[NW-99SS]

Agree to disagree - all 3 feel a lot of pressure to out-perform the other's "top dog".

Ford, GM, or Dodge, it doesn't matter, they all want their top model to be better than the others. Hellcat Redeye really surprised Ford with straight line speed, ZL1 and ZLE totally blew them away in handling/track capability.

The GT500 had the difficult time of finding it's place between the straight line Mopars and track focused ZL1s.

[joe944]

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

I always have to take a step back when somebody expresses this idea of a Mustang or Camaro trim level being an "answer" to something the other camp is doing. I believe both organizations simply look to ensure they produce products with content they believe their target demographic will consume at the highest take rate.

I do not think the current GT500 is an "answer" to the ZL1 and therefore also chuckle at the idea it is "late to the game". The ZL1 has been offered by GM since the 2017 model year. It was not an "answer" to the GT350/GT350R. It was just the evolution of the previous generation ZL1. The new Mustang Mach 1 is not "an answer" to our SS 1LE package. The idea that there is an answer, or should be an answer in every trim level versus a competing manufacturer is absurd.

In my opinion, the only time a manufacturer has a need to "answer" a competitors offering is when they are losing significant sales in a given market. Ford definitely has to "answer" GM's ponycar offering back in 2010 because the Mustang was losing market share in big numbers. That is not the case today.

They literally bring examples of the competition out to their R&D tracks and compare them. These companies absolutely release a new product with the expectation that it will outperform the competition or offer a better value.

"Venom kills demons."

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

I always have to take a step back when somebody expresses this idea of a Mustang or Camaro trim level being an "answer" to something the other camp is doing. I believe both organizations simply look to ensure they produce products with content they believe their target demographic will consume at the highest take rate.

I do not think the current GT500 is an "answer" to the ZL1 and therefore also chuckle at the idea it is "late to the game". The ZL1 has been offered by GM since the 2017 model year. It was not an "answer" to the GT350/GT350R. It was just the evolution of the previous generation ZL1. The new Mustang Mach 1 is not "an answer" to our SS 1LE package. The idea that there is an answer, or should be an answer in every trim level versus a competing manufacturer is absurd.

In my opinion, the only time a manufacturer has a need to "answer" a competitors offering is when they are losing significant sales in a given market. Ford definitely has to "answer" GM's ponycar offering back in 2010 because the Mustang was losing market share in big numbers. That is not the case today.

Sounds like two sides of the same coin. Offering a vehicle consumers will buy requires it to compete with the competition. Remaining competitive is the same as having an 'answer' for the competition.

The PP2 was ABSOLUTELY an answer to the 1LE. The GT500 is absolutely an answer to the ZL1. Ford wants those sales, and has to 'answer' with an equivalent car to get them.

[MBSS1LE]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Agree to disagree - all 3 feel a lot of pressure to out-perform the other's "top dog".

Ford, GM, or Dodge, it doesn't matter, they all want their top model to be better than the others. Hellcat Redeye really surprised Ford with straight line speed, ZL1 and ZLE totally blew them away in handling/track capability.

The GT500 had the difficult time of finding it's place between the straight line Mopars and track focused ZL1s.

That you disagree does not surprise me, as my response was to your specific post. That's fine. But let's be clear, GM's top performance model is the Corvette, Ford's is the GT. Are you suggesting that the Ford GT is an answer to the C8 Corvette? Is anyone really cross-shopping the two cars?

I don't think the current GT500 is struggling to find its place at all. It is the top performance trim of Mustang and seems to do all things well. In order to be a strong offering, it does not mean a car has to outperform another in every performance metric. People who are buying Hellcat's know they are not going to compete if they take it to a road course event. People who take a ZL1 to a drag race know they will not be top dog.

When I was shopping, I did not look at the Dodge offerings, because I knew they did not have anything that met the criteria I was looking for. Only Ford and Chevrolet did. And between those two, the SS with the 1LE package was the better option. For me.

I think anyone who has actually been involved in automotive planning can tell you that the development cycle is too long to think that you can "answer" something a competitor produces without being perceived as being "late". No, it's better to plan what you feel that the market will want when production begins. Tha's not to say you do not pay attention to what your competition is doing.

