[sr71bb]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

One thing I should add. My philosophy has been that hooked up is faster than sliding around. When I push harder I slide around more, and lap times suffer. I am very confident in my ability to catch the slides, and stay on line. But Pros can slide around and pick up time. So I can still work on staying on throttle and fixing excessive side slip with steering inputs only. This, in addition to fine tuning the line is where I see my driver mod potential.

Your post reminds me of some GO FAST points from the PRO DRIVER that I try to emulate. He actually drives closer to the edge of adhesion on the ENTRY of the corner vs. the EXIT. If the car goes slightly over the edge that is OK because of the fact you are needing to slow down anyway VS. losing the edge at the EXIT of the corner at the time when you are wanting to get to full acceleration as quickly as possible.

I noticed he was generally at full throttle from the APEX of most of the corners ON that led on to a straightaway. Now you have to have a car that is set up well to do that. He also straightened out the corners to the extent that he could. He attempted to CONNECT the corners in a fashion that caused alot less steering input than you see in a typical non-pro driver.

He would also at times slightly tap or accelerate to get the car to in his words SETTLE. This allowed the car to more easily transition its weight and would rotate more easily into the position he wanted for his driving line.

All this of course CANT be done without a good drivers FEEL as a far as what the car wants. THAT takes ALOT of practice!!!

The BIGGEST mistake most drivers make is NOT looking far enough ahead on track to anticipate what must be done PRIOR to the car actually getting there. He mentioned he typically visualizes 2-3 turns ahead of where he actually is on track. Side benefit of course is that you can pick up any track flags and hazards well before you are actually on them.

[5.M0NSTER]

Good point! Corner exist is most important no doubt, but if you look at Sanna, he slid EVERYWHERE.

I think it comes down to which driving style suits your individual strengths best. No magic bullet, just self awareness and maximizing things we're all good at, on top of standard good practices. I don't have the time or money to get the amount of seat time to try different styles. Like most I have to guess, and commit to what feels right, while working to correct the "brake at marker 3" self preservation instincts sort of mistakes.

[Baddawg53]

I completely understand, and I think most people would agree, that improving as a driver is the quickest way to go faster and improve lap times.

What I don't really agree with, is this mantra that you shouldn't mod your car until you've maxed out its ability. This decision is entirely up to the individual and their own goals, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with modding and improving your car before you reach the limit of its capabilities. It's almost as if you're saying that someone shouldn't take their ZLE on track until they've mastered driving a Miata.

Work on your skills as a driver, get an instructor to help, mod your car how you see fit and how you think it'll be better. It really doesn't have to happen in any specific order.

[khcoaching]

Originally Posted by BanOne

SO a bit of a different perspective. I am a novice and coming up to speed on the whole HPDE thing, trying to learn as much as I can. I went at it on my own for the first year just to get used to things and see if I wanted to do it further., I was that guy fast in the straights and slow in the corners After coaxing from a friend I signed up with Chin and had an instructor for a day at sebring. I was getting a bit faster in the morning sessions but what clicked for me was riding in his car and seeing him drive. Mostly, seeing him test the limits. The next two sessions I ended up taking a total of about 15 seconds off my times because I could see what he was saying put into practice. That was a great experience. Unfortunately, the next event at homestead I go a "coach" that was not really interested in coaching was just really there for the free track time, needless to say the day was still fun but I found myself ignoring alot of what he was saying because it felt in conflict with what I knew was going on with the car. So coaching at track events can be hit or miss if you are going to go with a coach make sure it is a true professional.

Another small point on the consistent lap times, being in novice solo it has become difficult to set consistent lap times and "get into a groove" because of the range of levels you are getting in that class, I find myself wanting to move up just so I can concentrate on my ability and not worrying about the traffic.

Bit of a long spew and I am sorry for that.

Sigh... A huge issue with training in motorsports. I did a podcast on this a few years ago....

https://soundcloud.com/ken-hill-5347...social_sharing

[khcoaching]

Originally Posted by Baddawg53

I completely understand, and I think most people would agree, that improving as a driver is the quickest way to go faster and improve lap times.

What I don't really agree with, is this mantra that you shouldn't mod your car until you've maxed out its ability. This decision is entirely up to the individual and their own goals, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with modding and improving your car before you reach the limit of its capabilities. It's almost as if you're saying that someone shouldn't take their ZLE on track until they've mastered driving a Miata.

Work on your skills as a driver, get an instructor to help, mod your car how you see fit and how you think it'll be better. It really doesn't have to happen in any specific order.

Oh, you're spot on! If someone wants to mod their car because they want to, go for it. I'm a total gearhead and love doing it as well. From my perspective, it's not confusing the gearhead part with the driver training part. Don't chase lap times with parts if your fundamentals aren't sound.

Edit - Far too many people ride or drive vehicles that are far too powerful for them to be in a position to learn, all their brain space is used up just surviving. The issue becomes that their learning curve is slowed because fundamental are harder to learn in something fast.

Ken

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by Baddawg53

It's almost as if you're saying that someone shouldn't take their ZLE on track until they've mastered driving a Miata.

I hate to say it but .. yeah. This.

If you haven't mastered driving a Miata, you're nothing but a straight king, while everyone else is on you after turn 1.

Master the Miata, then mod. Otherwise you're just in everyone's way immediately after the main straight. Or Mod, and stay on the street. The track crowd will appreciate it.

[N Camarolina]

I think some guys just like modding for the sake of modding, and some seem to want more power than they actually use because they like knowing it's there.

I'm also of the mind that there's no point in modding a car if your abilities don't allow you to drive (on track) to the limit of your car's OEM capability. In that scenario, you are just wasting money on things you can't take advantage of.

