[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Nsxmatt

I’m the joke? You’re running bone stock mustang Gt times in a modded ZL1. Is be mad at everyone too.

What did you run at the track in your V6 Camaro?

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

Remember, you're on a Camaro forum, so you should expect to get some fighting words when a topic like this comes up, especially if you come out swinging.

Yes, the Mustang GT with PP and Drag Mode can do high 11s under the right conditions. I'll readily admit that, and I even saw one guy on the m6g forum with a timeslip that seems legit.

What's a little fascinating to me is you seem way more into Mustangs than Camaros but own a V6 Camaro?

He's just a troll from M6G. You can't take him serious.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

True. Time will tell. I think they did just about everything they could in GT option package to make it competitive with the 1LE. I honestly don't know if the extra power from the Bullitt would make a difference, so they pulled out all the stops they could. I think that shows how good the Alpha and 1LE package is.

And if it does go into limp mode then agree totally shame on Ford.

Although I don't care if it actually handles on par with the 1LE, I do think they need it to. And I'll say that if the GT really is as good in a straight line as it seems, and if can handle at least halfway decent, and if it can at least run without issues and problems, then I would seriously consider buying one with the A10. I say that, but then I remember all the little things about my 15-17 that pissed me off. It would have to wow me without a doubt. I test drove a 1SS and coming from my FBO 5th Gen SS the 6th Gen SS did not impress me. When I test drove the ZL1 it was in another category altogether. So although I know the GT isn't anywhere close to the ZL1 in performance, it would still have to feel worlds apart from how my 15 GT was. Then and only then would I start talking to a dealership about purchasing one. And it depends on the pricing.

[IOMike]

People will believe what they want and pay attention to only the facts that prove their point.

Personally I think magazine comparisons are reliable because they're same day same location and multiple attpts at getting the best time. Overall best times vs overall best times have some merit.

Stock vs stock they're comparable on acceleration. Chevy handles and drives way better, Ford is a better day to day car.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by shaffe

True. Time will tell. I think they did just about everything they could in GT option package to make it competitive with the 1LE. I honestly don't know if the extra power from the Bullitt would make a difference, so they pulled out all the stops they could. I think that shows how good the Alpha and 1LE package is.

And if it does go into limp mode then agree totally shame on Ford.

I actually wish they would stop pouring the dollars into the handling aspect of the GT, if you want track duty in a Ford grab a GT350 and be done with it. How often will you ever see a GT at a track event? Give the GT what the public wants more power and straight line speed. Think of all the additional money spent to develop and implement the PP2 package, had that money been dumped into a drag package for the GT you would probably have 10x the sales you will vs the PP2. Stop chasing a performance metric for a venue owners will rarely if ever visit. only to try and impress MT + C&D.

Same thing for the SS. Instead of the 1LE how about a drag package. Which do you think would sell better?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by IOMike

People will believe what they want and pay attention to only the facts that prove their point.

Personally I think magazine comparisons are reliable because they're same day same location and multiple attpts at getting the best time. Overall best times vs overall best times have some merit.

Stock vs stock they're comparable on acceleration. Chevy handles and drives way better, Ford is a better day to day car.

Quoted`because T-R-U-T-H

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I actually wish they would stop pouring the dollars into the handling aspect of the GT, if you want track duty in a Ford grab a GT350 and be done with it. How often will you ever see a GT at a track event? Give the GT what the public wants more power and straight line speed. Think of all the additional money spent to develop and implement the PP2 package, had that money been dumped into a drag package for the GT you would probably have 10x the sales you will vs the PP2. Stop chasing a performance metric for a venue owners will rarely if ever visit. only to try and impress MT + C&D.

Same thing for the SS. Instead of the 1LE how about a drag package. Which do you think would sell better?

The part in bold.... Is that sorta “chicken or egg”? Does Ford not focus on handling because people don’t take them to the track or do people not take them to the track because Ford doesn’t seriously address handling? I’m not claiming to know the answer. Probably some aspect of both.