[Martinjlm]

Seeing as how I spent my last 10 years at GM leading the powertrain competitor intel group I clearly have an opinion on the matter. And I also happen to be very well acquainted with the people who lead the competitor intel teams for Stellantis (used to be FCA) and Ford. Even more so now that they are my customers. I used to get paid a lot of money by GM to tell them what Ford, FCA, Toyota, and everybody else was doing. Now I get paid a lot of money by a company that does consulting work for all of them. So yes, they do pay attention to each other’s every move.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Seeing as how I spent my last 10 years at GM leading the powertrain competitor intel group I clearly have an opinion on the matter. And I also happen to be very well acquainted with the people who lead the competitor intel teams for Stellantis (used to be FCA) and Ford. Even more so now that they are my customers. I used to get paid a lot of money by GM to tell them what Ford, FCA, Toyota, and everybody else was doing. Now I get paid a lot of money by a company that does consulting work for all of them. So yes, they do pay attention to each other’s every move.

Thanks for the insight. I figured there was no way that Ford/GM/Dodge weren't trying to outgun the other with the various trims in order to elicit sales and drive interest in their brand. Building high performance models attempting to outperform the competition is essentially "answering" to the competition. I think they typically refer to it as "bench marking". Billy Johnson stated they benchmarked the competition during the development of the 2020 GT500.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I gotta say, the ZL1 will always be compared to the GT500. And I'm sure some people think the GT500 is a better deal...IF you can get one at MSRP (which you can't). But I still keep reading about all these engine failures with the GT500 and I gotta say the ZL1, tho "underpowered", is still a much better deal when you factor in everything that comes with it. The fact that you can get one fully loaded and still come out less than Base MSRP of the GT500 says a lot. And obviously GM built more of a rock solid powerplant than Ford did. I still am under the impression that the GT500 was a rush job and Ford HAD to have it ready by MY2020. If they had just 1 more year to develop it further then I think things would be a lot different.

at the ZL1 being "underpowered". How about: just not as extreme hp as the heavier cars (i.e. 4,170 lbs GT500 and 4,525 lbs Hellcat Redeye)?

IMO MSRP to MSRP, the GT500 (base) similarly equipped to a ZL1 is not quite up to the overall performance value of a ZL1 because it is a lot more expensive. This is because the ZL1 comes fully equipped - with the GT500 you have to option in the Recaros (which are manual and are not heated/cooled), and the Tech package, so at $79,700 with those two options, it still doesn't have quite as many features as a ZL1. And that doesn't even factor in the ADM that most dealers still seem to be charging.

Contrary to the ADMs of the Shelby, GM is offering incentives on all Camaros, including the ZL1. So at the moment, a buyer is looking at ~$66k for an A10 ZL1 with a few options vs. likely $85k for a similarly equipped GT500 (with a "moderate" $5k ADM). A $19k price difference buys you an extra 110 hp (and a bonus ~250 lbs), and a DCT and CF driveshaft, and several tenths in the 1/4 mile at a drag strip (not really on the street due to traction limitations). That extra dough is why it's not quite the performance value that the ZL1 is.

I suppose if you could find a completely base GT500 for $74k, then it may be an equal performance value to an A10 ZL1 with a few options since they'd only be about $8k apart at those prices ($66k vs. $74k).

Of course, this all assumes people can actually find any of these cars to buy, or that they can be ordered and built right now!

[MBSS1LE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Seeing as how I spent my last 10 years at GM leading the powertrain competitor intel group I clearly have an opinion on the matter. And I also happen to be very well acquainted with the people who lead the competitor intel teams for Stellantis (used to be FCA) and Ford. Even more so now that they are my customers. I used to get paid a lot of money by GM to tell them what Ford, FCA, Toyota, and everybody else was doing. Now I get paid a lot of money by a company that does consulting work for all of them. So yes, they do pay attention to each other’s every move.

No doubt they pay attention to what their competitors might be doing. They would be negligent in their jobs if they didn't. What I was trying to point out (and apparently I'm doing a poor job of it) is that when the consumer enthusiast sees a product hit the market, more often than not, it is not "an answer" to something someone else did, but the offering that company anticipates will sell well/be well received by the target consumer.

