305 square vs staggered issues

beworthy3 · 05-08-2023, 07:59 AM

I have a 2018 and I decided to run 305 square on 19s this year for autocross. With the ice mode issue ive lost some confidence on the brakes and it is consistently losing me time.

Does anybody know if throwing a 315 or 325 on the rears will help or even eliminate ice mode being a constant issue. I know there are a lot of threads on ice mode but I could not find a definitive answer.

Osbornsm · 05-08-2023, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beworthy3

I have a 2018 and I decided to run 305 square on 19s this year for autocross. With the ice mode issue ive lost some confidence on the brakes and it is consistently losing me time.

Does anybody know if throwing a 315 or 325 on the rears will help or even eliminate ice mode being a constant issue. I know there are a lot of threads on ice mode but I could not find a definitive answer.

Ice mode usually means too much brake for the tire.
What pads will you be running and can you get any heat in them during autocross?

beworthy3 · 05-08-2023, 02:46 PM

Im running stock pads with rt660s at autocross. I ran the OEM wheel/tire setup the last 2 years at autocross and currently run that as my track day setup. Never any issues with the OEM setup

With the rt660 setup on occasion the car just refuses to brake and plows on at autocross

Christian1LE · 05-08-2023, 02:52 PM

I have a 2022(which is supposedly not affected by ice mode, or at least less so) and I do get a weird issue when using slicks or sometimes randomly even on OEM tires. I believe it's related to ice mode but I'm still confused on it.

I basically randomly get a hard pedal and it just feels like the car will not stop, but it does. It's a hard pedal followed by what feels like no initial bite. I got it quite a few times running new R7 hoosier slicks on the track this weekend 315/30/18. I got used to it after a while but it's not cool how it just randomly happens. Luckily it only seems to increase my braking distance by a couple feet so it's not the end of the world, I do miss the apex though.

Could be pad related as well, but I'm not sure. I didn't see any correlation between overheating or not. In fact it felt like it would do it more often following a long straight where the brakes had more time to cool. Running DTC 60's.

DaveC113 · 05-08-2023, 03:28 PM

I went back to staggered (315/30/19 and 305/30/19 RT660 on ZLE sized wheels) bc of ice mode, it should help a lot because it's caused by both side to side as well as front/rear wheel speed discrepancies. So the ABS is used to seeing the fronts turn faster than the rears. I know some Vette drivers that gave up on square for the same reason, it makes ice mode MUCH more likely.

You can also upgrade to a '19+ EBCM (Electronic Brake Control Module) which is FAR better. A lot less ice mode and if it does happen it's like @Christian1LE said, it's momentary, pre-'19 it was FAR more than just momentary. I've only got it once since installing the '19+ EBCM and going back to staggered, it extended braking distance maybe 10 ft or so if that.

I started a thread on my EBCM swap and it's also in the AutoX thread. You need to find a donor car with the exact same options as your car or there will be issues if not a bricked car. Check the VIN. After the swap the car may need to reset a bunch of stuff, I had to drive it around the block before error lights went away. Good news is I got the parts for <$100 on ebay, they generally come with the ABS pump but you don't need to change that out, only the electronic module attached to it. It's a bit of a PITA to get to, so maybe 45 min or so of time. I may have lost teen driving mode and controls for the '19+ rear-view camera came up on the screen, so there may be some minor issues but the '19+ ABS software is a major upgrade.

Also, you can't buy one new, it's $$$ and they come unprogrammed, so if you get a new one you also need a '19+ car to install it into and flash the programming, so just look on ebay and in junkyards.

For '17-'18 SS 1LE I'd consider the EBCM, ZLE rear subframe bushings, SPL rear toe arms, a stiffer front bar (Hotchkis) and Vorshlag camber plates as the first things do to if driving on track or autox. It'll make an already great car even better.

DaveC113 · 05-08-2023, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian1LE

I have a 2022(which is supposedly not affected by ice mode, or at least less so) and I do get a weird issue when using slicks or sometimes randomly even on OEM tires. I believe it's related to ice mode but I'm still confused on it.

I basically randomly get a hard pedal and it just feels like the car will not stop, but it does. It's a hard pedal followed by what feels like no initial bite. I got it quite a few times running new R7 hoosier slicks on the track this weekend 315/30/18. I got used to it after a while but it's not cool how it just randomly happens. Luckily it only seems to increase my braking distance by a couple feet so it's not the end of the world, I do miss the apex though.

