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Old 06-30-2020, 07:36 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by TRZ06 View Post
In regards to your 1LE comments, you are not the target market for the 1LE.

The 1LE IMO was GM's best achievement. For its intended market (performance first and built right) crowd , it hits all its marks. It has all the components needed right out off the box and looks the part. You factor in its cost for performance and it doesn't get much better.

I have had mine for 2 years now and I still love it. I had the 16' M3 prior and hated it after about 3 mths. Granted I am probably in the minority, but for what I was looking for as a car/performance guy, it does not disappoint.

The Alpha chassis IS superior to the Mustang chassis. You know this if you spend any time at 9/10th 10/10ths of the limits in both and throw in some off camber corners, broken pavement mid-corner, etc. The Alpha chassis stays well sorted and composed, which gives drivers confidence. This is the target market for the 1LE

I honestly could give a rats ass of others think of my car, I buy a car for how it makes me feel when driving it, not what others think as I drive by. That fact actually works in my favor because I get a bigger discount off MSRP when I go to sign on the dotted line.

The way I see it is that GM did their homework before hand and produced a great product that didn't need much tweaking, while the others played catch up. Is that the best sales strategy, maybe not, but as a consumer that doesn't have unlimited funds to upgrade every year I would rather buy a proper performance car once.

I learned this lesson the hard way with my M3. The M3 is very similar to the Mustang approach in that regard, BMW put out a underperforming model and makes small changes to try to bandaids its shortcomings, or puts out a "special" model and jack up its price. While someone like me who can't buy a new car every year gets stuck with shit. I suffered 2.5 years until my lease was up on the M3. While a great sales tactic to screw over people, I won't be fooled again. So, for me I will take GM's approach on how they did the 1LE over how Ford does the Mustang.
Very well said and true in my case as well. I'll take the "designed by GM committee" over Frod half done finish it yourself junk every time.
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Old 06-30-2020, 07:50 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by TRZ06 View Post
In regards to your 1LE comments, you are not the target market for the 1LE.

The 1LE IMO was GM's best achievement. For its intended market (performance first and built right) crowd , it hits all its marks. It has all the components needed right out off the box and looks the part. You factor in its cost for performance and it doesn't get much better.

I have had mine for 2 years now and I still love it. I had the 16' M3 prior and hated it after about 3 mths. Granted I am probably in the minority, but for what I was looking for as a car/performance guy, it does not disappoint.

The Alpha chassis IS superior to the Mustang chassis. You know this if you spend any time at 9/10th 10/10ths of the limits in both and throw in some off camber corners, broken pavement mid-corner, etc. The Alpha chassis stays well sorted and composed, which gives drivers confidence. This is the target market for the 1LE

I honestly could give a rats ass of others think of my car, I buy a car for how it makes me feel when driving it, not what others think as I drive by. That fact actually works in my favor because I get a bigger discount off MSRP when I go to sign on the dotted line.

The way I see it is that GM did their homework before hand and produced a great product that didn't need much tweaking, while the others played catch up. Is that the best sales strategy, maybe not, but as a consumer that doesn't have unlimited funds to upgrade every year I would rather buy a proper performance car once.

I learned this lesson the hard way with my M3. The M3 is very similar to the Mustang approach in that regard, BMW put out a underperforming model and makes small changes to try to bandaids its shortcomings, or puts out a "special" model and jack up its price. While someone like me who can't buy a new car every year gets stuck with shit. I suffered 2.5 years until my lease was up on the M3. While a great sales tactic to screw over people, I won't be fooled again. So, for me I will take GM's approach on how they did the 1LE over how Ford does the Mustang.
You missed what I was getting at, like I said, they got the hardware right. There are no good special editions for the 6th gen.

I strongly stand by my opinion that there are very, very few "car guys" in a position of authority at GM. They're pumping out toasters faster than Toyota did 10 years ago. Yes, they have a few bright spots, but a lot of duds
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:14 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by IOMike View Post
You missed what I was getting at, like I said, they got the hardware right. There are no good special editions for the 6th gen.

