[BlaqWhole]

Show up, make a few posts, people already mad at me...I still got it. LOL!! Don't mind me tho. I don't have much time for back and forth anymore. I was just dropping in to add to the discussion. I'll swing back around soon. Got a big weekend planned on the motorcycles starting...now, lol!! Going for a midnight ride. See you guys around.

[oldman]

I have a built sleeved B20 VTEC in my Integra Type R.. about 275 HP NA at 9000 RPM car weighs in at about 2500 lbs with A/C.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

WTF is up with all the hostility and animosity here? Did I miss something while I been gone? Is something amiss? I wasn't even challenging you bro. I was just freakin asking for the links so I could see what info you were referring to and to know which tests you were comparing. And so OP can have the info he is looking for. You guys need to calm down a bit. Geez.

Take it easy man, no hostility here.. I even put an emoji and "lol"... Blaq come on man, you tougher than this lol

[oldman]

The concept is called toss-ability, been around since I was a boy, some cars are more tossable. My Integra Type R was tossable day one with OEM tires, my Omni GLH-S was tossable day one with OEM tires. My two Challengers sucked and only became marginal with lots of tire and suspension work both were supercharged one a V6, one a V8. Their lateral grip and transient response got way better but bulk was never really undercontrol. The 3800 lbs (v6) with suspension was actually kind of fun but when you been in a built Type R for 20 something years it gets hard to get use to such mass.

The Miata while tossable just does NOT have the HP to get my blood flowing. Maybe with the supercharger I'd be thinking maybe, but then the Supra 4 banger is out I'd probably just get that. My NA SS with PS4 FBO was very tossable, would luv the 1LE. I knew that if I got into the suspension I would toss off the magnaride anyway plus the 1LE was not out in late 2015 very eary 2016 time frame. I don't know how much more real world street driving the eLSD adds. I just know my 3600 lbs 1SS M6 is a very tossable car... brings a shiznett face grin and the factory dynamic balance is very good. One day I'll do suspension, at my age don't know if I'll do DSSV (factory ones are too stiff IMO). I could see a linear single adjust koni and 1LE springs and sways.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=436603

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Redlinez

All the 1LE needs is basic bolt ons and a tune to really wake it up. An extra 50-60 rwhp and torque makes a huge difference.

I would also say a 1SS with FBO, and 1LE equivalent suspension and tires would also make a really great street GT performance ahem sports car. The chassis is just that good.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Agreed, many factors like feel and preferances outside of performance certainly factor into some people's purchases. Same reason people were willing to pay more for a slightly slower gt350 (also around a track) when the ss 1le came out in 2017

Yep I would say for most people all out performance/stats isn't the end all be all. Look at the amount of people that will choose a stick over an auto and not care that the auto is faster.

I think that kind of thought process goes into any hobby.


I know its not apples to apples but when I go to the range my .44 puts the biggest smile on my face despite the fact its heavy, I am inaccurate with it, it's expensive to feed

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yep I would say for most people all out performance/stats isn't the end all be all. Look at the amount of people that will choose a stick over an auto and not care that the auto is faster.

I think that kind of thought process goes into any hobby.


I know its not apples to apples but when I go to the range my .44 puts the biggest smile on my face despite the fact its heavy, I am inaccurate with it, it's expensive to feed

That's a pretty good comparison actually. Some of my favorites to shoot are by no means my actual easy to use shtf guns.

And yea on the stick vs auto debate, shoot that's damn near sacred right there. I know there's a lot of back and forth here between the Chevy Ford and mopar boys, but I'll always stand with my stick gm, Ford, and mopar guys vs any preferred brand of automatics lol. Plus honestly most people roll race now days and the sticks can hang pretty decently there and you don't have to worry about trans tuning and crap when you mod. Just make sure you do your part.

[zx9rmal]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Plus honestly most people roll race now days and the sticks can hang pretty decently there and you don't have to worry about trans tuning and crap when you mod. Just make sure you do your part.

And with skilled NLS shifting, it's just as quick shifting as an auto, IMHO.

[oldman]

put my near stock M6 into the sub 4.0 and there were guys saying I was driving on jackstands. NLS was the reason and a whole lot of practice. I'm on my 4th set of tires in 18K miles and I don't burn out.

[Bosse'sBoss]

The only time that the Camaro won MT's Best driver's cars was on 2014 with the N.A. Camaro Z28, it wasn't the ZL1 that won 1st. place.


And on 2016 on MT Best driver's car, the newest 6th gen "Alpha" chassis Camaro SS1LE (on Summer street tires) secured 4th. place and beated all records set by the 5th gen Z28 on its track cup tires and the ones from the 5th gen ZL1.


From MT:

"The 2017 SS 1LE you see here, all $45,700 of it, just back-handed both of those specialized $60k-$75k Camaros. Thwack! Check this out: 0-60 in 4.0 seconds and the quarter mile in 12.4 (so close), yet 60-0 in just 94 feet (a new Camaro record), 1.09 g of lateral acceleration (record), a 23.3-second figure eight (record), and a 1:37.77 lap time (record). All that on a 200-treadwear Goodyear street tire. And this is only the beginning of the sixth-gen Camaro's iterations"

[zx9rmal]

Originally Posted by Bosse'sBoss

And on 2016 on MT Best driver's car, the newest 6th gen "Alpha" chassis Camaro SS1LE (on Summer street tires) secured 4th. place and beated all records set by the 5th gen Z28 on its track cup tires and the ones from the 5th gen ZL1.

Not to mention the list of cars it beat in that test.

[Bosse'sBoss]

• Originally Posted by zx9rmal

  Not to mention the list of cars it beat in that test.