Could be pad related as well, but I'm not sure. I didn't see any correlation between overheating or not. In fact it felt like it would do it more often following a long straight where the brakes had more time to cool. Running DTC 60's.

I got some Ferodo 3.12 pads for track last year and they have a LOT more bite and mu vs OEM, you gotta relearn brake pedal application and keep from initiating braking too abruptly. As mentioned a square setup does make it more likely to experience ice mode, but tons of folks run square on track without issues, so a slight adjustment to technique should help a lot.

cdrptrks · 05-08-2023, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveC113

You can also upgrade to a '19+ EBCM (Electronic Brake Control Module) which is FAR better. A lot less ice mode and if it does happen it's like @Christian1LE said, it's momentary, pre-'19 it was FAR more than just momentary. I've only got it once since installing the '19+ EBCM and going back to staggered, it extended braking distance maybe 10 ft or so if that.

I would highly recommend the EBCM swap first before replacing tires. I did it on my 2017 SS 1LE last year and it completely fixed my repeated trips off into the grass in a specific spot at Harris Hill and MSR Houston Clockwise on stock tires even when I purposely tried to do abrupt initial brake application in those bumpy braking zones.

Ice mode happened more often on my 100 treadwear 3R tires on ZLE wheels compared to stock wheels/tires at MSRH but I haven't yet tested with them since I did the EBCM swap. I expect a big improvement even if ice mode isn't completely gone on the 3Rs.

Here are the steps for the EBCM swap. Unlike DaveC, my car didn't have any lights or issues and started right up afterwards, maybe because I pulled the ABS pump fuse before starting: https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...0#post11248660

cdrptrks · 05-08-2023, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian1LE

I have a 2022(which is supposedly not affected by ice mode, or at least less so)...I basically randomly get a hard pedal and it just feels like the car will not stop, but it does. Luckily it only seems to increase my braking distance by a couple feet so it's not the end of the world, I do miss the apex though.

That sounds great compared to 2017 SS 1LE ice mode which would cause a noticeable decrease in stopping g forces when reviewing the PDR video and resulted in badly missing the apex or going completely off track depending on how big the braking zone was before the corner and how conservative (or not) you were with picking your braking point.

cdrptrks · 05-08-2023, 09:20 PM

This thread reminded me that I made a before/after ice mode comparison video from my Harris Hill PDR videos last year but never uploaded it. Here it is:

I could make another video for MSR Houston clockwise too since I finally drove there again last month and had no ice mode issues after going off into the grass after the launch on my previous 2 visits before the EBCM swap due to ice mode but I doubt I will get around to making that video anytime soon.

beworthy3 · 05-08-2023, 11:05 PM

Thanks for all the info. I will research the ECBM swap but is it not difficult to find one with all the right options of my car? If I can do that switch without new tires and wheels that would be great. I just bought this setup in the winter.

beworthy3 · 05-09-2023, 08:18 AM

I have been searching ECBMs on ebay and there are a ton but I do not know how to differentiate what options the car had. Do i just need to find a part listing that lists all the options of the vehicle it came out of?

DaveC113 · 05-09-2023, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beworthy3

I have been searching ECBMs on ebay and there are a ton but I do not know how to differentiate what options the car had. Do i just need to find a part listing that lists all the options of the vehicle it came out of?

That or the VIN of the car it came out of, you can look up the options using a VIN number.

If neither the VIN or exact car w/options are listed try contacting the seller for the info.

Slurpee · 05-09-2023, 09:20 AM

Has anyone had any issues with running tires that are the same height and PTM modes? I typically run Pirelli 305/660 F 325/680 R, but 325/680s are getting increasingly rare. I could run 305/660 F 325/660 R, but not sure if that would mess up electronics. 315/680 R is also an option, but I prefer the wider tire.

beworthy3 · 05-09-2023, 09:56 AM

Thanks Dave, I have been down a rabbit hole of vin numbers today.

When you say options, does it have to be color as well? I found a part off of a 1SS 1LE, just like mine. Except my car is black and the part came off a car with that gorgeous red paint.

Will that work or do I need to find a black car?

05-08-2023, 07:59 AM	#1
beworthy3 Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: New Jersey Posts: 255	305 square vs staggered issues I have a 2018 and I decided to run 305 square on 19s this year for autocross. With the ice mode issue ive lost some confidence on the brakes and it is consistently losing me time. Does anybody know if throwing a 315 or 325 on the rears will help or even eliminate ice mode being a constant issue. I know there are a lot of threads on ice mode but I could not find a definitive answer.