I strongly stand by my opinion that there are very, very few "car guys" in a position of authority at GM. They're pumping out toasters faster than Toyota did 10 years ago. Yes, they have a few bright spots, but a lot of duds
I gotta dive in here. GM has Al O. running chassis development for Electric Vehicles, Tadge Juechter over all performance cars including Corvette, Camaro, and V-Series/Blackwing. Ed Piatek over Corvette and Mark Dickens over Camaro both report to Tadge. All of them are track drivers. Mark Reuss (President) and Dan Amann (CEO of Cruise, GM’s wholly owned Autonomous Vehicles company) are both serious track rats. Dan Nicholson who used to head Global Propulsion Systems and is now in Electric Car development has a Z/28 among other toys in his M1 Concourse garage. And I know I’m forgetting a lot of people.
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Old 07-01-2020, 08:27 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by IOMike View Post
You missed what I was getting at, like I said, they got the hardware right. There are no good special editions for the 6th gen.

I strongly stand by my opinion that there are very, very few "car guys" in a position of authority at GM. They're pumping out toasters faster than Toyota did 10 years ago. Yes, they have a few bright spots, but a lot of duds
I'm not trying to argue with you here, but I feel the opposite. I am a car guy and I have NO interest in some stupid name that has heritage that I have to pay extra for. "1LE" is just the option code for that package. That's exactly how I like it. I don't want someone's stupid name attached so I now have to pay twice as much for that package, trim level, or model.

Also, the 6th gen Camaros (like the SS, SSLE, ZL1, ZLE, etc) are NOT toasters. They are the best performing vehicles in their class, better than most in classes way above, and the best performance per dollar in any class. The only way Chevy could have ruined these cars would be to make them "Special". All that entails is adding some dude's name in the car, a "special" badge, and and extra $10k to MSRP and another $5k=$10k for AMDs.

In fact, I find it hilarious that Ford guys spend 10's of thousands of dollars extra for a Sheby name, when Carroll Shelby went to Chevy first because he loved Chevy and Corvettes. It wasn't until GM turned him away that he went to Ford. You want me to pay extra to put a guy's name on my car that thought that car company was second best? GTFOoH!!!

Let's face it, the S550 has had significant shortcomings. The Mach 1 seems to be the first Coyote powered S550 that doesn't have significant shortcomings (so far as we know). The Tremec updgrade is long overdue, the coolers are long overdue (they don't have to be standard, but they should be available somehow), and let's hope they settled down the suspension, because the PP1 sucked, and the PP2 was better but still not great. Why can't I get these things on a plain GT? I would even pay a bit extra for them as an option or option package. But, I don't want to have to pay for a name to get to this level of performance. To me, this should be the regular GT with a PP or TP option.
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Old 07-01-2020, 08:58 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
I'm not trying to argue with you here, but I feel the opposite. I am a car guy and I have NO interest in some stupid name that has heritage that I have to pay extra for. "1LE" is just the option code for that package. That's exactly how I like it. I don't want someone's stupid name attached so I now have to pay twice as much for that package, trim level, or model.

Also, the 6th gen Camaros (like the SS, SSLE, ZL1, ZLE, etc) are NOT toasters. They are the best performing vehicles in their class, better than most in classes way above, and the best performance per dollar in any class. The only way Chevy could have ruined these cars would be to make them "Special". All that entails is adding some dude's name in the car, a "special" badge, and and extra $10k to MSRP and another $5k=$10k for AMDs.

In fact, I find it hilarious that Ford guys spend 10's of thousands of dollars extra for a Sheby name, when Carroll Shelby went to Chevy first because he loved Chevy and Corvettes. It wasn't until GM turned him away that he went to Ford. You want me to pay extra to put a guy's name on my car that thought that car company was second best? GTFOoH!!!

Let's face it, the S550 has had significant shortcomings. The Mach 1 seems to be the first Coyote powered S550 that doesn't have significant shortcomings (so far as we know). The Tremec updgrade is long overdue, the coolers are long overdue (they don't have to be standard, but they should be available somehow), and let's hope they settled down the suspension, because the PP1 sucked, and the PP2 was better but still not great. Why can't I get these things on a plain GT? I would even pay a bit extra for them as an option or option package. But, I don't want to have to pay for a name to get to this level of performance. To me, this should be the regular GT with a PP or TP option.
Fully agree. Special editions are just a way for Ford to bump up the profit margins a bit more.

