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Old 09-28-2020, 12:38 PM   #99
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Ran the Ferodo DS1.11 at NCM for SCCA TT Nats: GREAT track pad! Zero issues. Very good feel. Great modulation. They took whatever the track/I could throw at them. Don't push crazy heat into the brake system (i.e. I saw another guys SS 1LE turn his bright red calipers into dark red calipers, running G-Locks; my calipers are still bright red).

I bought temp strips to monitor caliper temps, but completely forgot to bring them with me.

I actually even drove 8-hours home on them. I wouldn't use them on the street much, but they do just fine to get back home.

Was also running Ferodo SF fluid: I like it better than Motul - I don't think I'll go back to Motul on the Camaro; it seems to not be as low compressibility as SRF and the Ferodo fluid based on my foot feel. From memory, the StopTech fluid seemed to feel better even. The Ferodo fluid is actually one that NCM stocks at their Holly shop (maybe that means something, maybe it doesn't, but the product in there seemed to have a high focus on tracking Corvettes).
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Old 07-07-2023, 07:43 AM   #100
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I have had issues with overheating and and fading with my current set of pads, GLOC R16 / R12.

My home track is Mosport where I run the GP and DDT for those familiar. I want to be able to brake hard into 5 and 8 all day without worrying if the brakes will be there.

Reading through this, I think I was sold on a much too aggressive friction compound, probably with the intention of reducing stopping distance but at the cost of way more heat.

In other cars changing from stock pads was mandatory but it sounds like I should give the stock SS1LE pads a go or the DS1.11.

I have the original rotors tucked away with very low mileage. Is it ok to use the DS1.11 on a rotor that was street driven with the OEM pad?
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Old 07-07-2023, 09:09 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Canyonero View Post
I have had issues with overheating and and fading with my current set of pads, GLOC R16 / R12.

My home track is Mosport where I run the GP and DDT for those familiar. I want to be able to brake hard into 5 and 8 all day without worrying if the brakes will be there.

Reading through this, I think I was sold on a much too aggressive friction compound, probably with the intention of reducing stopping distance but at the cost of way more heat.

In other cars changing from stock pads was mandatory but it sounds like I should give the stock SS1LE pads a go or the DS1.11.

I have the original rotors tucked away with very low mileage. Is it ok to use the DS1.11 on a rotor that was street driven with the OEM pad?
Absolutely fine! Dont know if you know Krispy, but here is his latest OTA track record at Mosport for some motivation
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Old 07-07-2023, 09:23 AM   #102
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Absolutely fine! Dont know if you know Krispy, but here is his latest OTA track record at Mosport for some motivation
Good to know. That will save a bit of money. I understand some pads can't be switched on the same rotor because of material left behind.

And yes, I saw Krispy's lap on the best times list! Six seconds faster than my best so there's definitely a lot of room for improvement. Maybe we'll start a fix my driving thread

I'll be at GP on Monday. Hope to see more Chevys!
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Old 07-07-2023, 09:55 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Canyonero View Post
I have had issues with overheating and and fading with my current set of pads, GLOC R16 / R12.

My home track is Mosport where I run the GP and DDT for those familiar. I want to be able to brake hard into 5 and 8 all day without worrying if the brakes will be there.

Reading through this, I think I was sold on a much too aggressive friction compound, probably with the intention of reducing stopping distance but at the cost of way more heat.

In other cars changing from stock pads was mandatory but it sounds like I should give the stock SS1LE pads a go or the DS1.11.

I have the original rotors tucked away with very low mileage. Is it ok to use the DS1.11 on a rotor that was street driven with the OEM pad?
You can switch back and forth between Ferodo pads without issue, I use 3.12 and OEM (HP1000). I was told OEM pads would have a very short life as operating temps would be exceeded, so I save them for street and autox. 3.12 have been great, takes a few stops to warm up but they seem to warm up at about the same rate as the OEM SC3 tires, no issues driving on the street to/from the track either.