I suppose anyone can use more HP on longer straights, but your faster lap time will just be a reflection of straight line speed and require no improvement in skill. I'd rather get my lap times from what I do in the corners. But I will admit that mods that improve exhaust sound, especially at WOT are always nice!

[Baddawg53]

It seems as though the word mod here is only interpreted as additional horsepower...

So what does a novice drive until they master driving that Miata? What level driver is finally allowed to drive an SS 1le on track with 455 horsepower? Only high advanced groups are allowed to have a GT3 RS in them?

I think we need to encourage beginners to take their 1le and ZLE on track and learn and have fun. Upgrade them all they want and have fun doing it ...

[BoilerUP]

I made this and put it on Zuckerbook a few weeks back:



There are certainly benefits to learning in a momentum car, but there's no "wrong" learning in a higher powered SS or 1LE or even ZLE and everybody progresses differently. I know people in highly modified ZLEs on slicks that aren't quite as fast around NCM as Andy Pilgrim in a stock SS 1LE, but that doesn't mean they can't drive...

Get out there, park your ego, get instruction, check your mirrors and give points liberally, get seat time, slowly push toward the limit, check your mirrors and give points liberally, watch video/data, get more seat time, and did I mention check your mirrors?

[joelster]

I race autocross, but everything you said in the first post applies. Too many Novice guys, dive into the car first, thinking they can make it faster. Some of these guys own 1LE's and similar cars. I always ask them, "do you think that Chevy developed this car at the track or no?". Most newer cars are incredibly capable right off of the showroom floor. Just get some proper tires for what you want to do. A story I have that can relate is that a guy had a 2017 SS with an auto. He was doing 2 laps (autocross) with me in the passenger seat. He had it in manual mode and he was banging on the paddles. Up, down, up, down, etc. Then I did 1 lap, and just let the car shift itself. I was 2 seconds faster on a 35 second course. The car was shifting perfectly and was always in the power. Another example of the engineering that goes into our cars. Sometimes you just have to trust the car and not overthink it.

Easiest way to mod your car is to let a really fast driver take your car for a lap or two. If they come back and say something is wrong, or something is out of balance, then make the necessary adjustments.

[joelster]

I just want to add that you won't really find any flaws in a newer car until you can push it beyond 9/10ths. Just about every car I've driven hard will behave well up to that point. So if you're modding a car without being able to drive at that level, your just going in blind really.

[BanOne]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

5) Traffic on the track should not be viewed as a hindrance. In fact, I'd argue in the intermediate and advanced run groups, it makes track time both more fun and a better learning tool.

As you advance in your skills and run group, passing will start to occur at more difficult locations on the track (the ends of straight aways, and eventually in corners). So you will not be entering a corner on the ideal line (it might be least ideal line) and you will need to make adjustments in your speed and control inputs to successfully navigate the corner at "best possible speed," which is not that much slower than the optimal line.

Initially, it is a scary and uncomfortable thing to accelerate to make a pass on a short-straight, knowing that you are on the wrong side of the track and will need to execute the braking corrrectly to stay ahead of the other car as well as make the corner and exit reasonably well. But, this is something that the better HPDE organizations help prepare you for. For my upper intermediate skill level, BMW CCA has you do 1 session of the weekend doing on track exercises where drive the entire track with another car next to you or pass only in the corners.

So dont misunderstand, I actually do like the traffic when it is moving at a decent pace. During my first happy hour I went out during the second half specifically because I wanted to avoid traffic with the higher classes (sunday afternoon at 4:30 alot of people had left) and it was great for a bit I was really able to consistently execute my line without having to worry about a car or a pass. But what I noticed after about three laps of not seeing any car whatsoever there was a bit of a disappointment and I noticed I missed kind of chasing the rabbit. Watching others lines, car control ..... What I am referring to in the novice class is the large disparity between pace and experience. I appreciate others are learning just as I did and try to give alot of space and not pressure people but I have come across a couple cars that are just not on pace and end up with a stack of cars behind them. It ends up taking a 1/2 lap or more to get 4 or five cars past and by then you have fallen out of rythm. I have a couple friends that run in intermediate and they mention that traffic just flows better because everyone is more experienced.

[Jus Cruisin]

This is my idea of "tracking". Don't much care about how fast it'll corner.

[N Camarolina]

Originally Posted by BanOne

So dont misunderstand, I actually do like the traffic when it is moving at a decent pace. During my first happy hour I went out during the second half specifically because I wanted to avoid traffic with the higher classes (sunday afternoon at 4:30 alot of people had left) and it was great for a bit I was really able to consistently execute my line without having to worry about a car or a pass. But what I noticed after about three laps of not seeing any car whatsoever there was a bit of a disappointment and I noticed I missed kind of chasing the rabbit. Watching others lines, car control ..... What I am referring to in the novice class is the large disparity between pace and experience. I appreciate others are learning just as I did and try to give alot of space and not pressure people but I have come across a couple cars that are just not on pace and end up with a stack of cars behind them. It ends up taking a 1/2 lap or more to get 4 or five cars past and by then you have fallen out of rythm. I have a couple friends that run in intermediate and they mention that traffic just flows better because everyone is more experienced.

I remember those same frustrations in the novice group, with the long trains forming behind the driver that was very uncomfortable in the corners. They do indeed get better in the intermediate groups. If you think your line and car control are sufficient for moving up to intermediate groups, put some focus on the other things you need to be proficient at (vision up and looking far ahead, spotting each flag station, use your mirrors frequently and give appropriate point by, anticipate problems). And of course, ask your instructor what you need to be doing better in order to move up to the next group.