If the Mach 1 ends up being 55k+ with the handling pack, why even bother over a lightly used GT350 or ZL1?
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:03 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
I'm not trying to argue with you here, but I feel the opposite. I am a car guy and I have NO interest in some stupid name that has heritage that I have to pay extra for.




Let's face it, the S550 has had significant shortcomings. The Mach 1 seems to be the first Coyote powered S550 that doesn't have significant shortcomings (so far as we know). The Tremec updgrade is long overdue, the coolers are long overdue (they don't have to be standard, but they should be available somehow), and let's hope they settled down the suspension, because the PP1 sucked, and the PP2 was better but still not great. Why can't I get these things on a plain GT? I would even pay a bit extra for them as an option or option package. But, I don't want to have to pay for a name to get to this level of performance. To me, this should be the regular GT with a PP or TP option.
Don't say that first part to guys dying for a Z/28 lol

I agree with most of what you said. I am fine with giving them names, but make them option packages that can be added on and not their own models. I think Ford's strategy is the right idea but the execution was flawed. If people want more performance let them option it in is a great strategy. The flaw was the packages werent 100% sorted out/what they should be.

Camaro was the opposite. The SS is over-engineered for how the majority of drivers will push the car. Great for the enthusiast who will push it to the limit, not so much for the guy who just wanted the V-8 hence why there is now a LT1 model without the SS equipment

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Fully agree. Special editions are just a way for Ford to bump up the profit margins a bit more.

If the Mach 1 ends up being 55k+ with the handling pack, why even bother over a lightly used GT350 or ZL1?
Yep. Business side of things great idea, consumer side not so much.

I'd be willing to bet if there was a Z/28 in the 55K range though people would be all over it even if it was say a 1LE with LT2
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 07-01-2020, 11:07 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
I'm not trying to argue with you here, but I feel the opposite. I am a car guy and I have NO interest in some stupid name that has heritage that I have to pay extra for. "1LE" is just the option code for that package. That's exactly how I like it. I don't want someone's stupid name attached so I now have to pay twice as much for that package, trim level, or model.

Also, the 6th gen Camaros (like the SS, SSLE, ZL1, ZLE, etc) are NOT toasters. They are the best performing vehicles in their class, better than most in classes way above, and the best performance per dollar in any class. The only way Chevy could have ruined these cars would be to make them "Special". All that entails is adding some dude's name in the car, a "special" badge, and and extra $10k to MSRP and another $5k=$10k for AMDs.

In fact, I find it hilarious that Ford guys spend 10's of thousands of dollars extra for a Sheby name, when Carroll Shelby went to Chevy first because he loved Chevy and Corvettes. It wasn't until GM turned him away that he went to Ford. You want me to pay extra to put a guy's name on my car that thought that car company was second best? GTFOoH!!!

Let's face it, the S550 has had significant shortcomings. The Mach 1 seems to be the first Coyote powered S550 that doesn't have significant shortcomings (so far as we know). The Tremec updgrade is long overdue, the coolers are long overdue (they don't have to be standard, but they should be available somehow), and let's hope they settled down the suspension, because the PP1 sucked, and the PP2 was better but still not great. Why can't I get these things on a plain GT? I would even pay a bit extra for them as an option or option package. But, I don't want to have to pay for a name to get to this level of performance. To me, this should be the regular GT with a PP or TP option.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:20 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
I'm not trying to argue with you here, but I feel the opposite. I am a car guy and I have NO interest in some stupid name that has heritage that I have to pay extra for. "1LE" is just the option code for that package. That's exactly how I like it. I don't want someone's stupid name attached so I now have to pay twice as much for that package, trim level, or model.
Good for you - but while the 1LE is a great track car, it doesn't bring the interest that a Shelby or Hellcat does to the lineup. A few enthusiasts, yes, but that's it. You think the reason the base GT500 is $73k is only because of the name? That it has nothing to do with the 760 hp monster under the hood, the DCT, the updated suspension, front/rear end changes, aero development, etc. etc.? Ha. Don't get me wrong, 1LE is a great option package, but to say the Shelby's cost more simply because the name attached to it is blind.

