[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by Emoto

*shrug* I don't mind knowing people's backgrounds when it has some bearing on topics at hand. The guy was kind of slighted by someone and I saw that as a reasonable response. That's just my opinion.

Yes, being a lobbyist and writing bills and running a Saturn around a parking lot has a lot of bearing in knowing how a catch can works.

[torqueaddict]

This is indeed a very informative thread. Why does it have to degenerate into personal attacks? Just stick to the topic.

There is certainly evidence that could be presented on both sides. But the fact that high mileage LT1s (much higher than what's in those last pics) have been seen with a lot less deposits has to raise other questions regarding the circumstances around their formation.

Like that low mileage engine shown. I'd love to know the history of that engine's maintenance, down to the oil type and frequency of use. I'd also like to know the owner's driving habits. Were there other issues with the engine? Where there any modifications in the past? I think there's more to this than what meets the eye.

Note: I haven't read the link shown, so maybe some of these questions have already been answered.

[00 Trans Ram]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

This is indeed a very informative thread. Why does it have to degenerate into personal attacks? Just stick to the topic.

There is certainly evidence that could be presented on both sides. But the fact that high mileage LT1s (much higher than what's in those last pics) have been seen with a lot less deposits has to raise other questions regarding the circumstances around their formation.

Like that low mileage engine shown. I'd love to know the history of that engine's maintenance, down to the oil type and frequency of use. I'd also like to know the owner's driving habits. Were there other issues with the engine? Where there any modifications in the past? I think there's more to this than what meets the eye.

Note: I haven't read the link shown, so maybe some of these questions have already been answered.

To moderate a bit, I'd be willing to bet that NOT having a can is, in no way, a "death sentence" for an LT1. They will continue to run, and to run fine. Heck, I've seen old SBC with 300k miles on them, where the inside of the engine looked like there was raw brownie batter used instead of oil. And they still ran just fine.

I guess the question becomes, are they worth it to possibly prevent some minor degradation of performance some years down the road?

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

This is indeed a very informative thread. Why does it have to degenerate into personal attacks? Just stick to the topic.

There is certainly evidence that could be presented on both sides. But the fact that high mileage LT1s (much higher than what's in those last pics) have been seen with a lot less deposits has to raise other questions regarding the circumstances around their formation.

Like that low mileage engine shown. I'd love to know the history of that engine's maintenance, down to the oil type and frequency of use. I'd also like to know the owner's driving habits. Were there other issues with the engine? Where there any modifications in the past? I think there's more to this than what meets the eye.

Note: I haven't read the link shown, so maybe some of these questions have already been answered.

If you haven't checked out the vid I posted on redline/Italian tuneup from EE it connects some dots for sure.

I'd also think that the engine's oil consumption and possibly related piston ring seal are other factors that may change quite a bit from engine to engine. IME, auto mfg'ers have fairly recently been able to achieve close to perfect piston ring seals with resulting engines having near zero oil consumption. It also seems this is not perfected as some engines still consume oil and others seem to have major issues with oil consumption so it's possible the rate of success for achieving a near perfect seal are not 100%.

In any case, piston ring seal may be a huge driving factor in deposit formation, as with a near perfect seal you won't have the same kind of pressure buildup in the crankcase and resultant higher levels of PCV action. And you notice this because the oil level on the dipstick never changes. The dipstick indicator is about 1 qt from top to bottom so small amounts of oil loss are noticeable. So, if the car doesn't use oil and there's no blowby, there will be less flow via the PCV system and less deposits.

Another factor is low volatility oil, and the fact that certain oil additives may change the behavior of deposit formation and also may change the temperatures that deposits form at. If the oil has low volatility and the peak temperature of oil deposit formation can be shifted out of the most common temps the intake valve sees than that would have a major effect on deposit formation.

The truth is this isn't a simple issue or it never would be a problem in the 1st place. I think auto engineers working for major manufacturers are unlikely to share their knowledge of the subject as they are in competition with each other and the ability to build GDI motors w/o deposit issues is a big competitive advantage.