I am the target consumer for the SS 1LE-equipped Camaro, and thus after considering all options, it is what I bought. But I know I am only a very small percentage of the broader consumer base that cares about great, as delivered from the factory, handling in a street driven car. I believe the Mustang has continually outsold the Camaro, at all trim levels, for the past few years because the Camaro checks all the boxes for a performance enthusist, but it's not as appealing to a broader buying population.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

No doubt they pay attention to what their competitors might be doing. They would be negligent in their jobs if they didn't. What I was trying to point out (and apparently I'm doing a poor job of it) is that when the consumer enthusiast sees a product hit the market, more often than not, it is not "an answer" to something someone else did, but the offering that company anticipates will sell well/be well received by the target consumer.

I am the target consumer for the SS 1LE-equipped Camaro, and thus after considering all options, it is what I bought. But I know I am only a very small percentage of the broader consumer base that cares about great, as delivered from the factory, handling in a street driven car. I believe the Mustang has continually outsold the Camaro, at all trim levels, for the past few years because the Camaro checks all the boxes for a performance enthusist, but it's not as appealing to a broader buying population.

They most certainly DO "answer" to a competing product. That is straight up what it is. The Camaro was gone for like 6 years. Thru that entire time not once did Ford up the power. They stayed at 305 or 310 or 315 or whatever it was all that time. As soon as the Camaro was announced with 400 HP (A6) and 426 HP (M6) guess what...a year later here comes the Coyote. Why? Because Ford had to provide an answer to the L99/LS3 powerplants. If they didn't, then at the same pricing, who TF would have bought a GT over the SS? Not one person. The SS had more options as standard, looked better (during those years), had higher quality interior components, IRS, and many other features. Including the fact that it would have dusted the GT which is why Ford HAD to answer. Because here are two cars priced similarly except one is nowhere even close in terms of performance, features, etc. That is exactly what it was...Ford "answering" to the Camaro.

GM wasn't finished because they had to answer to the GT500 of that time period. So what did they do, they put out a 580 HP ZL1 to match the 550 HP GT500. So again, a year later Ford answers back by increasing the output of the GT500 to 663. Do you think Ford would have made such a drastic improvement on the GT500 if the ZL1 did not exist? Hell no. They would have maybe upped it to like, 575 HP or something lame.

Same with the S550 GT350. They built that solely to take on the 5th Gen Z28 which ended up in disaster for them since GM had already abandoned it and was about to unleash the 6th Gen. The 6th Gen SS and ZL1 tore up the place and all but wrecked what everyone expected for cars of that pricepoint. And THEN the 1LE versions came out. So all of a sudden here comes the PP2 (dumbass name BTW) with some stupid story of how their mechanics spent their time after hours developing it. Sure. Anyway. You don't think the PP2 was the "answer" to the SLE? And the 18 GT was the answer to the 16 SS? LOL!! Dude they were getting stomped. Ford ONLY took things to that level because they had to match, or, answer to, the Camaro. They weren't even close in performance.

And now the current GT500 took 2 extra years of development. Why? Because whatever they had planned to release for MY2018 was not going to cut it and they needed to answer to the ZL1. And it still comes up short when factoring in price.

All the evidence is there for you. These companies have to keep answer to what the competitors do. if the Camaro gets AWD at some point then guess what, the Mustang will eventually get it too. Because in order to compete you have to answer to what the competition does. There are no two ways about it. Everything we have seen since 2009 has been Ford initially slacking, getting caught with their pants down, falling behind for a year or two (or in the case of the GT500, 3 years) and then having to come up with an answer to what GM does.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

No doubt they pay attention to what their competitors might be doing. They would be negligent in their jobs if they didn't. What I was trying to point out (and apparently I'm doing a poor job of it) is that when the consumer enthusiast sees a product hit the market, more often than not, it is not "an answer" to something someone else did, but the offering that company anticipates will sell well/be well received by the target consumer.

