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Old 06-02-2023, 06:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Bumbleboy92 View Post
Honestly though, after Al O. left the Camaro team I don’t think there were any plans for performance changes. Everything after seemed to be people’s own pipe dreams. The first time I saw someone mention a different engine from the LT4 was on here with them saying they hope it would happen. The ZL1 was the last performance bump, with the ZLE being pieced together with DSSV shocks and aero.

I would go on to say the absolute last ‘performance’ change they did was in 2019+ with the slightly different tune and A10 replacement. I could be wrong but the performance bump has been a pipe dream for the last 5 years
Agree! After Al left, it seemed all downhill from there with no big changes on the horizon.
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Old 06-02-2023, 07:18 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Bumbleboy92 View Post
Honestly though, after Al O. left the Camaro team I don’t think there were any plans for performance changes. Everything after seemed to be people’s own pipe dreams. The first time I saw someone mention a different engine from the LT4 was on here with them saying they hope it would happen. The ZL1 was the last performance bump, with the ZLE being pieced together with DSSV shocks and aero.

I would go on to say the absolute last ‘performance’ change they did was in 2019+ with the slightly different tune and A10 replacement. I could be wrong but the performance bump has been a pipe dream for the last 5 years
I'm pretty sure the decision to kill Camaro had already been made by the time Al left. Hence, the reason Al left and went to EV.
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Old 06-02-2023, 07:20 PM   #31
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Do you really think someone will put a 1LT CE into a collection somewhere and never drive it because it has a unique black paintjob?
You're the only one said anything about the 1LT. I'm talking about the ZL1.
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Old 06-02-2023, 07:23 PM   #32
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People buy Camaros for performance, not for appearance packages.
Which is why I don't get why people are bitching about this package.

I get wanting more performance but to be mad because it's black...good lord.

Let's face it, it could be any other color and people would still bitch about it for some reason. Either because it's just another GM appearance package or because the color doesn't have enough metallic in it to gleam like a diamond in a goat's ass when the sun hits just right. lol
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Old 06-02-2023, 07:37 PM   #33
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You're the only one said anything about the 1LT. I'm talking about the ZL1.
Yes, yes, yes. I know..lol just sayin' a unique color doesn't make it collectable. For sure the ZL1 and the matte will have it's buyers. But the uniqueness is watered down with the same "theme" in less desirable, and probably not even collectable at all CE badged models and trims...All good...
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Old 06-03-2023, 12:49 AM   #34
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It really doesn't matter if it sucks or not because there will be so few of them made that they will all be garage queens. None of them will really be driven. You can't really look at that color and use daily driven logic behind it.

I don't love matte black either but I totally get why they chose it. It fits perfectly with the Panther theme and imo, is perfect for this car since it was going to be called Panther originally. I don't think they could have picked a better color for this car.
Nah. It’s another mistake GM made in their long line of mistakes. Now they will say we must get EVs or we the consumers are wrong. Bud light and others tried this strategy. Nobody in 2023 cares about this Panther … especially guys making money. Dodge killed it on presentation. GM did the opposite. I was looking forward to owning the end all collector Camaro and now I’ll keep my ZLE over that brittle puppy. I appreciate the info man so thanks for clarifying things cuz most dealerships can’t even carry on a 2 minute conversation when it comes this car. With all that said GM should be ashamed of themselves … they took the real car guys out of the divisions and we get badges and a flat color to commemorate an icon. Btw I own a black ZLE so color isn’t the issue.

Last edited by Palutz; 06-03-2023 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 06-03-2023, 07:12 AM   #35
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Nah. It’s another mistake GM made in their long line of mistakes. Now they will say we must get EVs or we the consumers are wrong. Bud light and others tried this strategy. Nobody in 2023 cares about this Panther … especially guys making money. Dodge killed it on presentation. GM did the opposite. I was looking forward to owning the end all collector Camaro and now I’ll keep my ZLE over that brittle puppy. I appreciate the info man so thanks for clarifying things cuz most dealerships can’t even carry on a 2 minute conversation when it comes this car. With all that said GM should be ashamed of themselves … they took the real car guys out of the divisions and we get badges and a flat color to commemorate an icon. Btw I own a black ZLE so color isn’t the issue.

Agree ! Seems like a fail to me ! GM all in on EV's, big mistake


So glad I didn't wait for the special edition , just picked up my new 2SS last week, love the color, Radiant Red, the Black Panther edition does nothing for me. Matte black, ugh , a trend already on it's way out.
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Old 06-03-2023, 07:32 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Palutz View Post
Nah. It’s another mistake GM made in their long line of mistakes. Now they will say we must get EVs or we the consumers are wrong. Bud light and others tried this strategy. Nobody in 2023 cares about this Panther … especially guys making money. Dodge killed it on presentation. GM did the opposite. I was looking forward to owning the end all collector Camaro and now I’ll keep my ZLE over that brittle puppy. I appreciate the info man so thanks for clarifying things cuz most dealerships can’t even carry on a 2 minute conversation when it comes this car. With all that said GM should be ashamed of themselves … they took the real car guys out of the divisions and we get badges and a flat color to commemorate an icon. Btw I own a black ZLE so color isn’t the issue.
All true, but you're still somewhat naively anthropomorphizing this company. Every step they take is calculated, they have no vision, pride or morality, just an emotionless drive to cater to the set of buyers that are most likely to be or become the mainstream. Morph products as necessary, to fit whatever looks to be the next expansion bandwagon opportunity, maximizing political correctness in the process.

