[shaffe]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

For me, even your scenario would be too little of a compromise to not buy the car I want to drive.

As for seeing inside, it's tough to see back there in the Camaro through the side windows. The seats will partially block the view, and tint would make it even harder. Plus, the windows are narrow.

And I respect that. To me that's a huge compromise because from May till October I am playing softball at the minimum 2 nights a week. And like I mentioned I know I can do it in a Mustang, because I have before. The current Mustang actually has a slightly bigger trunk than my Focus(and I have been doing this with my focus as well).

[outobie]

Originally Posted by my1stchevy

"Chevrolet also plans to target buyers who might otherwise opt for a Ford Focus RS, Hyundai Veloster N, Honda Civic Type R or Kia Stinger"

Never in a million years would I have considered one of these cars over any Camaro trim...Never!!!

I looked at the focus RS, civic R and the Kia Stinger

I bought the camaro because it was convertible.
I still keep looking at the Civic R and wonder...

[outobie]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

This stuff isn't really rocket science folks...the Challenger sells because it has room. I see more Scat Pack Chargers around here then anything. People want family hauler performance vehicles because 2 seat cars have little to no room in a family for most. If I could only have one vehicle it wouldn't be a 6th gen Camaro. It's a toy car or a daily for the guy/gal that doesn't have kids or kids are all grown up.

I’m a father of 3 (5, 10 & 15)

My camaro is a daily driver for me...wife has Nissan Armada family hauler

[RunRS9114]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The roads are full of rear wheel drive pick up trucks, coupes and sedans and they all manage. A Camaro with proper tires is no more difficult to drive than any other. I can accelerate from a light as well or better than the majority of front wheel drive cars because most have worn all-season tires.

It really comes down to how you view your car. Is it your baby that never gets driven as it depreciates? Or is it a car, to be consumed before you get the next one? I often wonder if the drop in sales is because garages are full of never driven 5th and 6th gen Camaros

Completely agree with this! I don't have the luxury of second car, so the Camaro is my daily. I slap Blizzaks on it in the winter and have had absolutely no issues. I fully believe that you buy a car to drive it, not to leave it sitting in your garage. Road scars suck, but the fun is what matters in the end to me.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by RunRS9114

Completely agree with this! I don't have the luxury of second car, so the Camaro is my daily. I slap Blizzaks on it in the winter and have had absolutely no issues. I fully believe that you buy a car to drive it, not to leave it sitting in your garage. Road scars suck, but the fun is what matters in the end to me.

I put Xpel on the front fascia, hood and ahead of the rear tires to minimize the scars.

I drove my 2004 GTO for 11-1/2 years through every type of weather. Its was great to see it at the end. Worn but still looking really good. I still got $9k for it too.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by cbr1100xx

Having owned a '15 GT and a '17 SS, I can say for sure that as a daily driver the GT is more liveable. It's got way better visibility IMO and "almost" feels like a normal car in that respect. The Camaro feels like a compromise. As a weekend toy, it wouldn't matter to me but as a daily it might and does to many I'm sure. I think that's the biggest issue the Camaro has. Sure some say screw it and make it work but that isn't necessarily the majority.

I looked at the Mustang, ended up with the 17SS as my DD. I wouldn't want drive anything else. Its just a blast in the manual version.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

I guess I'm probably one of the few that would never understand the 'it's not a daily driver' argument.

Unless I need to go to Home Depot and pick up a sheet of plywood or have a family of 4 I need to cart around everyday, I can't see anything about this car that's a compromise as a daily driver for a single person, or couple, to go to work and back or putt around town.

This car begs to be driven every minute of the day. Right now, I can't wait for 5pm to hop in it. If I can't feel this for a sports car that cost 35-40k, I'm not buying it, period.

Yeh... my thoughts too. If I don't drive mine for a day I get edgy to let of steam and drive it just to be driving.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The compromise is I didn't have to do that in the Mustang. Buddies stuff would normally consist of the same stuff. What if I am picking up more than 1 person? Now I know that wouldn't fly for golf but if it's my turn to drive and I got to get my stuff out of the trunk when in this cars direct competitor I didn't have to do that. I could conveniently leave my stuff in my trunk and not worry about it.

