[Vtor_ZL1]

If you came in off the track and immediately parked the car, you might have boiled the fluid in the calipers.


Best practice is to drive around pits a bit to allow 5-10 minutes for rotors to cool off and not heat soak the pads in a stationary position.


Not sure if that matters in camaro, but that is something I was taught to do when brakes measured measly 10" in diameter and calipers were single piston.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Vtor_ZL1

If you came in off the track and immediately parked the car, you might have boiled the fluid in the calipers.


Best practice is to drive around pits a bit to allow 5-10 minutes for rotors to cool off and not heat soak the pads in a stationary position.


Not sure if that matters in camaro, but that is something I was taught to do when brakes measured measly 10" in diameter and calipers were single piston.

Good to know, so it could happen after the hardest lap... having said that, I do a cool down lap, then I drive in the parking lots for a minute or so, then I pull out the fans once I park it... And because of the Girodisc veined rotors and upgraded brake air deflectors I would think that would be enough cool down...

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

I wish I could remember what the pedal felt like, I don't recall it going to the floor, I think I would have remembered that... all I remember for sure is the car not wanting to stop and me worrying about crashing...

When they bleed the brakes they will let me know how the fluid looks, if it looks burnt then I'm gonna guess it's over heating STILL, however the fact that this happened on the 1st hard hot lap of the 4th session of the day has me very confused, I would think it would have faded/failed at the end of one of the first three sessions...

Having said all that, if it is Icemode, there semms to be some things that contradict that

- I'm not AutoX and that's where this seems to be happening the most by far
- I'm definitely not getting any wheel spin before braking since I'm going 170km/h
- The tires are warmed up enough to have good grip, they are not cold like at the start of the 1st session or after lunch break...
- And the pavement at the track I go to is near perfect
- It doesn't seem to be repeatable... I never know when it's going to happen

I posted my '19+ EBCM upgrade on fb and got a response from one guy that after a couple years of practice he started experiencing ice mode on fairly regularly on track even with OEM tires. You have a modified '18 ZL1 and have been tracking for a while, imo it's certainly possible.

If the pedal didn't go the floor it's VERY likely it's the ABS system interfering. If it's the ABS system you can either figure out how to drive around it, change to a more stock setup to reduce it's occurrence, upgrade to a '19+ EBCM or get a ZLE.

Also just to be clear I think there's both ice-mode, which happens because of a difference in wheel speed right to left, or the combination of braking and steering angle exceeds the system's limits. ice mode can happen when the car is unsettled, the other can happen on perfectly smooth surfaces without the car being upset at all.

[N Camarolina]

Copying my message here as I didn't realize there were two threads currently running on ICE mode:

To the OP. I looked at your video. It didn't look like you had very much steering dialed in when you went to the brakes, but you did dial in quite a lot of brake considering you were just starting the turn into the apex and attempting to dial in more steering.

Seems like from what we are taught in HPDE, if you really needed to burn off that much speed, you would normally want to be doing it sooner before corner entry so that you are, at most, trailing the brakes into the apex (not 3 red bars as you were attempting). Perhaps your tires have enough traction to brake that aggressively at corner entry yet keep the back end behind you, but I'd bet the ABS wasn't programmed with those performance parameters in mind.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I posted my '19+ EBCM upgrade on fb and got a response from one guy that after a couple years of practice he started experiencing ice mode on fairly regularly on track even with OEM tires. You have a modified '18 ZL1 and have been tracking for a while, imo it's certainly possible.

If the pedal didn't go the floor it's VERY likely it's the ABS system interfering. If it's the ABS system you can either figure out how to drive around it, change to a more stock setup to reduce it's occurrence, upgrade to a '19+ EBCM or get a ZLE.

Also just to be clear I think there's both ice-mode, which happens because of a difference in wheel speed right to left, or the combination of braking and steering angle exceeds the system's limits. ice mode can happen when the car is unsettled, the other can happen on perfectly smooth surfaces without the car being upset at all.

I think I’ll start with the upgrade to the 2019 EBCM for sure!

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

Copying my message here as I didn't realize there were two threads currently running on ICE mode:

To the OP. I looked at your video. It didn't look like you had very much steering dialed in when you went to the brakes, but you did dial in quite a lot of brake considering you were just starting the turn into the apex and attempting to dial in more steering.

Seems like from what we are taught in HPDE, if you really needed to burn off that much speed, you would normally want to be doing it sooner before corner entry so that you are, at most, trailing the brakes into the apex (not 3 red bars as you were attempting). Perhaps your tires have enough traction to brake that aggressively at corner entry yet keep the back end behind you, but I'd bet the ABS wasn't programmed with those performance parameters in mind.

Yes I would agree with you regarding my driving on this corner this particular time and the braking force applied vs corner steering angle, But the ABS should not be programmed to then cause you to lose brakes and almost have you hit a barrier because someone doesn’t drive perfectly and drives too hard once and a while, that’s what happens when you are pushing a car on a corner you’re very comfortable with and your a human being

In other words, let it let me make a mistake but leave my brakes alone instead of compounding the problem haha this is also probably why I wasn’t initially sure if my brakes were the cause of this because I did have good braking force until sometime around the start of the turn in

I’ll have to find my other videos to determine when the brakes started failing me but I recall it happening immediately instead of partway through the braking zone and entering the corner turn in

[N Camarolina]

Agreed, but the ABS is getting confused into thinking you are on ice based on the telemetry it's seeing and how it's been programmed.

I think in previous threads on ABS ICE mode, there was the thought that it might be caused by a very quick transition off throttle to threshold breaking, and possibly exacerbated by doing so as cresting a hill and/or running non-OEM wheel sizes or brake pads.