It's on us customers to change this outlook itself, no amount of complaining, convincing or presentation will make them change course a hundredth of a degree.

(Before someone chimes in with "you just described capitalism", no, it isn't that, but this shouldn't become a political thread )
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Old 06-03-2023, 07:39 AM   #37
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To be collectible a car must be rare and desirable. GM is trying to get people to focus on the rarity, but is a special paint and trim enough to make it desirable?

For Camaro buyers I see desirable features are one’s that focus on performance. An engine with just 5 more horsepower would make this desirable just for bragging rights. Or some special handling package.

The market has not put a huge premium on special edition Indy pace cars, shock and steel editions, etc. I would put this in the same category. Here are the adjustments Hagerty has for 2015 SS Camaros as a guide:
-20% for 6-cyl, +5% for 2SS, +10% for Transformers Edition, +10% for Hot Wheels Edition, +10% for manual trans on SS, +15% for 1LE, +30% for COPO when ordered with all available engines. You can do better with a 1LE package than a special edition.
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Old 06-03-2023, 07:41 AM   #38
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I wonder if there is any way to determine how many units of CEs, or how many units of all other trim levels will be produced. A production year of roughly six months with a known end-date looks to me like there will be a lot of disappointed potential buyers.

I would think gm has a number in mind....A planned end of production would have to use up what components are needed, with supplies ramping down and many options left exhausted and impossible to build.

Things seem hard enough now with the '23s to get built and delivered. I don't see any urgency to improve on that for '24 especially with the brand being terminated.

Good luck. I don't think we've seen anything yet in the frustration to get your car department.....
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Old 06-03-2023, 07:43 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Jc9767 View Post
To be collectible a car must be rare and desirable. GM is trying to get people to focus on the rarity, but is a special paint and trim enough to make it desirable?

For Camaro buyers I see desirable features are one’s that focus on performance. An engine with just 5 more horsepower would make this desirable just for bragging rights. Or some special handling package.

The market has not put a huge premium on special edition Indy pace cars, shock and steel editions, etc. I would put this in the same category.
I would agree with that. I recall the axiom about anything being advertised as rare and collectable from the start usually isn't....Except for it's the end of ICE Camaros completely...So there's that.
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Old 06-03-2023, 07:50 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Jc9767 View Post

The market has not put a huge premium on special edition Indy pace cars, shock and steel editions, etc. I would put this in the same category. Here are the adjustments Hagerty has for 2015 SS Camaros as a guide:
-20% for 6-cyl, +5% for 2SS, +10% for Transformers Edition, +10% for Hot Wheels Edition, +10% for manual trans on SS, +15% for 1LE, +30% for COPO when ordered with all available engines. You can do better with a 1LE package than a special edition.
None of those are as rare as the 2024 ZL1 CE will be. None of those represent the final year for the ICE, manual transmission Camaro(probably ever) either.
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Old 06-04-2023, 06:23 PM   #41
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Rarity isn’t the only measure of desirability in determining which cars become more collectible than others, and many of the other colors and equipment configurations actually may end up being more rare than the black CEs anyway.

I for one have no interest in a parts-bin, paint-and-stickers CE. Almost all of the “special” parts except the Panther logos are coming from existing Camaro models. The worst case is the ZLE spoiler. The reason ZLEs are on constraint right now is because the supplier can’t produce enough of these spoilers, likely because they’re being stockpiled for the 2024 models that start production soon.

I also have no interest in another black car. I saw a perfectly wrapped flat-black 6th-Gen yesterday, and it looked like a lump of coal. The lack of reflectivity in the surfaces totally hid all the interesting curves and character lines of the body. Fun cars should be fun colors!
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Old 06-04-2023, 07:48 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by 50MileSmile View Post
Rarity isn’t the only measure of desirability in determining which cars become more collectible than others, and many of the other colors and equipment configurations actually may end up being more rare than the black CEs anyway.

I for one have no interest in a parts-bin, paint-and-stickers CE. Almost all of the “special” parts except the Panther logos are coming from existing Camaro models. The worst case is the ZLE spoiler. The reason ZLEs are on constraint right now is because the supplier can’t produce enough of these spoilers, likely because they’re being stockpiled for the 2024 models that start production soon.

I also have no interest in another black car. I saw a perfectly wrapped flat-black 6th-Gen yesterday, and it looked like a lump of coal. The lack of reflectivity in the surfaces totally hid all the interesting curves and character lines of the body. Fun cars should be fun colors!
To be fair, the estimated ZL1 CE number from Gearhead is 300 if that.

I’d hope production is still at least in the 500s for ZLE’s like someone mentioned on another thread: https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=608085
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