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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
Also, the 6th gen Camaros (like the SS, SSLE, ZL1, ZLE, etc) are NOT toasters. They are the best performing vehicles in their class, better than most in classes way above, and the best performance per dollar in any class. The only way Chevy could have ruined these cars would be to make them "Special". All that entails is adding some dude's name in the car, a "special" badge, and and extra $10k to MSRP and another $5k=$10k for AMDs.
Correction - the 6th gen Camaros are the best in their class at going around a track. They are not the quickest in a straight line. They have the least room. Least visibility. Weirdest ergos. You Camaro guys hang your hat on this one fact (going around turns), and sometimes fall back on that the M6 SS is a couple of tenths quicker in the 1/4 than the M6 GT PP1, even though they trap similar speeds. If you are a track rat, then yes, the 1LE makes perfect sense since those other things don't matter. But for most people, they do.

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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
In fact, I find it hilarious that Ford guys spend 10's of thousands of dollars extra for a Sheby name, when Carroll Shelby went to Chevy first because he loved Chevy and Corvettes. It wasn't until GM turned him away that he went to Ford. You want me to pay extra to put a guy's name on my car that thought that car company was second best? GTFOoH!!!
Again, see my post above. The extra money comes with Ford Performance engines and other upgrades. And regarding Shelby back in the 60s: Who doesn't like Corvettes? Corvettes are AMERICA's sports car (not withstanding the Viper that I hope returns). We're talking about Camaros here. Camaro didn't even exist at the time.

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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
Let's face it, the S550 has had significant shortcomings. The Mach 1 seems to be the first Coyote powered S550 that doesn't have significant shortcomings (so far as we know). The Tremec updgrade is long overdue, the coolers are long overdue (they don't have to be standard, but they should be available somehow), and let's hope they settled down the suspension, because the PP1 sucked, and the PP2 was better but still not great. Why can't I get these things on a plain GT? I would even pay a bit extra for them as an option or option package. But, I don't want to have to pay for a name to get to this level of performance. To me, this should be the regular GT with a PP or TP option.
PP1 w/ MagneRide doesn't suck. I just took mine up a long curvy mountain road drive on Sunday. It's actually very good. Maybe it isn't as good as the SS, but still, it is darn good up those curvy roads and I always enjoy those drives very much.
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Old 07-01-2020, 01:06 PM   #163
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Good for you - but while the 1LE is a great track car, it doesn't bring the interest that a Shelby or Hellcat does to the lineup. A few enthusiasts, yes, but that's it. You think the reason the base GT500 is $73k is only because of the name? That it has nothing to do with the 760 hp monster under the hood, the DCT, the updated suspension, front/rear end changes, aero development, etc. etc.? Ha. Don't get me wrong, 1LE is a great option package, but to say the Shelby's cost more simply because the name attached to it is blind.
You are misquoting me. I never said all $73k is due to the name. But you can bet your you know what that a good $5k-10k is due to the name alone. If they offered a $63k Mustang exactly the same as the GT500 but without the name, would you take it? Yeah, me too. Who wouldn't. With Chevy, you never pay for someone's name. And that is just an MSRP discussion. I noticed you never mentioned ADM's that come with the Shelby name. Would there be ADM's without the name? Probably not. Let's face the facts, the vast majority of the GT350's sold with a higher MSRP and ADMs on top for about the same performance as and SS1LE. A ton of the reason was the Shelby name, and the percieved exclusivity (Ford implied that only a certain number would be made, but that turned out to be not true).

I'm not knocking anyone who paid $10k-$20k for that car, it's their money, they can spend it how they like, but I would never do that. I just don't care that much about some old dude from back in the day, no matter how cool he was (like Carroll Shelby or Steve McQueen).