I'm not sure a more aggressive pad will generate more heat, a certain amount of energy is required to slow the car and that is turned into heat by the brakes. Pad compound may make some difference but there's no getting around this basic kinetic energy > heat conversion. I'd check to make sure the ducting and scoop on the control arms are all in place and working properly, fresh fluid, etc. first. It's also really easy to install CT5V control arm scoops, I just did on my car, but apparently they are hard to get, order and wait... They are 2-3x the size of stock SS 1LE scoops.
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Old 07-07-2023, 10:11 AM   #104
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OK well I would suggest that you could use HAWK DTC-60 Pads on the REAR for BOTH daily driving and for track use (that's what I do). They DO dust more than the stock brembos for sure.

On the FRONT you COULD use a FERODO 2500 PADS for both track and daily driving. I actually tried that once and the braking was acceptable on the track but NOT at the LEVEL I was used to using a track dedicated pad.

I currently CHANGE out the FRONT pads to FERODO 3.12 compound when I TRACK the car and I use FERODO 2500 pads on the street on the FRONT.
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Old 07-07-2023, 10:44 AM   #105
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Ducts and control arm scoop are in place. The more I learn about pad compounds, the less I understand! I would have thought more aggressive bite would mean faster heat buildup.

I want to re-use the stock rotors since they have < 5k street miles... hence looking at Ferodo but wow the Hawks are much cheaper.

Where is everyone ordering Ferodo pads from? I had customs issues with the obvious choice in the past.
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Old 07-07-2023, 11:04 AM   #106
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Good to know. That will save a bit of money. I understand some pads can't be switched on the same rotor because of material left behind.

And yes, I saw Krispy's lap on the best times list! Six seconds faster than my best so there's definitely a lot of room for improvement. Maybe we'll start a fix my driving thread

I'll be at GP on Monday. Hope to see more Chevys!
I never had any issues trying different compounds on same rotors for track duty: heat cleans them up nicely.

Do not split pad torque F vs R as the car's braking system and handling balance is designed for the same pad all around. If you put a higher torque in F they will do more work and heat up faster plus the car balance will be affected towards understeer, which is not desirable. Some super fast guys here (Krispy, Eric etc) use the same pad all around. Stock pad is very capable and runs fairly cool.

High torque pads absolutely produce more heat, especially on tracks with short straights incapable of sufficiently cooling them (DDT, TMP, etc). Been there done it and had 4 wheels smoking and almost carching fire. Not recommended 😀

Chris still runs stocker pads btw, albeit for super fast laps he runs DTC60s. Eric did the same. However, do not look for higher torque pads to shave seconds off your lap. They can help achieve a small gain when one fights for 10ths but not seconds.

Especially at Mosport, momentum is king and braking is not a high priority to fast laps. Maximizing high average speed in very long corners like 2, 4 and 8 plus to some extent 1 as well (many folks way overslow entry speed there) will gain you the most time. Plus focus on good exit off of 3 and 5 and good flow in the esses.

Corners to pay attention to:

2 - ensure you're under maintenance throttle all the time while cornering down hill to keep the balance stable. If you lift there you will meet the left concrete wall head on.

3 - some folks lose rear on exit here, especially when going wide on exit and touching grass. Then then meet the right wall head on.

4 - do not break for this corner, only a slight lift then power before apex to keep the rear stable and car balanced.

9 - surprisingly, most folks come off here! The key is not to pinch the exit off of this corner, as if you do and the rears lose it the consequences are always severe. The key is to allow the car to drift to mid track or so on exit vs keeping it tight.

It is all about ability to FEEL what the car is doing balance wise. If you're not at that stage yet, take small bites and do not push too hard.

Have fun! Cheers
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Old 07-07-2023, 11:41 AM   #107
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High torque pads absolutely produce more heat, especially on tracks with short straights incapable of sufficiently cooling them (DDT, TMP, etc). Been there done it and had 4 wheels smoking and almost carching fire. Not recommended 😀
I've looking into this before choosing Ferodo 3.12 over 1.11, and I don't think this is true. I have no doubt what you experienced actually happened, but this is a very straightforward conversion of kinetic energy to heat that isn't going to vary all that much as far as the total quantity of heat generated. There could be other reasons your brake temps got so hot.