As for Chevy’s approach to the SS, I think it is spot on. SS is an awesome straight line car. If you want a drag monster it is a few tweaks away from that. If you want a track car, SS can handle that well, but if you want track monster, option up to a 1LE.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The part in bold.... Is that sorta “chicken or egg”? Does Ford not focus on handling because people don’t take them to the track or do people not take them to the track because Ford doesn’t seriously address handling? I’m not claiming to know the answer. Probably some aspect of both.

Well, I see GT350's and Boss302's quite a bit, but only an occasional GT. If the PP2 makes for a solid track car off of the showroom floor, I'd bet we will start seeing them at the track too. A road course is unbelievably fun, but it is significantly more expensive than the 1/4 mile track. So, it's not for everyone. And if you have to mod the crap out of your car just to get started, it might be too much of a learning curve for the beginner. And more intermediate/advanced road course drivers won't look to a Mustang as their first choice in a track car unless they put out something like a PP2 and they are into Mustangs. I do like options though, and it will be great so see some PP2's running out there.

The 1/4 mile track is more easily approachable. It doesn't cost much, and you don't really have to mod much of anything as a beginner. It's just much easier to enter into the sport.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I actually wish they would stop pouring the dollars into the handling aspect of the GT, if you want track duty in a Ford grab a GT350 and be done with it. How often will you ever see a GT at a track event? Give the GT what the public wants more power and straight line speed. Think of all the additional money spent to develop and implement the PP2 package, had that money been dumped into a drag package for the GT you would probably have 10x the sales you will vs the PP2. Stop chasing a performance metric for a venue owners will rarely if ever visit. only to try and impress MT + C&D.

Same thing for the SS. Instead of the 1LE how about a drag package. Which do you think would sell better?

Apparently there was very little money spent on the PP2, it was a "skunk works" project. The engineers worked on it on their own time, and borrowed parts from the GT350 when they could. They sold it to management because it cost pretty much nothing relatively speaking.

But there is no question that the Mustang crowd would love a drag package. I think that manufacturers haven't liked to go that route because of warranty issues that may occur. GM will warranty your car as long as it is not a timed event. 1/4 mile is a timed event. But it seems as though all that is changing. Especially with the Demon being built from the ground up as a 1/4 mile car. I think we will see more 1/4 mile track options on these cars as time goes on.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I also don't think they would lie or fudge numbers. But it just seems a bit odd that they couldn't wait that small amount of time before cutting the video. Plus, in and of itself, it isn't anything to even look at. But when there are soo many questions surrounding the GT's quarter mile, then even little stuff begins to look a bit odd. I've never seen this many issues and this much drama over a car being tested as I'm seeing now.

Yeah they didn't edit it out, the lights on the board didn't come on. No RT, no nothing so it was a clocks off run, They are car#8 for the day so someone at the track wanted clocks off. Depending on what day they were there, GLD does have some clocks off events.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Although I don't care if it actually handles on par with the 1LE, I do think they need it to. And I'll say that if the GT really is as good in a straight line as it seems, and if can handle at least halfway decent, and if it can at least run without issues and problems, then I would seriously consider buying one with the A10. I say that, but then I remember all the little things about my 15-17 that pissed me off. It would have to wow me without a doubt. I test drove a 1SS and coming from my FBO 5th Gen SS the 6th Gen SS did not impress me. When I test drove the ZL1 it was in another category altogether. So although I know the GT isn't anywhere close to the ZL1 in performance, it would still have to feel worlds apart from how my 15 GT was. Then and only then would I start talking to a dealership about purchasing one. And it depends on the pricing.

I don't blame you. If I had a ton of issues with a car, it would take a hell of a lot to get me back into the same thing.