I also think it's much less likely we'll see issues with the LT1 because it isn't forced induction and owners of these cars are much more likely to use the engine's peak hp levels, which may increase the temps of the intake valve to the point they actually do get cleaned as a result.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Emoto

*shrug* I don't mind knowing people's backgrounds when it has some bearing on topics at hand. The guy was kind of slighted by someone and I saw that as a reasonable response. That's just my opinion.

RELEVANT background on a topic is important.

Being a lobbyist, knowing some person whose name I don't care to go find, crashing a Saturn, and incorrectly stating the department of insurance in Louisiana handles factory warranty claim disputes has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Oh I forgot taking on allstate and winning, which is also completely irrelevant.

I haven't read the last link he posted but (assuming it's described correctly in his post) that was the first relevant thing he posted in the thread.. and note.. none of his background was needed to make that point.

[Whocares05050]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

We're specifically talking about the LT1 here.

So far all we have is evidence that it isn't an issue.

I am also talking about the lt1.... good lord

[Whocares05050]

Originally Posted by Nsxmatt

Only to a vendor selling catch cans using pictures from an older BMW as "proof". Current DI cars are not seeing that problem.

Im not a vendor nor selling anything. Just because you cant see into the future doesn't mean its not going to be a problem either.

As you can see on the previous page, there is buildup for sure more and more the higher the miles. What will 80k or 100k or 120k look like? We wont know until we have 50+ cars above 75k miles willing to inspect and take pictures. Either way its pay now or pay later so not sure why everyone is so triggered in here

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Whocares05050

I am also talking about the lt1.... good lord

So far in all of your posts all you've said is the GDI motors get deposits on the intake valves. We know.

Your religious repetition of the same old stuff you've read about on the internet doesn't make it so.

Taunting others and calling them "triggered" is ridiculous, keep that $hit in your mom's basement please.

[Whocares05050]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

So far in all of your posts all you've said is the GDI motors get deposits on the intake valves. We know.

Your religious repetition of the same old stuff you've read about on the internet doesn't make it so.

Taunting others and calling them "triggered" is ridiculous, keep that $hit in your mom's basement please.

Moms basement? I own 2 houses, thanks. And I have personally had 4 DI vehicles with carbon buildup issues. This is my 5th new DI vehicle since 2008. But... good luck with your "italian tuneup"

[00 Trans Ram]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

RELEVANT background on a topic is important.

Being a lobbyist, knowing some person whose name I don't care to go find, crashing a Saturn, and incorrectly stating the department of insurance in Louisiana handles factory warranty claim disputes has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Oh I forgot taking on allstate and winning, which is also completely irrelevant.

I haven't read the last link he posted but (assuming it's described correctly in his post) that was the first relevant thing he posted in the thread.. and note.. none of his background was needed to make that point.

Who said I crashed it? I sold it in 2008 and got a G8 GT (which I also didn't crash!).

The whole Allstate thing was to show that you can take on "big companies" without going to court (read the posts above mine).

Warren Byrd is the Deputy Commissioner of Property and Casualty for the Louisiana Department of Insurance. And he personally told me that DOI can oversee warranty claims. https://www.ldi.la.gov/office-directory

Is it really so hard for you to see that someone said, "Yeah, go sue GM and see how it turns out" and my response of "Here's how I took on Allstate and how it turned out" . . . is it really so hard to see the parallel there?

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by 00 Trans Ram

I guess the question becomes, are they worth it to possibly prevent some minor degradation of performance some years down the road?

And that's the million dollar question. Seeing the fairly clean high mileage engines is enough for me to gamble on the LT1 not only running fine, but not losing any significant enough amount of power to matter as it ages.

At the same time, as I mentioned before, I don't see a catch can possibly hurting anything. They are also easy to remove. What would be nice though, is to get more convincing data on their actual effectiveness.

Originally Posted by DaveC113

If you haven't checked out the vid I posted on redline/Italian tuneup from EE it connects some dots for sure.

I'd also think that the engine's oil consumption and possibly related piston ring seal are other factors that may change quite a bit from engine to engine. IME, auto mfg'ers have fairly recently been able to achieve close to perfect piston ring seals with resulting engines having near zero oil consumption. It also seems this is not perfected as some engines still consume oil and others seem to have major issues with oil consumption so it's possible the rate of success for achieving a near perfect seal are not 100%.