If this was the case nobody would use higher-mu pads, and lower-mu pads would be a solution to overheating brakes, but they are not.
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Old 07-07-2023, 11:48 AM   #108
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...If this was the case nobody would use higher-mu pads, and lower-mu pads would be a solution to overheating brakes, but they are not.



There you go thinking again.


Agree


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Old 07-07-2023, 12:22 PM   #109
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I've looking into this before choosing Ferodo 3.12 over 1.11, and I don't think this is true. I have no doubt what you experienced actually happened, but this is a very straightforward conversion of kinetic energy to heat that isn't going to vary all that much as far as the total quantity of heat generated. There could be other reasons your brake temps got so hot.

If this was the case nobody would use higher-mu pads, and lower-mu pads would be a solution to overheating brakes, but they are not.
One can certainly fade a lower mu pad, but that's not to be confused with overheating the braking system. The most reliable sign of heat difference between lower and higher mu pads is calipers: such as Brembos becoming Brownbos and needing cooling solutions and more frequent rebuilds. Ask any pro crew chief Another consideration, which any racing brake website will mention up front: pad mu should be matched properly to tire type. There is no good reason to put higher mu pad with tires that cannot match its performance (streets vs slicks). Ive never experienced lock ups with stockers, but have with high mu pads overpowering the tires. Ive never boiled brake fluid with stockers, yet did so within 3 laps with high torque pads. Same track, same tires. Only heat will boil brake fluid, so here you go.

A high mu pad is capable of stopping the car in shorter distance (assuming proper tires are on), but with a side effect of more heat being generated. Zero question about it. There is no free lunch here and all folks who use high mu pads immediately go looking for vented pistons, more air flow cooling, highest level brake fluid, etc.

If this was not the case, anyone could simply put the highest mu pad without any changes to cooling with no adverse effects whatsoever. Heck, manufacturers would put high mu pads in a factory with street brake fluid 😀. But that is NOT the case, as countless posts in this forum confirm over and over.

My calipers were still the original red color, with zero cooling mods and zero rebuilds after 3 years of tracking my 17 1LE for some 65 days at 7 venues. Ask anyone using high torque pads what shape their calipers are after 65 track days. And there is only one reasons for the difference: heat.
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Old 07-07-2023, 04:09 PM   #110
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One can certainly fade a lower mu pad, but that's not to be confused with overheating the braking system. The most reliable sign of heat difference between lower and higher mu pads is calipers: such as Brembos becoming Brownbos and needing cooling solutions and more frequent rebuilds. Ask any pro crew chief Another consideration, which any racing brake website will mention up front: pad mu should be matched properly to tire type. There is no good reason to put higher mu pad with tires that cannot match its performance (streets vs slicks). Ive never experienced lock ups with stockers, but have with high mu pads overpowering the tires. Ive never boiled brake fluid with stockers, yet did so within 3 laps with high torque pads. Same track, same tires. Only heat will boil brake fluid, so here you go.

A high mu pad is capable of stopping the car in shorter distance (assuming proper tires are on), but with a side effect of more heat being generated. Zero question about it. There is no free lunch here and all folks who use high mu pads immediately go looking for vented pistons, more air flow cooling, highest level brake fluid, etc.

If this was not the case, anyone could simply put the highest mu pad without any changes to cooling with no adverse effects whatsoever. Heck, manufacturers would put high mu pads in a factory with street brake fluid 😀. But that is NOT the case, as countless posts in this forum confirm over and over.

My calipers were still the original red color, with zero cooling mods and zero rebuilds after 3 years of tracking my 17 1LE for some 65 days at 7 venues. Ask anyone using high torque pads what shape their calipers are after 65 track days. And there is only one reasons for the difference: heat.
Well, all the heat has gotta come from somewhere, the laws of thermodynamics determine how much energy will be converted to heat when the brakes are applied and this can't vary.

However, where the heat goes may be different depending on the brake pad, it's certainly possible different brake pads have different thermal conductivity coefficients. This would mean different amounts of the same total heat load goes into the brake pad vs the rotor. Also, different pad materials may have different thermal capacities, or specific heat, which is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of a material a certain amount. Metals tend to have low specific heat, so it doesn't take as much energy to raise the temp of metal vs, say water, air or ceramics.

