[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by EJR8402

So, design something that looks like a Nissan Rogue, throw in a powerful electric motor, make it self-driving, and slap a Camaro emblem on it and then you'd be satisfied?

Sounds like you need to be driving something other than a Camaro.

Being satisfied doesn't matter. Chevy and GM are businesses that do things that make money. This isn't a passion project for them. This isn't some kind of private business that the creator makes something they want and doesn't care if anyone else likes it.

There is no market for pony cars .... There is a market for more stupid CUV's and SUV's. Brands are costly and valuable. Wasting them is a bad business move. Ford (and mitsu and others) knows what's up. Chevy is just run by idiots.

Pretending like they care about the name like us enthusiasts do is where you are going wrong. They dont. So dont get more attached and defensive than those who actually own the thing are.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Ford just doesn't get it. Its not just the speed, its the sound, the thumping of power, the vibration, the mechanicals of it all. Again...whats more exciting and visceral to look at or be in the presents of...a twin engine diesel pulling 100 cars at 50 mph down a RR track or an electric subway train carry 1000 passengers from one stop to another at 75 mph? I think we can all say a roaring diesel or locomotive train will catch the attention of a young lad. The hum of an electric subway train that same young lad couldn't give a sh!t one way or the other. I just wish car companies would just stop trying to force electric vehicles down our throats. We don't want them!! So get over it!!

[caSStro18]

Like someone else said, it’s about the bottom line for major auto makers. They will do whatever makes them the most money. Period. Auto makers like Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc. can afford to continue producing high performance IC engine sports cars. That’s because they have a smaller market to please. However, even those companies are experimenting with EV vehicles. All that said, however, it will still be a long time until the only vehicles available to purchase are electric. We simply don’t have the infrastructure in place to support these vehicles on a large scale. I’m just glad I bought my Camaro when I did just in case it is the last generation of Camaro with an IC engine!

[CamaroRSOnt]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

1.5% of 90 million is 1.35 million sold per year.

If you add up mustang, camaro, and charger sales numbers that's :220,000 (half of that is just charger sales)

So EV sales dwarf pony car sales by over 500%.

So by that logic, the only thing keeping muscle/pony cars relevant at all is that they have been around longer ...but that's very temporary. But obviously, pony cars are more of a niche not worth serious consideration by anyone when you look at the sales numbers.

First your equating that 1.5% at the world level of sales for EV's, most Camaro's, Mustangs etc. are sold in North America. NA sales are about 19m vehicles in a typical year. Tesla sold 367k vehicles world wide last year, most of those the Model 3 as the S and X model sales declined dramatically. Tesla lost $862m last year despite all the cross subsidies they see on their cars.


The big 3 still make money on the Mustangs etc., the EV sellers not so much. The biggest portion of EV sales is actually hybrid vehicles in North America and the EU. Pure EV sales by the big 3 are loss leaders, they lose money on every one of them. Many of those worldwide sales of EV's are also micro cars sold in China, the size of smart cars, made for two people. The reason they sell is that China forces them on folks thru licensing restrictions in major cities as well as subsidizing their purchase.


Reality is if you look back 5 yrs actual EV sales to forecast back then have been extremely disappointing , Obama in 2015 projected twice as many on the road by now. The public just isn't buying. The media distorts the picture on EV sales, sales of EV's sagged last year from 2018 , no one is making any money on them. It isn't going so well but you would never know it with all the hype by the media.


Tesla shows an occasional quarterly profit but that is derived by some fancy bookkeeping and ZEV credits. GM, Ford etc. have to pay for ZEV credits to sell their IC cars in certain areas like California. The big 3 are forced to buy those ZEV credits from Tesla , amounts to hundreds of millions of additional subsidies to the EV manufacturer aside from all the other subsidies those cars see when sold. Tesla gets subsidies at all levels of the process yet still has yet to make an annual profit.