Quote:
Correction - the 6th gen Camaros are the best in their class at going around a track. They are not the quickest in a straight line. They have the least room. Least visibility. Weirdest ergos. You Camaro guys hang your hat on this one fact (going around turns), and sometimes fall back on that the M6 SS is a couple of tenths quicker in the 1/4 than the M6 GT PP1, even though they trap similar speeds. If you are a track rat, then yes, the 1LE makes perfect sense since those other things don't matter. But for most people, they do.
You're missing the context here, my post was a response to someone who said these are toasters. They are not toasters, they are cars, and in terms of performance, Camaro offers the best bang for the buck. Yes, if you want the visibility of a Accord, you won't find it in a Camaro. Nothing wrong with a Accord either.

Quote:
PP1 w/ MagneRide doesn't suck. I just took mine up a long curvy mountain road drive on Sunday. It's actually very good. Maybe it isn't as good as the SS, but still, it is darn good up those curvy roads and I always enjoy those drives very much.
As a sporty car, no it doesn't suck at all. Yes, it does suck badly in the handling department. I went to visit a buddy out in Colorado and had a chance to drive a PP1 on some fun mountain roads. The rear and front end of this car are completely disconnected. When you turn-in, the rear end comes around sometime later after it feels like it, then you have to adjust the steering (like you were getting oversteer). It made the steering feel totally sloppy when pushing it. It felt like the car had way too much air in the tires and was floating down the road. I even checked the air pressure in the tires to be sure something wasn't wrong. You couple that with the fact that both these cars are heavy for a true sport car, and you end up doing a bunch of weight management as you are negotiating the turns and transitions approaching the limit. And the funny thing is, is when I got back into my rental car (a Maxima), it handled better (in many ways, but not all) on those same roads. The front and rear were not disconnected and the steering was very direct, but the Maxima did have throttle induced pulling from the front wheel drive, and too much understeer.

Now compare that to any version of the Camaro, and it is a big difference. The Camaro has the most instant turn-in and direct steering I have felt, right up there with the best of the M cars. Some folks won't notice if they live in a flat place with no turns (like Florida or many places in the midwest). And some folks just don't care about turns. And if this is you, no worries, everyone has different criteria for the car they want. And I certainly hope you enjoy your Mustang as much as I enjoy my Camaro. But to say that the PP1 handles not too differently from the Camaro, is not objectively true. You may not care, or you may not notice, and that can be true, but the Maxima I drove had less handling issues than the PP1 in many ways, and that was a direct back to back comparison on the same roads.

If I were you, I would look into some of the aftermarket sway bars out there. I would definitely stiffen up the rear quite a bit. Only issue is that the Magnaride was not tuned for this, so you may want to look into a re-tune for that too. I'm not sure how much you can change the stiffness of the swaybar without having to re-tune the Magneride. But a stiffer rear would fix most of the issue I suspect.
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Old 07-01-2020, 01:41 PM   #164
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You are misquoting me. I never said all $73k is due to the name. But you can bet your you know what that a good $5k-10k is due to the name alone. If they offered a $63k Mustang exactly the same as the GT500 but without the name, would you take it? Yeah, me too. Who wouldn't. With Chevy, you never pay for someone's name. And that is just an MSRP discussion. I noticed you never mentioned ADM's that come with the Shelby name. Would there be ADM's without the name? Probably not. Let's face the facts, the vast majority of the GT350's sold with a higher MSRP and ADMs on top for about the same performance as and SS1LE. A ton of the reason was the Shelby name, and the percieved exclusivity (Ford implied that only a certain number would be made, but that turned out to be not true).

I'm not knocking anyone who paid $10k-$20k for that car, it's their money, they can spend it how they like, but I would never do that. I just don't care that much about some old dude from back in the day, no matter how cool he was (like Carroll Shelby or Steve McQueen).




You're missing the context here, my post was a response to someone who said these are toasters. They are not toasters, they are cars, and in terms of performance, Camaro offers the best bang for the buck. Yes, if you want the visibility of a Accord, you won't find it in a Camaro. Nothing wrong with a Accord either.