The suggested work around was to slightly slow the brake pedal application (quickly roll onto the brake and be sure you are not stabbing it). I think others have said that the problem went away when they focused on the revised braking approach. Then again, from your video, it's clear you did in fact roll onto the brake rather than stabbing (albeit right after cresting a hill, so the rear end was already light before you got on the brakes)

Good luck in sorting it out. I track mine as well and can imagine the anxiety this would cause if you feel like you can't trust the brakes. Sometimes computers can be our enemy.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

Agreed, but the ABS is getting confused into thinking you are on ice based on the telemetry it's seeing and how it's been programmed.

I think in previous threads on ABS ICE mode, there was the thought that it might be caused by a very quick transition off throttle to threshold breaking, and possibly exacerbated by doing so as cresting a hill and/or running non-OEM wheel sizes or brake pads.

The suggested work around was to slightly slow the brake pedal application (quickly roll onto the brake and be sure you are not stabbing it). I think others have said that the problem went away when they focused on the revised braking approach.

Good luck in sorting it out. I track mine as well and can imagine the anxiety this would cause if you feel like you can't trust the brakes.

Thanks I appreciate it!
I’m going to try the EBCM first and go from there in the in the hopes I don’t have to change my driving style and hope for the best

[carguy55]

I always bleed my own but getting it done professional including the ABS module by a skilled tech can really help get any air out.

[Katech_Zach]

What tire sizes are you running front to rear, and did you adjust rear tire size in your tune?

We have a road race customer that is running a new full alcon big brake kit, pagid rst pads, good fluid, etc.... Had severe ice mode to begin with. He had square stance wheels on the car before, and switched to factory style staggered setup. 95% of his ice mode issue went away from correcting his front to rear tire ratio issue.

Another option: With someone that knows what they are doing, you can buy a later model ABS module and it should plug in, and then you go in and have to resync it with the rest of the car. The newer ABS modules have revised ice mode strategies.

I would first look into tire sizes (front to rear tire height ratios need to be close to stock), second check the tune to make sure its accurate for tire size, third make sure you have an abs friendly pad compound, maybe if you run a slightly less aggressive rear pad it might be happier.

[SATINSTEEL1LE]

I mean I looked at the video and it seems you are straight up coming in too hot for the tires and compensating with braking. You need to scrub a little speed before you get that deep into the turn. Trail braking is one thing but you are HARD on the brakes because of late braking. I bet in the hands of a more seasoned racer, they wouldnt have the same issues.

I think you need to focus on being smoother. Meaning tap the brake well before the turn to scrub some speed, then you can take the corner without upsetting the car so much as well as standing on the brakes. You understeered like a mofo there and even without decent brakes that tells me you were pushing it way too hard going into the corner.

You might want to try a stickier tire if you are pushing that hard. You are just overusing the brakes.

None of what I said was intended to offend you. Just offering my opinion as a seasoned autox and track day guy. You have the balls and the want, but your equipment is failing you basically. If you change that technique it might not feel as fast, but smooth doesnt always feel fast. Your times will reflect it though.

[khcoaching]

I'm running a square set up with a slightly smaller diameter tire than stock, ZLE front calipers and Ferodo 3.12 pads on Giro rotors. I have seen more than 2000psi on data and no ice mode. That said, much has to do with how you apply the brakes initially and how warmed up your tires are. I can induce ABS if I want, with not warmed up tires (especially 3Rs) or too aggressive of an initial brake application.

Ken

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Katech_Zach

What tire sizes are you running front to rear, and did you adjust rear tire size in your tune?

We have a road race customer that is running a new full alcon big brake kit, pagid rst pads, good fluid, etc.... Had severe ice mode to begin with. He had square stance wheels on the car before, and switched to factory style staggered setup. 95% of his ice mode issue went away from correcting his front to rear tire ratio issue.

Another option: With someone that knows what they are doing, you can buy a later model ABS module and it should plug in, and then you go in and have to resync it with the rest of the car. The newer ABS modules have revised ice mode strategies.

I would first look into tire sizes (front to rear tire height ratios need to be close to stock), second check the tune to make sure its accurate for tire size, third make sure you have an abs friendly pad compound, maybe if you run a slightly less aggressive rear pad it might be happier.

I am running the ZL1 1LE set up for wheels and tires 305 front and 325 rears in 19", this time with Trofeo R's for the first time (usually SC3R's)

Definitely going to do the EBCM upgrade/change for sure

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by SATINSTEEL1LE

I mean I looked at the video and it seems you are straight up coming in too hot for the tires and compensating with braking. You need to scrub a little speed before you get that deep into the turn. Trail braking is one thing but you are HARD on the brakes because of late braking. I bet in the hands of a more seasoned racer, they wouldnt have the same issues.

I think you need to focus on being smoother. Meaning tap the brake well before the turn to scrub some speed, then you can take the corner without upsetting the car so much as well as standing on the brakes. You understeered like a mofo there and even without decent brakes that tells me you were pushing it way too hard going into the corner.

You might want to try a stickier tire if you are pushing that hard. You are just overusing the brakes.

I already responded to this in a previous post, this is just one lap, not indictive of every single
None of what I said was intended to offend you. Just offering my opinion as a seasoned autox and track day guy. You have the balls and the want, but your equipment is failing you basically. If you change that technique it might not feel as fast, but smooth doesnt always feel fast. Your times will reflect it though.

Thanks, no offense taken, but I already responded to this same advice in a previous post, remember this is just one lap and it is not indicative of most of my laps, I am human and I am going to have "off" corners, when I do, this should not be how a car responds