rims inside your car, or trailer your beast.

Cheers!

Just checked out that site, looks like they have some good deals! Thanks, I'll keep that in my notes for the coming years.

I re checked my notes and realized I actually didn't find a lot of into on how well the Hoosier R7's compared to the SC3R's in terms of durability/wear or grip/performance

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

This ↑↑↑

It's not like the ZL1 comes equipped with off-brand all-season tires (Mastercrafts, anybody?).

If anything, maybe wait until past when you're absolutely sure that it's the tires holding you back instead of it being the other way around.


Norm

Totally agree, that's the plan.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Something that crossed my mind today:

Unless you can push the car to its limit, cross it and recover comfortably - learning how to feel the car, sense the limits and drive at, or very close to the limits: should be an absolute priority.

If you still need seat time to achieve the above, then the learning process will be much easier (and faster) on stock tires, which are rather progressive, offering fairly friendly slip angles. They are also very fast!

Stickier tires will offer higher G forces and hence more pace, but narrower slip angles requiring much more skill to drive them on the limit, as feedback will be much more abrupt and less forgiving, when they exceed grip levels.
At the same time, speeds will be higher, requiring even faster corrections. NOT a good combo for a learning environment imo.

Kinda like aspiring jet figher pilots dont start learning the craft on top level equipment, but rather start on turbo prop trainers. Too many examples here to justify that proper learning progression yields best results vs diving off the deep end prematurely.

I have seen many examples of folks capable of pushing their cars on street track tires being much faster than tentative drivers on slicks. The latter wont deliver automatic pace increase unless one has a skill to push them.

If a track hobby is a fairly new thing here and so is the car (which is a monster!), id use up a good few sets of stock tires before mounting anything more aggressive on. Stock G3s are one of the best in the biz in their category, which by design is track vs street focused. So you won't be disappointed for sure.

Food for thought

I didn't realize that stickier tires were actually harder to learn on, that's really good to know, I thought they were just a waste of money until one could properly and fully utilize them, I appreciate that valuable insight!

[NickyRacerBoy]

EXCELLENT POST TRACK CLUB!

Bottom line is safety mods first and then lots of seat time. Along with seat time, tires and brakes should be the only mods on your mind.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by NickyRacerBoy

EXCELLENT POST TRACK CLUB!

Bottom line is safety mods first and then lots of seat time. Along with seat time, tires and brakes should be the only mods on your mind.

Thank you Nicky Bobby - appreciate your kind words!

[94boosted]

One other thing to consider when running slicks vs a 240TW street tire (GY SC3) is the other setup changes that will also be required to get the most out of them:

- Brake pads and fluid, stock pads are arguably ok for the stock tires, once you go to a slick you'll definitely need something with a higher temp window
- Alignment settings, you'll probably want more neg camber (camber plates)
- Different tire pressures than stock (need a tire pyro and time to get them sorted)

[Provoste]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Something that crossed my mind today:

Unless you can push the car to its limit, cross it and recover comfortably - learning how to feel the car, sense the limits and drive at, or very close to the limits: should be an absolute priority.

If you still need seat time to achieve the above, then the learning process will be much easier (and faster) on stock tires, which are rather progressive, offering fairly friendly slip angles. They are also very fast!

Stickier tires will offer higher G forces and hence more pace, but narrower slip angles requiring much more skill to drive them on the limit, as feedback will be much more abrupt and less forgiving, when they exceed grip levels.
At the same time, speeds will be higher, requiring even faster corrections. NOT a good combo for a learning environment imo.

Kinda like aspiring jet figher pilots dont start learning the craft on top level equipment, but rather start on turbo prop trainers. Too many examples here to justify that proper learning progression yields best results vs diving off the deep end prematurely.

I have seen many examples of folks capable of pushing their cars on street track tires being much faster than tentative drivers on slicks. The latter wont deliver automatic pace increase unless one has a skill to push them.

If a track hobby is a fairly new thing here and so is the car (which is a monster!), id use up a good few sets of stock tires before mounting anything more aggressive on. Stock G3s are one of the best in the biz in their category, which by design is track vs street focused. So you won't be disappointed for sure.

Food for thought

Bingo. I had a similar conversation with my student at Barber last month. My student and his friends were all driving C7 Z06's in the intermediate group with Chin. My student was on the OE Pilot Super Sports, and 2 of his friends were on Pirelli slicks.

I was lapping 2-3 seconds a lap faster in the SS 1LE on 200 tread street tires than his C7Z buddies on slicks. I think that data point convinced him to keep his car stock for now, plenty to learn still.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Provoste

Bingo. I had a similar conversation with my student at Barber last month. My student and his friends were all driving C7 Z06's in the intermediate group with Chin. My student was on the OE Pilot Super Sports, and 2 of his friends were on Pirelli slicks.

I was lapping 2-3 seconds a lap faster in the SS 1LE on 200 tread street tires than his C7Z buddies on slicks. I think that data point convinced him to keep his car stock for now, plenty to learn still.

Nothing demonstrates this very point as well as a real life example. Thanks Provoste

OP: I posted another response last night, but later decided to delete it, as i had started repeating myself (perhaps old age lol?).