As a sporty car, no it doesn't suck at all. Yes, it does suck badly in the handling department. I went to visit a buddy out in Colorado and had a chance to drive a PP1 on some fun mountain roads. The rear and front end of this car are completely disconnected. When you turn-in, the rear end comes around sometime later after it feels like it, then you have to adjust the steering (like you were getting oversteer). It made the steering feel totally sloppy when pushing it. It felt like the car had way too much air in the tires and was floating down the road. I even checked the air pressure in the tires to be sure something wasn't wrong. You couple that with the fact that both these cars are heavy for a true sport car, and you end up doing a bunch of weight management as you are negotiating the turns and transitions approaching the limit. And the funny thing is, is when I got back into my rental car (a Maxima), it handled better (in many ways, but not all) on those same roads. The front and rear were not disconnected and the steering was very direct, but the Maxima did have throttle induced pulling from the front wheel drive, and too much understeer.

Now compare that to any version of the Camaro, and it is a big difference. The Camaro has the most instant turn-in and direct steering I have felt, right up there with the best of the M cars. Some folks won't notice if they live in a flat place with no turns (like Florida or many places in the midwest). And some folks just don't care about turns. And if this is you, no worries, everyone has different criteria for the car they want. And I certainly hope you enjoy your Mustang as much as I enjoy my Camaro. But to say that the PP1 handles not too differently from the Camaro, is not objectively true. You may not care, or you may not notice, and that can be true, but the Maxima I drove had less handling issues than the PP1 in many ways, and that was a direct back to back comparison on the same roads.

If I were you, I would look into some of the aftermarket sway bars out there. I would definitely stiffen up the rear quite a bit. Only issue is that the Magnaride was not tuned for this, so you may want to look into a re-tune for that too. I'm not sure how much you can change the stiffness of the swaybar without having to re-tune the Magneride. But a stiffer rear would fix most of the issue I suspect.
You are very correct. Everyone has different criteria's. Those that are not super in-tuned with the handling characteristics of a car or those who do not have a lot of experience will never get what you are trying to say.

Hell, even the word "handling" itself is just thrown out there. To me, handling is a generic term. There is so much detail that goes into "handling" like understeer-oversteer balance, shock damping/curves, G limits, alignment settings, etc. It escapes most people and the average pony/sports car owner.

The other thing at play is what people have been exposed to and what the expectations are. As I have gone thru cars and gotten older, my knowledge and expectations of what a sports car should do well goes up and I understand more of the details behind what makes up those expectations.

And herein-lies the issue at heart, the Pony/sports car is marketed for the masses, not the enthusiastic. You really have to move up to Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. to get away from that. So, the euthusiatic will always be in the minority in these discussions.
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:09 PM   #165
whiteboyblues2001

 
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You are very correct. Everyone has different criteria's. Those that are not super in-tuned with the handling characteristics of a car or those who do not have a lot of experience will never get what you are trying to say.

Hell, even the word "handling" itself is just thrown out there. To me, handling is a generic term. There is so much detail that goes into "handling" like understeer-oversteer balance, shock damping/curves, G limits, alignment settings, etc. It escapes most people and the average pony/sports car owner.

The other thing at play is what people have been exposed to and what the expectations are. As I have gone thru cars and gotten older, my knowledge and expectations of what a sports car should do well goes up and I understand more of the details behind what makes up those expectations.

And herein-lies the issue at heart, the Pony/sports car is marketed for the masses, not the enthusiastic. You really have to move up to Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. to get away from that. So, the euthusiatic will always be in the minority in these discussions.
Very much agreed. To me, when you got in a TRUE sports car, something that is lightweight, two-seat, short wheelbase, like a Porsche or even a 350Z, the steering charactheristics are out of this world. Instantaneous turn-in, laser sharp directness and accuracy, and good road feel. Back in the day, you really had to have a true sports car to experience this. But, then came the BMW M cars. They figured out a way for a heavy four-door sedan with a long wheelbase have steering like a true sports car. This was magic to me. And I am sure it is why the M cars have such a dedicated following that believed it was the "ultimate driving machine". Sports car handling in a luxury sport sedan/coupe. Now, we can have that without paying BMW prices, with a Chevy small block, and upgrades like Magnetic Ride Control.. What's not to like?

