[newb]

All this talk of engine choices and ZL1 Ring times got me started thinking. We fully expect the ZL1 to beat the 5th gen Z/28 ring time. The 5th gen ZL1 had more hp than the Z/28 but considerably less grip (aero and tire). My question is this, competitors vehicles aside, how much power will it take to beat the ZL1 around the ring? And can it be achieved NA in production form?

The Camaro team clearly sees they need for big aero and massive super sticky tires. A 75 hp difference was easily trumped by decent aero and massive sticky tires. But can the aero and tire package, which will hurt straight line speeds, be enough to overcome a 100+ hp deficit?

Looking at it from an in house competition more than a cross brand competition, I think the ZL1 will be the Z/28s closest rival (as far as ring times are concerned and yes I know the GT350R time was never officially revealed).

I think even with the lighter platform, there will need to be some weight loss and 550+ hp to beat the ZL1. That HP advantage will be hard to overcome when the ZL1 will handle very well also.

[Bhobbs]

The ZL1 will out accelerate the Z/28 but the Z/28 will carry more speed in and out of turns and brake later.

I have a feeling the two will run similar Ring times. The ZL1 will run away in the straights but the Z/28 will make up ground in the turns.

My understanding is the wing set up creates less drag than the spoiler types, so I'm not sure how much top speed it will give up.

[Sidedraft]

It could very well be that the ZL1 is meant to be the range-topping trim level for the 6th gen Camaro, even though it will be released before the Z/28.

Or -- if the Z/28 has to be the highest trim level -- rather than try to make a Z/28 faster than a ZL1 by handicapping it (has to be NA, has to have ~550 HP), would it make more sense to just start with the ZL1 as the base car and add more speed (carbon ceramics, aero, tires, etc)?

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Sidedraft

It could very well be that the ZL1 is meant to be the range-topping trim level for the 6th gen Camaro, even though it will be released before the Z/28.

Or -- if the Z/28 has to be the highest trim level -- rather than try to make a Z/28 faster than a ZL1 by handicapping it (has to be NA, has to have ~550 HP), would it make more sense to just start with the ZL1 as the base car and add more speed (carbon ceramics, aero, tires, etc)?

I think they're building the Z/28 around the LT4 this gen. Start with the Lt4 and add true track tuned suspension and aero. Add big grip and big brakes. Cut out all the unnecessary weight and voila Z/28

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by Sidedraft

It could very well be that the ZL1 is meant to be the range-topping trim level for the 6th gen Camaro, even though it will be released before the Z/28.

Or -- if the Z/28 has to be the highest trim level -- rather than try to make a Z/28 faster than a ZL1 by handicapping it (has to be NA, has to have ~550 HP), would it make more sense to just start with the ZL1 as the base car and add more speed (carbon ceramics, aero, tires, etc)?

As an owner of both cars in their Gen5 variant I will never say the Z/28 is the top of the food chain for the Camaro. The ZL1 is too balanced to be 2nd to the track focused Z/28. While the Z/28 may cost more (or did when I bought it), IMHO the ZL1 is top of the Camaro food chain in the Gen5. It simply is better at more things than the Z/28 and a very close 2nd in the one area the Z/28 accels.

As for the performance of the newer versions of the cars, the ring WILL NOT give us any indication of the performance improvements over the Gen5 nor versus many of the other cars that have tested there because the ring has undergone extensive updates to the track since the Gen5 and most of the other cars ran there. If you remember, there was this big noise about the GT350 besting the Z/28 times at the ring YET Ford never really made to much noise about it because the track updates made the times incomparable. So, I would be looking to VIR for the new numbers that are comparable to the Gen5 and other cars:

To review, the Z/28 ran VIR in 2:50.9 and the ZL1 ran it in 2:57.5 in Gen5.