[chevybill]

The manufacturers exist because someone buys their products.
They are producing cars and trucks that the public is buying.
As previously mentioned, EV's numbers are laging behind predictions.
Much of the USA is thinly populated and no infrastructure for EV's.
I feel I C engines will always be produced, as far as the next 50 years.
Too many people in too many positions of power are profiting from the I C
model. The electric car has failed once already.

If the automobile industry can relegate the railroad industry like they did in early 20th century, I think the E V will be a novelty at best for quite some time. Too much profit being made from the current I C engine transportation model.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by CamaroRSOnt

First your equating that 1.5% at the world level of sales for EV's, most Camaro's, Mustangs etc. are sold in North America. NA sales are about 19m vehicles in a typical year. Tesla sold 367k vehicles world wide last year, most of those the Model 3 as the S and X model sales declined dramatically. Tesla lost $862m last year despite all the cross subsidies they see on their cars.

Nobody buys pony cars outside of the US. You're talking a couple thousand more maybe worldwide including canada and mexico.


Tesla is still spending tons of cash _expanding_ ... It's not that they're selling each car at a loss, it's that part of the cost they have to make up is the massive infrastructure growth needed ...which will be recouped since once it's built it doesn't need to be re-built every year.



And tesla isn't the only electric car being built. But just looking at model 3's. They sold more of those than all 3 main pony cars combined.

So however popular you think mustang and camaro and chargers are, tesla's are more popular. They just dont have 20 years of older cars on the road yet to look it.

The big 3 still make money on the Mustangs etc., the EV sellers not so much. The biggest portion of EV sales is actually hybrid vehicles in North America and the EU. Pure EV sales by the big 3 are loss leaders, they lose money on every one of them. Many of those worldwide sales of EV's are also micro cars sold in China, the size of smart cars, made for two people. The reason they sell is that China forces them on folks thru licensing restrictions in major cities as well as subsidizing their purchase.

Reality is if you look back 5 yrs actual EV sales to forecast back then have been extremely disappointing , Obama in 2015 projected twice as many on the road by now. The public just isn't buying. The media distorts the picture on EV sales, sales of EV's sagged last year from 2018 , no one is making any money on them. It isn't going so well but you would never know it with all the hype by the media.

All cars have a depressing outlook in the market. Electric cars still being limited to high density areas where those markets have been hit the hardest in demand (since they're also the places where cars are the least actual necessity due to public transit availability). So I would look at that data as less that people dont want cars...and more that those people who would normally have purchased one, decided not to purchase anything ...or purchased used cars at a much lower cost. It's not like ICE is eating electric's lunch. They're all getting hammered.

Tesla shows an occasional quarterly profit but that is derived by some fancy bookkeeping and ZEV credits. GM, Ford etc. have to pay for ZEV credits to sell their IC cars in certain areas like California. The big 3 are forced to buy those ZEV credits from Tesla , amounts to hundreds of millions of additional subsidies to the EV manufacturer aside from all the other subsidies those cars see when sold. Tesla gets subsidies at all levels of the process yet still has yet to make an annual profit.

Dont talk to me about the viability of GM and Ford and others. It's not like we didn't have to keep GM from going bankrupt and bought in pieces by their competitors in the last decade. Ford managed to avoid the same bailout just barely. They all get subsidized at the local and state level to various degrees by agreeing to exist in a given location. Oil itself gets subsidized.

And out of those various companies, they're all incentivized to draw out selling ICE vehicles as long as they can before switching to electric...and any new company that isn't incentivized to do so finds out just how high of a barrier to entry a car company has by incumbent companies ...especially when you have to operate thru a dealer franchise system that further increases the initial cost to any given company looking to make a start.

You can pretend companies are shoving electric down your throat all you want. The fact is, people dont care if the car is powered by electric or gasoline. The majority of people hate driving. They hate traveling with other people more though. So driving is a necessary evil and whatever is cheapest and the least maintenance having is going to win. And we are not only over the border where that's beginning to be true for electric even without tax writeoffs, but the whole range anxiety is approaching moot as well for the vast majority of drivers.