I am the target consumer for the SS 1LE-equipped Camaro, and thus after considering all options, it is what I bought. But I know I am only a very small percentage of the broader consumer base that cares about great, as delivered from the factory, handling in a street driven car. I believe the Mustang has continually outsold the Camaro, at all trim levels, for the past few years because the Camaro checks all the boxes for a performance enthusist, but it's not as appealing to a broader buying population.

It’s more than paying attention. We once delayed the launch of a vehicle because we found out that a competing Honda vehicle was going to launch a couple months later with 1 mpg better. The vehicle was delayed so that an optional fuel economy technology could be made standard and improve the sticker numbers to be equal with the Honda. During C8 development GM purchased two Ferrari 428s, a 911 GT2, a McLaren 570, among other cars. There’s a ton of anecdotes I could lay out because I worked in Product Planning and in Competitor Intel, which was a part of Product Planning. Knowing what competitors are doing is a big part of the product planning process. Once you know, you can decide what to react to and what not to react to. For example, I specifically told Al O. That the 2018 Bullitt was getting an HP bump up to 480. He wasn’t concerned. I also told him that the GT500 was going to get the 10AT (that was the original plan...the switch to DCT delayed the car). He told me the ZL1 was gonna get it first.

[MBSS1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

They most certainly DO "answer" to a competing product. That is straight up what it is. The Camaro was gone for like 6 years. Thru that entire time not once did Ford up the power. They stayed at 305 or 310 or 315 or whatever it was all that time. As soon as the Camaro was announced with 400 HP (A6) and 426 HP (M6) guess what...a year later here comes the Coyote. Why? Because Ford had to provide an answer to the L99/LS3 powerplants. If they didn't, then at the same pricing, who TF would have bought a GT over the SS? Not one person. The SS had more options as standard, looked better (during those years), had higher quality interior components, IRS, and many other features. Including the fact that it would have dusted the GT which is why Ford HAD to answer. Because here are two cars priced similarly except one is nowhere even close in terms of performance, features, etc. That is exactly what it was...Ford "answering" to the Camaro.

GM wasn't finished because they had to answer to the GT500 of that time period. So what did they do, they put out a 580 HP ZL1 to match the 550 HP GT500. So again, a year later Ford answers back by increasing the output of the GT500 to 663. Do you think Ford would have made such a drastic improvement on the GT500 if the ZL1 did not exist? Hell no. They would have maybe upped it to like, 575 HP or something lame.

Same with the S550 GT350. They built that solely to take on the 5th Gen Z28 which ended up in disaster for them since GM had already abandoned it and was about to unleash the 6th Gen. The 6th Gen SS and ZL1 tore up the place and all but wrecked what everyone expected for cars of that pricepoint. And THEN the 1LE versions came out. So all of a sudden here comes the PP2 (dumbass name BTW) with some stupid story of how their mechanics spent their time after hours developing it. Sure. Anyway. You don't think the PP2 was the "answer" to the SLE? And the 18 GT was the answer to the 16 SS? LOL!! Dude they were getting stomped. Ford ONLY took things to that level because they had to match, or, answer to, the Camaro. They weren't even close in performance.

And now the current GT500 took 2 extra years of development. Why? Because whatever they had planned to release for MY2018 was not going to cut it and they needed to answer to the ZL1. And it still comes up short when factoring in price.

All the evidence is there for you. These companies have to keep answer to what the competitors do. if the Camaro gets AWD at some point then guess what, the Mustang will eventually get it too. Because in order to compete you have to answer to what the competition does. There are no two ways about it. Everything we have seen since 2009 has been Ford initially slacking, getting caught with their pants down, falling behind for a year or two (or in the case of the GT500, 3 years) and then having to come up with an answer to what GM does.

Again, you are just reinforcing what I said. Of course there are times when a company has to update a product or 'answer" what a competitor does, but typically only if they feel it is going to reduce their market share. I never said producers never "answer" their competition.

In your Gen5 example, Ford certainly had to update (answer) the S195 to be competitive with the Camaro. Why? Because they were losing a significant market share to GM in the segment. It's the same reason the Mustang did NOT change much during the Camaro's hiatus. There was no threat to market share. Why did GM bring the Camaro back in 2010? Because Ford was selling Mustangs like hotcakes and they wanted a piece of that pie!

