[Norm Peterson]

It's hard enough figuring out how to improve your track driving when you've already got some idea of what high performance driving is all about. I can't imagine coming in completely cold, with only an average driver's typically mindless street-driving habits to fall back on. Although I have actually observed this, first-hand from inside the car.

A rank newbie (meaning no previous track driving or autocrossing experience) can expect to learn more about high performance driving in a single instructed day than he learned in all of his previous driving experience put together. Maybe inside of just the first couple of 20 minute sessions.


Norm

[Aperretta]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

It's hard enough figuring out how to improve your track driving when you've already got some idea of what high performance driving is all about. I can't imagine coming in completely cold, with only an average driver's typically mindless street-driving habits to fall back on. Although I have actually observed this, first-hand from inside the car.

A rank newbie (meaning no previous track driving or autocrossing experience) can expect to learn more about high performance driving in a single instructed day than he learned in all of his previous driving experience put together. Maybe inside of just the first couple of 20 minute sessions.


Norm

Sounds intense when you say it like that! Maybe I had a different experience than most. I was very comfortable by the end of the day and I’m looking forward to the next event. My coworker is probably in his late 50’s and still gets asked to drive for big names, but his advice seemed to be that the most important thing is to learn the track. He said instructors are great, and still recommends them, but was fairly confident that a patient driver can learn without an instructor. No worries either way for me. Maybe I’ll get one at a future event but I had a great experience and improved so much on my own.

[Aperretta]

I also found it helpful to follow more experienced drivers.

[jessrayo]

I'm with Norm, learning the line around the track is important but the real art to speed is knowing how to modulate the steering, brakes and throttle to maximize the amount of grip you can get from your tires. You need more weight forward for better braking and more weight rearward for better acceleration. It sounds simple but it really isn't. The tires only have so much grip period. You can use that grip to accelerate, decelerate or turn. If you have got all your grip used up in braking you won't turn very well, but there is a magic place in the grip spectrum where you have overlap of lateral grip and accel/decel that gives you a little more total grip. The easiest way for me to explain it is if you can shift the car weight forward onto the front wheels then release some braking and turn, the tires turn better when the car weight is on the front tires, then after the car has turning momentum established you can give it throttle, often before the apex depending on how fast your engine throttle response is and shift the weight back onto the rear to get it to launch out of the corner way harder than you could from a standstill. The transition from trail brake to throttle at the right time based on the weight shift of the car will allow it to go around a corner much faster than the car could ever coast around the corner if you set an equivalent speed and tried to just steer it. When you get it right it feels amazing. Just talking about it makes me want to go out and take some laps somewhere. Some people have a natural talent for driving fast but most of us could benefit from some good instruction. The Camaro is pretty easy to drive fast because it is very communicative and it is very forgiving, the car will slide in a very controlled fashion when you exceed the limits of grip where some cars, when they let go they are gone.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Aperretta

Sounds intense when you say it like that!

Depending on the extent of your own individual driving experience, it certainly can be. There's different things to be aware of, and the driving is quite different from most peoples' street driving in more respects than just the speeds involved. There's learning to ignore the "red mist" that can crop up while chasing the car in front of you (as in, "I think I can catch that guy if I try a little harder . . .") or trying to eke out another mph down the main straight that sometimes needs the kind of reminder that a newbie may not recognize soon enough.

Maybe I had a different experience than most.

What I'll say here is that different people bring different aptitudes and length/breadth of experience to the table. If I posted all the details about my own first day out on a big track (that happening in 2012), anybody here who's an instructor (I'm not one, BTW) would most likely cringe upon reading it. Let's just say that relatively recent autocross experience might have been the biggest factor in my favor and leave it at that for now.

I'm 70, so I suspect that while your co-worker learned a lot of what he knows by doing, he still had to go through something like SCCA's racing school in order to get his racing license. I do agree that at some point, a sufficiently patient driver who can keep getting enough seat time can improve on his own. Even still, most of us can benefit from outside observations and suggestions well past the point where we've been signed off to run solo or moved up into progressively faster run groups by a track day entity.

It's not a sign of weakness to get help.


Norm

[Provoste]

Originally Posted by Aperretta

Sounds intense when you say it like that! Maybe I had a different experience than most. I was very comfortable by the end of the day and I’m looking forward to the next event. My coworker is probably in his late 50’s and still gets asked to drive for big names, but his advice seemed to be that the most important thing is to learn the track. He said instructors are great, and still recommends them, but was fairly confident that a patient driver can learn without an instructor. No worries either way for me. Maybe I’ll get one at a future event but I had a great experience and improved so much on my own.

Agree 100% with Norm's feedback.

I also agree to a point with you/your co-worker about a motivated driver being able to learn a lot from just seat time. However, everyone needs coaching/instruction at some point, or else you are destintined to spend a lot of time in the intermediate ranks.

Most (more like all) track drivers plateau in intermediate for a while, some a year... some for the rest of their track driving days. The guys/gals that move on and become the fastest drivers in the advanced groups are the ones who challenge themselves all the time to get better... with with data evaluation and/or other instructor coaching.

Here is another reason for asking for feedback: Lets say you keep getting frustrated because you are struggling with oversteer/rear end sliding coming onto the main straight. So, you then decide you'll put a wider rear tire on to cure the "oversteer issue". When in fact- you were pinching the car coming on the straight by not unwinding the steering enough. A simple "driver mod" all the sudden cures the "handling issue".

[Aperretta]

Originally Posted by Provoste

Agree 100% with Norm's feedback.

I also agree to a point with you/your co-worker about a motivated driver being able to learn a lot from just seat time. However, everyone needs coaching/instruction at some point, or else you are destintined to spend a lot of time in the intermediate ranks.

Most (more like all) track drivers plateau in intermediate for a while, some a year... some for the rest of their track driving days. The guys/gals that move on and become the fastest drivers in the advanced groups are the ones who challenge themselves all the time to get better... with with data evaluation and/or other instructor coaching.

Here is another reason for asking for feedback: Lets say you keep getting frustrated because you are struggling with oversteer/rear end sliding coming onto the main straight. So, you then decide you'll put a wider rear tire on to cure the "oversteer issue". When in fact- you were pinching the car coming on the straight by not unwinding the steering enough. A simple "driver mod" all the sudden cures the "handling issue".

I’ll probably never make it to advanced or fastest groups. I don’t have the time or money to devote to that. Im like the guy at the gym who can bench press a respectable 315lbs but also has a beer gut because I can’t devote that much resources and I am not dedicated enough.