One of the best sayings I have heard about the 6th Gen Camaro was from a friend from the BMW club I am in. He said "the 6th Gen Camaro is the best M car they ever built". And I believe him...
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:39 PM   #166
TRZ06

 
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Very much agreed. To me, when you got in a TRUE sports car, something that is lightweight, two-seat, short wheelbase, like a Porsche or even a 350Z, the steering charactheristics are out of this world. Instantaneous turn-in, laser sharp directness and accuracy, and good road feel. Back in the day, you really had to have a true sports car to experience this. But, then came the BMW M cars. They figured out a way for a heavy four-door sedan with a long wheelbase have steering like a true sports car. This was magic to me. And I am sure it is why the M cars have such a dedicated following that believed it was the "ultimate driving machine". Sports car handling in a luxury sport sedan/coupe. Now, we can have that without paying BMW prices, with a Chevy small block, and upgrades like Magnetic Ride Control.. What's not to like?

One of the best sayings I have heard about the 6th Gen Camaro was from a friend from the BMW club I am in. He said "the 6th Gen Camaro is the best M car they ever built". And I believe him...
Completely agree on that statement. The SS 1LE is everything that I was expecting my 16' M3 to be, but wasn't.
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Old 07-01-2020, 03:43 PM   #167
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Good for you - but while the 1LE is a great track car,....


Correction - the 6th gen Camaros are the best in their class at going around a track.... If you are a track rat, then yes, the 1LE makes perfect sense since those other things don't matter. But for most people, they do.
It's far more than that. It's a car that does what you're thinking like it's reading your mind, it's a willing partner and doesn't have to be forced. While great on the track it's also great on the street, cruising on the highway, and on twisty mountain roads. It's a great overall sports car with a little more room inside than most sports cars. Most track cars aren't nearly as practical, versatile and comfortable as the SS 1LE either. I see many Mustang owners valuing other things more than this. That's fine, they are in the majority for sure.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:32 PM   #168
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In regards to your 1LE comments, you are not the target market for the 1LE.

The 1LE IMO was GM's best achievement. For its intended market (performance first and built right) crowd , it hits all its marks. It has all the components needed right out off the box and looks the part. You factor in its cost for performance and it doesn't get much better.

I have had mine for 2 years now and I still love it. I had the 16' M3 prior and hated it after about 3 mths. Granted I am probably in the minority, but for what I was looking for as a car/performance guy, it does not disappoint.

The Alpha chassis IS superior to the Mustang chassis. You know this if you spend any time at 9/10th 10/10ths of the limits in both and throw in some off camber corners, broken pavement mid-corner, etc. The Alpha chassis stays well sorted and composed, which gives drivers confidence. This is the target market for the 1LE

I honestly could give a rats ass of others think of my car, I buy a car for how it makes me feel when driving it, not what others think as I drive by. That fact actually works in my favor because I get a bigger discount off MSRP when I go to sign on the dotted line.

The way I see it is that GM did their homework before hand and produced a great product that didn't need much tweaking, while the others played catch up. Is that the best sales strategy, maybe not, but as a consumer that doesn't have unlimited funds to upgrade every year I would rather buy a proper performance car once.

I learned this lesson the hard way with my M3. The M3 is very similar to the Mustang approach in that regard, BMW put out a underperforming model and makes small changes to try to bandaids its shortcomings, or puts out a "special" model and jack up its price. While someone like me who can't buy a new car every year gets stuck with shit. I suffered 2.5 years until my lease was up on the M3. While a great sales tactic to screw over people, I won't be fooled again. So, for me I will take GM's approach on how they did the 1LE over how Ford does the Mustang.
I'm like you. Special edition and patch job cars don't do squat for me. Give me a properly sorted performance car that is well built and a good value. GM is pretty good about that, they build it right and let it be, don't have to add things or make special editions to perform to people's expectations.

I will say though, that for sales reasons GM could stand to spice things up here and there like Ford and Dodge do. While special edition cars don't anything for me, red line edition gimmicks do even less lol.
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