Now this is just the paranoid in me, but having to have the seats folded down means people can peak in and see what your hauling around.

Either you want or like the Camaro or you don't. The real issue is lack of marketing, ads and promotion...very little of it exists.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by KCXLT

I'm just running into that also. Was thinking about trading up from my 17 2ss but so far no allocation from a dealer that just sold my buddy a Z06.

The Challenger is a nice looking car. Dodge has much smarter advertising than Chevy with Dodge Brothers cool commercials, high profile cars like the Hellcat then Demon. Even if they didnt get the HC or Dem. it brought people into the showrooms, to the internet to look at the road testing and many ended up with the 6 bangers or RT.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by fastball

You make them sound worse than they really are.

Don't forget, every muscle car in the 60s and 70s had more power than the limits of their handling capabilities were designed for. Engineers had unlocked the key to horsepower in the 50s but it took another 30+ years for technology in the handling and braking to catch up to the power those cars put out. Bias ply tires, 4 wheel drum brakes (even those with front disc still were severely under-braked), leaf spring suspensions, recirculating ball steering, over-boosted power steering..... you could get into serious trouble with ALL muscle cars back then if you tried to do anything but an absolute straight line, then easy braking to slow down.

On a track and in the slalom, the Hellcat will run circles around even the best Corvettes, GTOs, and Chevelles with the highest available suspension set ups in the 60s and 70s.

Yes but they were still fun. Out of the big 3 the GM cars were usually maintained a tighter better riding car. The Chrysler A and B bodies would lose there handling and ride smoothness as you racked up the miles. GM intermediates seemed to keep a smoother better handling ride longer. The Big Fords and Chrylsers and of course GM Luxury cars had great Highway cruising comfort even after racking up miles. As far as Camaros and Mustangs back then not sure how the ride comfort held. The 1st Gen barracuda and A Body Duster/Dart would get sloppy steering and a hard ride over time just as the B body RR's.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The roads are full of rear wheel drive pick up trucks, coupes and sedans and they all manage. A Camaro with proper tires is no more difficult to drive than any other. I can accelerate from a light as well or better than the majority of front wheel drive cars because most have worn all-season tires.

It really comes down to how you view your car. Is it your baby that never gets driven as it depreciates? Or is it a car, to be consumed before you get the next one? I often wonder if the drop in sales is because garages are full of never driven 5th and 6th gen Camaros

I see those rear wheel pick ups every year going up a hill in a snowstorm with there back end going side to side giving it full gas going about 12 feet a minute . The NON XDrive BMWs are the worst , i have one of those to many sliding backwards at me . And yes you nailed the worn tires people drive on , they are usually standing next to there upside down car say they don't know what happen, and there bald tires unmatching at that are easily seen. I love my Camaro way to much to subject it to that insanity .
I only use my Camaro for the enjoyment of driving and that is what the Camaro does best . A overnight bag fits perfectly in the trunk and a cooler on the backseat . I added a video with AL Oppenheiser from 2016 talking about the 6th gen ,at minute 3:30 he talks about not needing a Camaro which i think says a lot about owning a Camaro,you should check it the video .

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by fastball

You make them sound worse than they really are.

Don't forget, every muscle car in the 60s and 70s had more power than the limits of their handling capabilities were designed for. Engineers had unlocked the key to horsepower in the 50s but it took another 30+ years for technology in the handling and braking to catch up to the power those cars put out. Bias ply tires, 4 wheel drum brakes (even those with front disc still were severely under-braked), leaf spring suspensions, recirculating ball steering, over-boosted power steering..... you could get into serious trouble with ALL muscle cars back then if you tried to do anything but an absolute straight line, then easy braking to slow down.

On a track and in the slalom, the Hellcat will run circles around even the best Corvettes, GTOs, and Chevelles with the highest available suspension set ups in the 60s and 70s.