Per MT, the Camaro SS1LE (on 4th place) was a better driver's car (not necessarily the fastest) compared to:

• Viper ACR
• Mercedes AMG GTS
• Audi R8 V10 Plus
• Acura NSX
• Jaguar F Type SVR
• Nissan GTR
• BMW M4 GTS
• Aston Martin V12 Vantage S

[TheRealJA105]

GUYS, MR. WHOLE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN PHYSICS AND YOU CAN'T WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH HIM WHEN HE LIVES IN HIS IMAGINARY LAND WITHOUT PHYSICS

Originally Posted by joe944

No matter what components you change, physics cannot be overcome.

Adding weight to the front reduces handling, therefore the SLE is superior. This is why we see very similar lap times for the ZL1 and SLE on tight technical tracks.

Blaq, honestly your input doesn't belong in this thread because you don't know anything about road course racing.

YES 100% THIS

Originally Posted by JROC

A SS 1LE is basically a ZL1 with a different look and an LT1 instead of an LT4. The brakes are slightly different as is I believe the front springs rate, but this is because GM is compensating/trying to offset as best they can for an extra 200 lbs on the front of the car with the blower and the cooling systems required for it. Same MRC, swaybar setup, (I'm 95% sure they use the same anti-swaybars) same eLSD equipped rearend, and the SS 1LE even uses the ZL1 fuel pump. The SS 1LE and ZL1 share much of the same components so in many ways a SS 1LE is more similar to a ZL1 than a non-1LE SS.

Generally speaking your lighter, N/A cars are your more track focused cars that prioritize handling over all else. Like was already said cars like a 911 GT2 vs GT3, or C7 GS vs Z06, or C6 Z06 Z07 vs C6 ZR1, or GEN5 ZL1 vs Z/28. The N/A car is generally preferred by track and handling enthusiasts even if they're ultimately less capable due to the HP gap. And yes this is intended and claimed by the manufacturers as well. It's because of their balance and manageability. (Also cooling issues are far less likely with N/A cars) You can push them a lot harder without getting into trouble. Trying to muscle a car that will spin it's tires at 75 MPH or in 3rd gear thru turns takes a lot more skill and disciple.

Also none of these N/A cars are slow under acceleration. They're all potential 11 second cars in stock form. C6Z's (and maybe 911 GT3's) have even ran in the 10's bone stock. Now breaking into the 11's with a stock SS 1LE may be a hero run, but for a good driver, on a good surface, in ideal conditions the potential is there. Kind of like a LS1 GEN4 car is a potential 12 second car bone stock, a GEN6 with an LT1 is a potential 11 second car bone stock. My point being that while of course a ZL1 with an extra 195 BHP is a faster car, even a basic LT1/SS is a fairly fast car. (At the very least they make strong power and are quick) People like to act like they're slow and I don't agree. That's not me saying not to mod more power out of them as there's a lot of potential left in them from the factory, I'm just saying that they're pretty strong even stock.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

LOL, well that was a personal jab. Not that I care what you think.

You obviously are confused or lack comprehension. So let me rephrase it in a way that would be easy for someone like yourself to understand.

If both cars (ZL1 and SLE) had the same suspension and chassis components and stiffness, then yes, regardless of HP and regardless of which car can get around a track faster, the lighter car, or the car without the extra weight on the front, would handle better. Are you following along soo far? Don't wanna lose you.

Now here is where it gets tricky. Stay with me now bud. I said twice in this thread that the SLE and ZL1 DO NOT have the same suspension components. Therefore it is possible that the extra weight on the front of the ZL1 could be neutralized if it has a better suspension and better balance than the SLE. How much better? How much weight? How much balance? Well the only way to know would be to have objective data to show which car actually handles better. Or to measure the Gs. We do not have that data. Therefore all you're doing is speculating that the SLE has to handle better simply because the ZL1 has more weight which is a pretty silly way to look at it since you have no other info.

Oh yeah he never cares what you think when you prove him wrong either.

Originally Posted by Nothing like an SS

Well, I could afford both and I easily chose an SS 1LE, so there is that. Be careful of blanket statements regarding what other people think and would do.
I drove both and preferred the SS 1LE, simple as that.
Sorry, but your opinion and speculation do not = FACT.

Don't try and tell him you have as much money as he does. FYI he has all of the money!

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

The slight suspension changes are to make up for an inherit disadvantage of zl1's extra weight in the nose. Why you think that may be totally neutralized by the slight changes to spring rate giving the zl1 better suspension and balance, I don't get.

We do have some data on the matter as far as lateral G's go. According to Motortrend the best ss 1le's average skip pad G's are 1.12 vs the zl1's 1.08 (m6) 1.07 (a10). According to C&D the ss 1le pulled 1.11g average on the skip pad to the zl1's 1.07 (m6) 1.04 (a10).

For reference the zl1 1le is capable of as high as 1.17/1.18 later G's.

We also braking data favoring the ss 1le. Braking from 60 to 0 (93 to 97ft) and 70 to 0 (140 to 141ft) in a shorter distance than the zl1 according to both publishers. As well as far less powerful ss 1le putting up a faster figure 8 time than the zl1.

So going off of that we can assume that out of the two cars with nearly identical suspension, the lighter one is the better handling car. It's just physics.

No one is saying that the ss 1le is a better or faster car, ultimately that's subjective to the users needs and most would probably agree that the higher tier zl1 is the better overall car. However as far as just handling and balance go it's just not.

Atta boy Robby!

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Show up, make a few posts, people already mad at me...I still got it. LOL!! Don't mind me tho. I don't have much time for back and forth anymore. I was just dropping in to add to the discussion. I'll swing back around soon. Got a big weekend planned on the motorcycles starting...now, lol!! Going for a midnight ride. See you guys around.

Cool story bro

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

Atta boy Robby!

Gotta call em' like you see em'

Spitting facts lol