A brake pad's thermal conductivity and specific heat would depend more on what materials it's made of rather than it's coefficient of friction though, so one brand's high-mu pad may perform much differently in this regard vs another's, and these properties will determine how much the actual temperature of the brake pad will go up and how much energy the pad vs rotor will absorb.
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Old 07-07-2023, 04:51 PM   #111
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Well, all the heat has gotta come from somewhere, the laws of thermodynamics determine how much energy will be converted to heat when the brakes are applied and this can't vary.

However, where the heat goes may be different depending on the brake pad, it's certainly possible different brake pads have different thermal conductivity coefficients. This would mean different amounts of the same total heat load goes into the brake pad vs the rotor. Also, different pad materials may have different thermal capacities, or specific heat, which is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of a material a certain amount. Metals tend to have low specific heat, so it doesn't take as much energy to raise the temp of metal vs, say water, air or ceramics.

A brake pad's thermal conductivity and specific heat would depend more on what materials it's made of rather than it's coefficient of friction though, so one brand's high-mu pad may perform much differently in this regard vs another's, and these properties will determine how much the actual temperature of the brake pad will go up and how much energy the pad vs rotor will absorb.
Ya, I'd agree that different pad compound technologies may offer different thermal characteristics with some being worse and some being better. But, by and large, most folks that run high mu pads also run ti plates as part of the cooling mods to try slowing down the thermal conductivity. But all things considered, shorter stopping distances mean more heat and at the end the heat will sink into the system eventually, especially if extra supplemental colling improvements are not provided. Of course, as already mentioned, type of venues play a big role here. On venues with long and fast corners, there might be minimal, or no issues, as threshold braking may not be present at all and/or straights long enough to cool things sufficiently for the temps to recover between braking zones. OTOH, venues with short straights and many threshold braking zones will flag this issue in dramatic fashion after only a few laps. So, it certainly "depends" and hence individual experience may vary. I'd say the best test re heat effect is running a venue with short straights and mostly threshold braking zones for 30mins at full pace and see what happens. Bottom line: do whatever makes you fast.

Note that my advice to the latest poster was also based on his pace at Mosport, where he still has a good few seconds to work on. Hence the focus here should be on maximizing momentum and high speed balance vs braking to gain laptime and hi mu pad would actually be a hinderence.

Peace!
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Old 07-07-2023, 06:55 PM   #112
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Ya, I'd agree that different pad compound technologies may offer different thermal characteristics with some being worse and some being better. But, by and large, most folks that run high mu pads also run ti plates as part of the cooling mods to try slowing down the thermal conductivity. But all things considered, shorter stopping distances mean more heat and at the end the heat will sink into the system eventually, especially if extra supplemental colling improvements are not provided. Of course, as already mentioned, type of venues play a big role here. On venues with long and fast corners, there might be minimal, or no issues, as threshold braking may not be present at all and/or straights long enough to cool things sufficiently for the temps to recover between braking zones. OTOH, venues with short straights and many threshold braking zones will flag this issue in dramatic fashion after only a few laps. So, it certainly "depends" and hence individual experience may vary. I'd say the best test re heat effect is running a venue with short straights and mostly threshold braking zones for 30mins at full pace and see what happens. Bottom line: do whatever makes you fast.

Note that my advice to the latest poster was also based on his pace at Mosport, where he still has a good few seconds to work on. Hence the focus here should be on maximizing momentum and high speed balance vs braking to gain laptime and hi mu pad would actually be a hinderence.

Peace!
Thanks very much for sharing your experience!

Sounds like some pads transfer more heat through the pad and into the caliper than others. It makes sense this correlates with high-mu pads in general, they must be made of materials with higher thermal conductivity... at least in some brands. Also, since conservation of energy is a thing, that means the rotors are running cooler.

It may an unavoidable trade-off in pad material, but it could also be an intentional design choice. If your rotors were overheating before your calipers then higher pad conductivity would be an advantage. Just guessing, at this point we need a brake pad engineer to chime in.
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