Originally Posted by newmoon

I actually wish they would stop pouring the dollars into the handling aspect of the GT, if you want track duty in a Ford grab a GT350 and be done with it. How often will you ever see a GT at a track event? Give the GT what the public wants more power and straight line speed. Think of all the additional money spent to develop and implement the PP2 package, had that money been dumped into a drag package for the GT you would probably have 10x the sales you will vs the PP2. Stop chasing a performance metric for a venue owners will rarely if ever visit. only to try and impress MT + C&D.

Same thing for the SS. Instead of the 1LE how about a drag package. Which do you think would sell better?

It's clear to me this is just cross town rivalry. People forget that when the Camaro first came back, the Mustang was the better handler. In 11 Motor trend compared the GT to a BMW. Then came the Boss 302 cars that really put a emphasis on handling. Then GM came and knocked it out of the park with the 1LE, ZL1, and Z/28 and sent Ford back to the drawing board.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The part in bold.... Is that sorta “chicken or egg”? Does Ford not focus on handling because people don’t take them to the track or do people not take them to the track because Ford doesn’t seriously address handling? I’m not claiming to know the answer. Probably some aspect of both.

As for Chevy’s approach to the SS, I think it is spot on. SS is an awesome straight line car. If you want a drag monster it is a few tweaks away from that. If you want a track car, SS can handle that well, but if you want track monster, option up to a 1LE.

I think they do put an emphasis on handling, just in recent years GM has really handed it to Ford in that arena.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Well, I see GT350's and Boss302's quite a bit, but only an occasional GT. If the PP2 makes for a solid track car off of the showroom floor, I'd bet we will start seeing them at the track too. A road course is unbelievably fun, but it is significantly more expensive than the 1/4 mile track. So, it's not for everyone. And if you have to mod the crap out of your car just to get started, it might be too much of a learning curve for the beginner. And more intermediate/advanced road course drivers won't look to a Mustang as their first choice in a track car unless they put out something like a PP2 and they are into Mustangs. I do like options though, and it will be great so see some PP2's running out there.

The 1/4 mile track is more easily approachable. It doesn't cost much, and you don't really have to mod much of anything as a beginner. It's just much easier to enter into the sport.

Agreed. I would have loved to gone out on a road course, but there wasn't one super close by when I had my Mustang and it's a lot more $. When I was racing competitively, I could have a whole track day for about 100 bucks with the chance of winning some money. Or if I just wanted to test n tune that was maybe 50 bucks depending on how much food was consumed lol.

[SpeedIsLife]

The magazines history with the Camaro is kind of a mess.

For the 2010 MY (in 2009) they praised it. For the 2011 MY (2010) they started kind of ripping on it (in fact one magazine actually placed the SRT8 Challenger over it) and in 2012 the bloom was very much off the rose.

2013 kind of changed it back to the stronger side with the 1LE and ZL1, etc..but it never quite got back to the heaping praise it had in 2010.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

The magazines history with the Camaro is kind of a mess.

For the 2010 MY (in 2009) they praised it. For the 2011 MY (2010) they started kind of ripping on it (in fact one magazine actually placed the SRT8 Challenger over it) and in 2012 the bloom was very much off the rose.

2013 kind of changed it back to the stronger side with the 1LE and ZL1, etc..but it never quite got back to the heaping praise it had in 2010.

The thing all the magazines missed (or just didn't care to review) was the fact that the SS got revised suspension in 2013 which helped a lot to cure its "sloppy handling". There's evidence of this in MotorTrend's review of the 2013 hot wheels Camaro. Even with taller, heavier 21" wheels, they mentioned how the Camaro handled better than previously but made no mention of why.....and I quote:

With 20-inch wheels standard Camaro SS fare, we expected the larger 21-linch wheels to hurt ride quality on the street and performance at the track. To our surprise, the Hot Wheels Camaro rode comfortably on all but the most pitted roads. Motor Trend testing director Kim Reynolds was surprised by how easy it was to push around the figure eight compared with those other Camaros, noting confident and balanced handling with minimal understeer and strong brakes. When it was all said and done, the special edition Camaro posted 0.95 g on the skidpad and lapped the figure eight in 24.7 seconds at 0.81 g average.