In any case, piston ring seal may be a huge driving factor in deposit formation, as with a near perfect seal you won't have the same kind of pressure buildup in the crankcase and resultant higher levels of PCV action. And you notice this because the oil level on the dipstick never changes. The dipstick indicator is about 1 qt from top to bottom so small amounts of oil loss are noticeable. So, if the car doesn't use oil and there's no blowby, there will be less flow via the PCV system and less deposits.

Another factor is low volatility oil, and the fact that certain oil additives may change the behavior of deposit formation and also may change the temperatures that deposits form at. If the oil has low volatility and the peak temperature of oil deposit formation can be shifted out of the most common temps the intake valve sees than that would have a major effect on deposit formation.

The truth is this isn't a simple issue or it never would be a problem in the 1st place. I think auto engineers working for major manufacturers are unlikely to share their knowledge of the subject as they are in competition with each other and the ability to build GDI motors w/o deposit issues is a big competitive advantage.

I also think it's much less likely we'll see issues with the LT1 because it isn't forced induction and owners of these cars are much more likely to use the engine's peak hp levels, which may increase the temps of the intake valve to the point they actually do get cleaned as a result.

Interesting points. I will check out that vid.

[SSDan]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I also think it's much less likely we'll see issues with the LT1 because it isn't forced induction and owners of these cars are much more likely to use the engine's peak hp levels, which may increase the temps of the intake valve to the point they actually do get cleaned as a result.

So I started driving back in the days when it was often said "I floored her today to blow the carbon out". So I guess that still applies today even with our fancy DI engines. Looks like I still have the excuse to let 'er rip as its good for the engine. Yeah!

On the actual topic. I have 19 k miles on my LT1 and use no oil between changes. I can't tell that I have had any loss of power or diminished idle performance because the engine might have carbon build up. I am neutral on the catch can issue. I put a catch can on my Gen 5 when I did the cam/bolt-on build. It would catch about an ounce per 1000 miles. I guess that is a good thing but honestly I don't know if it made a difference. For my LT1 - I have chosen to leave it alone - no performance mods and no catch can. I'm going to live dangerously on this topic and just drive the car. This is a very entertaining thread by the way.

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by Whocares05050

Im not a vendor nor selling anything. Just because you cant see into the future doesn't mean its not going to be a problem either.

As you can see on the previous page, there is buildup for sure more and more the higher the miles. What will 80k or 100k or 120k look like? We wont know until we have 50+ cars above 75k miles willing to inspect and take pictures. Either way its pay now or pay later so not sure why everyone is so triggered in here

That's not buildup, it's normal staining in an internal combustion vehicle. I swear some of you have never looked inside an engine before so you see anything other than bare metal and flip out "oH I nEEd a kAtch kAn!!!". Honda has roughly 5 million DI engines out there and none have any buildup reported. We have a courier with 400k on his 14 Accord with zero problems at all with many 200k mile examples coming in too. The technology has got better and the problems you all had in the past do not exist anymore for the most part. Like I've said like 20x before, the DI bad rap mainly came from the early examples from BMW.

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by SSDan

So I started driving back in the days when it was often said "I floored her today to blow the carbon out". So I guess that still applies today even with our fancy DI engines. Looks like I still have the excuse to let 'er rip as its good for the engine. Yeah!

On the actual topic. I have 19 k miles on my LT1 and use no oil between changes. I can't tell that I have had any loss of power or diminished idle performance because the engine might have carbon build up. I am neutral on the catch can issue. I put a catch can on my Gen 5 when I did the cam/bolt-on build. It would catch about an ounce per 1000 miles. I guess that is a good thing but honestly I don't know if it made a difference. For my LT1 - I have chosen to leave it alone - no performance mods and no catch can. I'm going to live dangerously on this topic and just drive the car. This is a very entertaining thread by the way.

This is actually true more today because of the variable cylinder management. The dead cylinders cause more of a buildup problem than the DI issue so if you do a lot of hwy or putting around it's good to "blow it out" once in a while.