I bolded one of your statements because we all know it is not true. A lot of people are going to buy Mustangs over a Camaro no matter what the performance disparity might be. The 2010 Camaro only outsold the Mustang by ~7,500 units in 2010, so saying nobody would buy them is hyperbole. Hell, the Camaro has been offering better performance for years now and the mustang still outsells it.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

Again, you are just reinforcing what I said. Of course there are times when a company has to update a product or 'answer" what a competitor does, but typically only if they feel it is going to reduce their market share. I never said producers never "answer" their competition.

So then what was the point you were trying to make? Your initial comment seemed to be resistant to the idea that companies answer to the competition. And now you're saying...what exactly??

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

In your Gen5 example, Ford certainly had to update (answer) the S195 to be competitive with the Camaro. Why? Because they were losing a significant market share to GM in the segment. It's the same reason the Mustang did NOT change much during the Camaro's hiatus. There was no threat to market share. Why did GM bring the Camaro back in 2010? Because Ford was selling Mustangs like hotcakes and they wanted a piece of that pie!

You mean "S197".

The Camaro was going to come back regardless of what happened with the Mustang. That was always the plan, that they were going to come back at some point. The sales were always going to be there.

Originally Posted by MBSS1LE

I bolded one of your statements because we all know it is not true. A lot of people are going to buy Mustangs over a Camaro no matter what the performance disparity might be. The 2010 Camaro only outsold the Mustang by ~7,500 units in 2010, so saying nobody would buy them is hyperbole. Hell, the Camaro has been offering better performance for years now and the mustang still outsells it.

You missed the point.

The point is that if they were selling at the same price, then nobody would buy the significantly lesser performing, significantly less equipped, significantly less optioned vehicle. The Mustang sold well because it was significantly cheaper. In fact, Base GTs were selling for mid to high $20K. A LOT of people who couldn't afford or couldn't get financing for a SS were able to get into a Base GT. But again, the SS destroyed it in performance and had a ton more options. Now in this same case, if the GT costed the same as the SS, then only diehard fans would have still bought it. And that also means that if a Base GT was as much as a standard SS, then a similarly equipped GT would have been around the price of a ZL1. Now who would have bought a GT PP1 Premium for the same price as a ZL1?? Again, only diehard fans and even half of them would have gone elsewhere.

The Mustang outsells, again, because they have bare bones offerings for extremely low prices. And for a long time they were basically throwing the EB Stangs at everyone who walked in their doors.

So that is why companies have to answer to what their competitors offer. Because otherwise there would be a great disparity between what your money will get you from one vehicle to the next. While, yes, some will still buy, they would lose a large portion of sales to the competition and that would be a devastating loss. That is why Ford HAD to put the PP2 out. Because they needed something to compete with the SLE. And that is why the GT500 came out a bit undercooked. Because they HAD to get something out to compete with the ZL1 when they did.

[Camaro fanboy]

s550 vs our cars lol

not even close driving wise. no idea about performance. that part imho is not important.
how a car drives is very important to me. those s550's are an utter joke of a car to drive.
the list of problems i found on mine it'll take me 2 years of typing lol.
the entire cars are junk. weak engines. terrible road holding. wandering at speed. hood flutter. unable to go above 90mph safely.
the list is endless.
our cars drive like a german car. utterly rock solid at all speeds.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Camaro fanboy

s550 vs our cars lol

not even close driving wise. no idea about performance. that part imho is not important.
how a car drives is very important to me. those s550's are an utter joke of a car to drive.
the list of problems i found on mine it'll take me 2 years of typing lol.
the entire cars are junk. weak engines. terrible road holding. wandering at speed. hood flutter. unable to go above 90mph safely.
the list is endless.
our cars drive like a german car. utterly rock solid at all speeds.

I had a 2018 GT Premium w/ A10, PP1, and MagneRide (sold it 2 weeks ago) and I disagree with your list. My car was great: Strong engine, good road handling, no wandering, and no hood flutter at higher speeds. I'll add to that the seats were very comfortable (heated and cooled), the interior was pretty nice (premium touches in the right spots), and it looked great.

Nothing about it was "junk" or a "joke".