There is no all powerful electric goblin forcing companies to do it's bidding. If anything, the existing companies want to keep that away from the public as long as they can because it is less profitable in the long run to have things that dont break down as much or require as much service. We're seeing popularity and interest (if not so much the actual buying) because the people want it.

Just like we have a bunch of CUV's and SUV's and trucks dominating current car sales. It's not because companies think they're better or because the right wing demands we all drive trucks for Merica. It's because the people want that garbage despite them not being fun or interesting vehicles for driving on roads.

So the same stupid public that wants and is getting CUV's and SUV's and such is going to result in all vehicles moving to electric for the same reasons. We can only hope that at least some of what's offered tries to be fun because we're not a big enough market to make them change.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by chevybill

The manufacturers exist because someone buys their products.
They are producing cars and trucks that the public is buying.
As previously mentioned, EV's numbers are laging behind predictions.
Much of the USA is thinly populated and no infrastructure for EV's.
I feel I C engines will always be produced, as far as the next 50 years.
Too many people in too many positions of power are profiting from the I C
model. The electric car has failed once already.

If the automobile industry can relegate the railroad industry like they did in early 20th century, I think the E V will be a novelty at best for quite some time. Too much profit being made from the current I C engine transportation model.

Even if you think big oil and ice manufacturers in the US are too powerful, they aren't the same players and the same laws in all other countries.

if china starts selling the world a 1st class electric car that is basically better in every way to anything available in the US... no amount of entrenchment is going to save domestic companies from that public demand.

Domestic car makers thought the same thing back in the 80's about japanese cars and lost huge due to that crap. At least for now, the US is still kinda controlled by the people so what the people want, they will get.. Being rich and entrenched only gets you so far.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Ford just doesn't get it. Its not just the speed, its the sound, the thumping of power, the vibration, the mechanicals of it all. Again...whats more exciting and visceral to look at or be in the presents of...a twin engine diesel pulling 100 cars at 50 mph down a RR track or an electric subway train carry 1000 passengers from one stop to another at 75 mph? I think we can all say a roaring diesel or locomotive train will catch the attention of a young lad. The hum of an electric subway train that same young lad couldn't give a sh!t one way or the other. I just wish car companies would just stop trying to force electric vehicles down our throats. We don't them!! So get over it!!

Lol so if GM has just made the Gen6 more thumping Rather than the best performing car in the segment they they would be The sales leader? If the Gen6 were heavier and getting trounce at either track this place would be on fire.

Performance matters. The emotional stuff only holds if you are performing.

[B8TTYVILLEKID]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

I don't care if it runs 4 sec 1/4 miles, it's ugly and shouldn't have the Mustang nameplate on it. Looks like a CRV and a Civic had a lovechild. This crapfest CUV addiction needs to end.

Is that a "maybe"

[cellsafemode]

If you were doing 225 mph in a quarter mile race (and that's just the avg speed if you could do 1/4 in 4 seconds) in a grocery getter street legal ugly CUV/SUV that also could drive around with 200+ mile ranges and not get pulled over by cops due to noise and making people pass out from gas fumes from an obviously stroked out non-catted big block, You wouldn't care if they called it a Ford Challenger Yenko. If it was less than a corvette, you'd buy one.

[supersportss]

aint nobody got time fo lectric mustangs.

[ZX-10R]

How many laps can it do at VIR before the batteries are toast?

They never tell you that part, just one off drag times

[CamaroBody]

Tesla has been working on a track variant and is already light years ahead of Ford







.

[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Lol so if GM has just made the Gen6 more thumping Rather than the best performing car in the segment they they would be The sales leader? If the Gen6 were heavier and getting trounce at either track this place would be on fire.

Performance matters. The emotional stuff only holds if you are performing.

LOL...you have way to many ..."ifs"
Down with Electric. Make Gas Great Again!!