05-08-2023, 03:28 PM	#5
DaveC113 Drives: 2018 Camaro 1SS 1LE Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 1,865	I went back to staggered (315/30/19 and 305/30/19 RT660 on ZLE sized wheels) bc of ice mode, it should help a lot because it's caused by both side to side as well as front/rear wheel speed discrepancies. So the ABS is used to seeing the fronts turn faster than the rears. I know some Vette drivers that gave up on square for the same reason, it makes ice mode MUCH more likely. You can also upgrade to a '19+ EBCM (Electronic Brake Control Module) which is FAR better. A lot less ice mode and if it does happen it's like @Christian1LE said, it's momentary, pre-'19 it was FAR more than just momentary. I've only got it once since installing the '19+ EBCM and going back to staggered, it extended braking distance maybe 10 ft or so if that. I started a thread on my EBCM swap and it's also in the AutoX thread. You need to find a donor car with the exact same options as your car or there will be issues if not a bricked car. Check the VIN. After the swap the car may need to reset a bunch of stuff, I had to drive it around the block before error lights went away. Good news is I got the parts for <$100 on ebay, they generally come with the ABS pump but you don't need to change that out, only the electronic module attached to it. It's a bit of a PITA to get to, so maybe 45 min or so of time. I may have lost teen driving mode and controls for the '19+ rear-view camera came up on the screen, so there may be some minor issues but the '19+ ABS software is a major upgrade. Also, you can't buy one new, it's $$$ and they come unprogrammed, so if you get a new one you also need a '19+ car to install it into and flash the programming, so just look on ebay and in junkyards. For '17-'18 SS 1LE I'd consider the EBCM, ZLE rear subframe bushings, SPL rear toe arms, a stiffer front bar (Hotchkis) and Vorshlag camber plates as the first things do to if driving on track or autox. It'll make an already great car even better. __________________

05-09-2023, 09:20 AM	#13
Slurpee Drives: 2020 ZL1 A10; Shadow Gray Metallic Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Chicago Posts: 141	Has anyone had any issues with running tires that are the same height and PTM modes? I typically run Pirelli 305/660 F 325/680 R, but 325/680s are getting increasingly rare. I could run 305/660 F 325/660 R, but not sure if that would mess up electronics. 315/680 R is also an option, but I prefer the wider tire. __________________

05-08-2023, 02:46 PM	#3
beworthy3 Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: New Jersey Posts: 255	Im running stock pads with rt660s at autocross. I ran the OEM wheel/tire setup the last 2 years at autocross and currently run that as my track day setup. Never any issues with the OEM setup With the rt660 setup on occasion the car just refuses to brake and plows on at autocross

05-08-2023, 02:52 PM	#4
Christian1LE Drives: 2004 BMW 330CI, 2022 1SS 1LE Join Date: Dec 2021 Location: NC Posts: 745	I have a 2022(which is supposedly not affected by ice mode, or at least less so) and I do get a weird issue when using slicks or sometimes randomly even on OEM tires. I believe it's related to ice mode but I'm still confused on it. I basically randomly get a hard pedal and it just feels like the car will not stop, but it does. It's a hard pedal followed by what feels like no initial bite. I got it quite a few times running new R7 hoosier slicks on the track this weekend 315/30/18. I got used to it after a while but it's not cool how it just randomly happens. Luckily it only seems to increase my braking distance by a couple feet so it's not the end of the world, I do miss the apex though. Could be pad related as well, but I'm not sure. I didn't see any correlation between overheating or not. In fact it felt like it would do it more often following a long straight where the brakes had more time to cool. Running DTC 60's.

05-08-2023, 11:05 PM	#10
beworthy3 Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: New Jersey Posts: 255	Thanks for all the info. I will research the ECBM swap but is it not difficult to find one with all the right options of my car? If I can do that switch without new tires and wheels that would be great. I just bought this setup in the winter.

05-09-2023, 08:18 AM	#11
beworthy3 Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: New Jersey Posts: 255	I have been searching ECBMs on ebay and there are a ton but I do not know how to differentiate what options the car had. Do i just need to find a part listing that lists all the options of the vehicle it came out of?

05-09-2023, 09:56 AM	#14
beworthy3 Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: New Jersey Posts: 255	Thanks Dave, I have been down a rabbit hole of vin numbers today. When you say options, does it have to be color as well? I found a part off of a 1SS 1LE, just like mine. Except my car is black and the part came off a car with that gorgeous red paint. Will that work or do I need to find a black car?

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