I think we will see the Gen6 ZL1 come in @ 2:46'ish and the Z/28 (if that is what we are seeing and is a radical as I hope with CF wheels and option for rear seat delete, etc. somewhere in the 2:42'ish (the 2015 Z06 ran it in 2:41.3). Could be way off but I would think that is where GM would like to see thing fall.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Thor142

I think they're building the Z/28 around the LT4 this gen. Start with the Lt4 and add true track tuned suspension and aero. Add big grip and big brakes. Cut out all the unnecessary weight and voila Z/28

Except Team Camaro said a supercharged engine doesn't belong in the Z/28, which is why we have the ZL1.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

As an owner of both cars in their Gen5 variant I will never say the Z/28 is the top of the food chain for the Camaro. The ZL1 is too balanced to be 2nd to the track focused Z/28. While the Z/28 may cost more (or did when I bought it), IMHO the ZL1 is top of the Camaro food chain in the Gen5. It simply is better at more things than the Z/28 and a very close 2nd in the one area the Z/28 accels.

As for the performance of the newer versions of the cars, the ring WILL NOT give us any indication of the performance improvements over the Gen5 nor versus many of the other cars that have tested there because the ring has undergone extensive updates to the track since the Gen5 and most of the other cars ran there. If you remember, there was this big noise about the GT350 besting the Z/28 times at the ring YET Ford never really made to much noise about it because the track updates made the times incomparable. So, I would be looking to VIR for the new numbers that are comparable to the Gen5 and other cars:

To review, the Z/28 ran VIR in 2:50.9 and the ZL1 ran it in 2:57.5 in Gen5.

I think we will see the Gen6 ZL1 come in @ 2:46'ish and the Z/28 (if that is what we are seeing and is a radical as I hope with CF wheels and option for rear seat delete, etc. somewhere in the 2:42'ish (the 2015 Z06 ran it in 2:41.3). Could be way off but I would think that is where GM would like to see thing fall.

They have the 5th gen Z/28 back at the ring with all the new stuff. I'm presuming to get benchmark lap times with the new track set up to compare to the gen6 cars. It's a great reference because the ring is so long and demanding it really shows the disparity between the performance of models. It's (or was) over 12 miles long. VIR is never going to replace ring times.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Except Team Camaro said a supercharged engine doesn't belong in the Z/28, which is why we have the ZL1.

When? In 2013? Did they say it since gen 6? Didn't team corvette say that a supercharger didn't belong in the Z06 and make a bunch of people butt hurt too? Hey if it's a new HIPO NA that's awesome. I just don't see it. The future of hp is FI

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Thor142

When? In 2013? Did they say it since gen 6? Didn't team corvette say that a supercharger didn't belong in the Z06 and make a bunch of people butt hurt too? Hey if it's a new HIPO NA that's awesome. I just don't see it. The future of hp is FI

Team Corvette never said that, as far as I know.

People got upset, and for good reason. The Z06 has had it's fair share of issues with the LT4.

Making two separate models with the same engine makes no sense.

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by Thor142

They have the 5th gen Z/28 back at the ring with all the new stuff. I'm presuming to get benchmark lap times with the new track set up to compare to the gen6 cars. It's a great reference because the ring is so long and demanding it really shows the disparity between the performance of models. It's (or was) over 12 miles long. VIR is never going to replace ring times.

Has anyone ever written anything you agree with?

The Ring times are not relevant to previous times prior to the resurfacing and redesign of the track was the intent of my post. If you want a better historical perspective on the Gen6 versus prior times of other cars your best baseline is VIR or LS. VIR is a better track to use because it is more indicative of the type of tracks in the USA which is where the Camaro is mostly run, ie: The Continental Racing Series.

[Zeke.Malvo]

I still think the Ring is a rediculous track to compare. It's just too long. Miss judge one turn and you have to drive a full 12 miles to start over. With a smaller track, you're much more likely to have a full clean lap.

[Sven59]

It must be because everyone tests their cars there.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by Sven59

It must be because everyone tests their cars there.

Right, and testing is great there with all the variations. But comparing the actual times is just too difficult IMO.

[newb]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

Right, and testing is great there with all the variations. But comparing the actual times is just too difficult IMO.

Best lap time is the best lap time. Regardless of the length of the track. These guys are capable of finishing short tracks consistently within tenths of seconds of their best lap and a track like the ring within a second. Repeatedly! Driver error is not a factor in the published times anymore than Any other track.