Bottom line, it is clear from your responses that you get the jist of the matter and then some! It is always a pleasure to converse with other open minds - so to this end - thank you!

Cheers!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

1. A highly skilled driver who is able (by feel) to identify what the car needs to do better and in what corner phase when AT THE LIMIT (tuning for what the car feels like below the limit is completely pointless).

2. A highly skilled crew chief character then needs to translate that feedback to actual changes required to the set up. Keep in mind some changes may improve a certain corner phase but degrade another as a result.
And indeed even pro crew chiefs dont always get it right.
Suspension set up is an art, starting with proper driver feedback. If the latter is suspect, or incorrect, changing set up ends up in battling proverbial wind mills.

It certainly helps to have a thorough understanding of suspension tuning, but really, anyone can figure it out and be pretty close to optimal. Whenever I get asked about it I tell people to go change settings to the extremes, one setting at a time, and go do a couple laps. The changes are obvious in any quality set of dampers. From there you have a basic understanding on what each adjustment will do and then you have to start working towards that optimal. It usually takes me 2 sessions to get very close to that but you have to be dedicated to trying something for a few laps, pulling in, making an adjustment, going back out, etc. MRC is certainly an "easy button".

However, I would not at all be surprised if those JRi dampers, when setup, are worth 1-3 seconds a lap consistently at Sebring over MRC.

I'll be having to enjoy this process with the rebuilt BRZ which is running some 2 way dampers later this month.. but once setup it'll be good until other changes are made.. Even when switching tracks I generally don't bother to retune it since it's just a DE car and I don't want to spend sessions gaining a few tenths.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

G3Rs will up the pace substantially as from all accounts they seem a fast tire. But from what i have read they dont last long. And i have no idea how much they cost.
It may be a good idea to check tire threads here and see what ZL1 1LE guys run. If you can get Pirelli DH scrubs that would be my #1 choice (price vs pace vs longevity), but that would likely call for 18 inch rims.

So my suggestion would be a bit more tire specific r+d before you pull the trigger. PM Provoste and Seanblurr for their perspectives. Both track ZL1 1LEs and both are very fast (and nice guys to boot ).

Best of luck!

They need more front camber unless you want to DESTROY the fronts in ~1-2 days from what I've seen. This makes sense as they should want more camber than the SC3's and at -2.6 front I still don't have enough camber for those.. I bet the SC3R's likely want -3.5 or so..

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

I didn't realize that stickier tires were actually harder to learn on, that's really good to know, I thought they were just a waste of money until one could properly and fully utilize them, I appreciate that valuable insight!

They are. They cover up mistakes and, as TrackClub said, make recovery harder as you have to pass much higher limits to get there.

At events I help run we won't allow novice or intermediate students to run R comps (or anything higher end of course like FIA slicks) for this very reason.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

It certainly helps to have a thorough understanding of suspension tuning, but really, anyone can figure it out and be pretty close to optimal. Whenever I get asked about it I tell people to go change settings to the extremes, one setting at a time, and go do a couple laps. The changes are obvious in any quality set of dampers. From there you have a basic understanding on what each adjustment will do and then you have to start working towards that optimal. It usually takes me 2 sessions to get very close to that but you have to be dedicated to trying something for a few laps, pulling in, making an adjustment, going back out, etc. MRC is certainly an "easy button".

However, I would not at all be surprised if those JRi dampers, when setup, are worth 1-3 seconds a lap consistently at Sebring over MRC.

I'll be having to enjoy this process with the rebuilt BRZ which is running some 2 way dampers later this month.. but once setup it'll be good until other changes are made.. Even when switching tracks I generally don't bother to retune it since it's just a DE car and I don't want to spend sessions gaining a few tenths.

I gotta disagree with ya. Indeed, "anybody" can frig with settings and spend inordinate amounts of time in the paddock vs enjoying themselves out on track. Seen it many times. Or change settings to mask insufficient skill especially on corner entries. Etc.

Shock setting is a complex art, one that requires high degree of driving skill to define what the car is doing well vs not in each phase of a corner, moreover differentiated into slow and fast corners. If a driver cant tell this, then any set up change is just a game of guessing. Moreover, one needs to understand what will actually happen when changing bump or rebound rates at each car's corner vs just turning knobs and hoping for the better not undrerstanding causes and effects.

Trying extremes and then - likely - landing on a happy medium, will - likely - brings one back to a good factory setting, more or less. So what's the point?

With 2 way adjustable shocks one already has several possible permutations of settings available. Add adjustable sways to the equation and the number of choices jumps up. Add multi adjustable shocks and the picture really gets complex.

Pro crew chiefs have written books on this subject and for a very good reason. Lastly, buying an adjustable suspension and leaving it static regardless of track venue, conditions and other variables is pointless imo.
Thats exactly the same end result as having a fixed suspension.

As far as camber, Provoste runs scrubs and i dont think his camber is overly excessive. My memory tells me it is less than 3F but i may be incorrect here. I ran slicks with 2.6F on my Vette with zero issues. But thats a different platform obviously and it also depends on width of tires.

Isnt it fun being an arm chair expert? Lol! Cant wait for the spring! Best of luck with your new project. It is clear that you are knowledgeable and capable - so enjoy it and have fun with a new toy!
All the best!