Its like they were just surprised it handled better.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

The thing all the magazines missed (or just didn't care to review) was the fact that the SS got revised suspension in 2013 which helped a lot to cure its "sloppy handling". There's evidence of this in MotorTrend's review of the 2013 hot wheels Camaro. Even with taller, heavier 21" wheels, they mentioned how the Camaro handled better than previously but made no mention of why.....and I quote:



Its like they were just surprised it handled better.

Yup..

It's because except for the 1LE/ZL1 and Z/28..the later years of the Gen5 Camaro were just used as a whipping post for the auto rags. The Camaro became a dramatically better car in 2013, but like you said..they either ignored it or thought it was just some magical transformation.

It's part of the reason I don't give ANY of the rags the time of day..because they're so fickle and flighty.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The part in bold.... Is that sorta “chicken or egg”? Does Ford not focus on handling because people don’t take them to the track or do people not take them to the track because Ford doesn’t seriously address handling? I’m not claiming to know the answer. Probably some aspect of both.

As for Chevy’s approach to the SS, I think it is spot on. SS is an awesome straight line car. If you want a drag monster it is a few tweaks away from that. If you want a track car, SS can handle that well, but if you want track monster, option up to a 1LE.

I think it might have been more that people weren't going because the Mustang's deficiencies. I say that because after all this time, the Mustang is only getting PP2 stuff in response to the awesome handling capabilities of the SS and SS 1LE. I don't think Ford had any intentions of making the Mustang handle better. And the fact that the PP2 is only for the GT while the Camaro offers 1LE across the entire lineup also tells me that this is more of a response from Ford. Also that Ford didn't themselves create the package but it took a team of people who came up with it after hours and presented it to Ford...that is the real deciding factor.

I seriously think Ford got caught with their pants down and had to scramble to get the 18 GT up to snuff. They brought out the S550 with the intention of beating or keeping up with the 5th Gen Camaro and they didn't expect that GM would be swinging for the fences with the 6th Gen Camaro. Which is why the 18s need to be a home run.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think it might have been more that people weren't going because the Mustang's deficiencies. I say that because after all this time, the Mustang is only getting PP2 stuff in response to the awesome handling capabilities of the SS and SS 1LE. I don't think Ford had any intentions of making the Mustang handle better. And the fact that the PP2 is only for the GT while the Camaro offers 1LE across the entire lineup also tells me that this is more of a response from Ford. Also that Ford didn't themselves create the package but it took a team of people who came up with it after hours and presented it to Ford...that is the real deciding factor.

I seriously think Ford got caught with their pants down and had to scramble to get the 18 GT up to snuff. They brought out the S550 with the intention of beating or keeping up with the 5th Gen Camaro and they didn't expect that GM would be swinging for the fences with the 6th Gen Camaro. Which is why the 18s need to be a home run.

Good analysis. (That’s French for “pretty much what I was thinking )

I think Ford and GM took different approaches to track capability, and maybe Ford misread GM’s strategy a little bit. Ford strategy is...”You want a track car? We got that. But it’s gonna cost you a pretty penny. Here’s the GT350”. GM’s approach is ...”You want a track car? It’s called Camaro. Oh...you’re serious about this...check the 1LE box. Oh...you live and breathe this stuff...let me show you the ZL1”.

For cars with relatively low volume (anything under 100k), GM probably over-delivered on the track capable variants, whereas Ford just made sure they had one. A damn good one (GT350), but still, only one.`

I’ll go one step further and say that with Mark Reuss and Dan Amann positioned at the top of the company, GM has a couple of track rats that understand how trackability translates to everyday fun to drive (not to be confused with everyday comfortable to drive).