I'll take a 63 grand sport against the Hellcat on a road course, i get what you are saying . The sad thing is a 6th gen turbo 4 1Le would probably give it a race around some tracks . They are just way behind the times when it come to handling working with a platform from the 1990s . I have owned Camaros with those front disc brakes you talk about and leaf springs , i am thankful Chevy now builds a very fast controllable Camaro using the best technology and components available for there customers , can't say that about Dodge.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Haha! Yeah because doing 80 in a hellcat challenger on the highway is a death wish. You are out of your mind. These cars don't handle bad at all. Better than some worse than others. Too many "enthusiasts" believe way to much of what they read. I wonder how many of you in this very thread ever pushed any of these cars. I've owned all of the top models of the big three (well, my ZL1 that I just bought weeks ago is just a ZL1 because those canards and big wing look dumb and I don't need it to handle any better than the regular one), and all of them were great in their own way. I have to say out of any of them my GT500 is the one that would get away from you the easiest, but that isnt by going down the highway doing 80mph. Amazingly enough, even that car could manage that task safely.
It comes down to what you want in a car and how it makes you feel. It seems like many people these days want controlled power and handling so good that they don't have to fear loosing it. Maybe they were raised by helicopter parents or something. For me, I like cars the scare you and everyone in them. Trust me, if you master those types of cars you'll be a better driver. I'm a drag racer and dirt track guy. Maybe that has something to do with it.

Physics is Physics .

[JaxChris]

Camaro lost as soon as the 6th gen came out and tier topping trims were 3-5k more than the previous generation. Mustang got a huge boost because they finally discovered what IRS meant. The S550 Mustang was an entirely new vehicle for Ford, unlike anything in their history and the cost was substantial, yet they kept the pricing within 1k of the prior generation.

GM also killed themselves on many models by tipping their hand with 20-30% off sales in 2014-2016. This told even the most uneducated members of the consuming public that there was massive margins on domestically produced vehicles (even though they claimed for 2 decades that production needed to go international due to margins only being in the low single-digits).

GM needs to hit the reset button on the 7th gen Camaro. Strip the car down to essentials and offer the lowest price on the market for a 2-door, RWD coupe with more moderate increases for technology packs, bigger motors and track packs. Make the amenities more modular so people can actually upgrade their cars major systems again without a massive headache. It's a sports coupe, it is supposed to be mod friendly. When it is a PITA just to swap an amp and speakers for better sound, you're not in touch with the market segment you're selling to.

Al has said multiple times they are no longer limited to being one step behind the Corvette. But I question whether he understands that Camaro buyers are extremely different than Corvette buyers. We don't want everything done for us in one tidy package, but we do want to be able to add things later from the higher trims to a lower or mid trim example.

The Ford and Dodge rivals are magnitudes more friendly to modding than the 6th gen Camaro. Everything from audio to suspension to powertrain is easier to work on and there is more competition in the aftermarket for those cars.

But hey... we can't even be heard by GM to get a proper center console or glovebox size in the car, why should we think we will get anything else that makes true gearheads happy? Sure, your warranty is good on the track -- until you change tires, then GM won't honor it. Every piece of the car must be OEM and unmolested by the customer or 3rd party.

I sold the better half's Equinox and got her a Mustang Ecoboost Premium. It is amazing the differences there are between the cars. Compared to my 2016 2SS I can do anything to the Mustang with a 60-piece toolkit, an OBD2 connector and a laptop. The interior is more comfortable and has less NVH. Turning off ANC on the Mustang the NVH is still lower than a Camaro with ANC enabled. And they didn't use sound deadening material either.

Al O. should be replaced with someone that understands pony car owners. These are still pony cars. They are lighter than a 4-door sedan. Stop calling them muscle cars, the Camaro is too cramped to be called a muscle car.

Maybe if GM really allowed Team Camaro to deliver what Camaro owners want, then "Camaro" might stop failing spellcheck. Aren't you tired of seeing the red line under the name of your car each time -- like the device is telling you that you made an error?