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Old 09-18-2019, 07:31 AM   #29
VinnAY
 
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Part of my union opinion stems from the too big to fail bailout of Government Motors...it was out there in the wind that the vehicle price had thousands of dollars there in legacy costs for basically retired employees, each vehicle has/had 2-3K in those costs there.
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Old 09-18-2019, 08:38 AM   #30
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I will chime in, as someone who has worked for the UAW in a GM plant and had a father who retired from GM as salary management.

The union is an archaic animal that needs to go away. It serves no real purpose anymore and as said is nothing more than a money grub system that rewards the higher up that are the union stewards for the UAW at each district.


Case in point, I watched the UAW President in OKC kill that plant off. At the time GM was making the Trailblazer and Envoy here in OKC. GM wanted to refurbish the plant to a universal platform that would allow it to be able to make multiple vehicles lines and or be able to be retooled quickly and change from one vehicle to another vehicle. In the course of doing this it would require more automation at the assembly line level which would eventually reduce the amount of workers needed.

GM presented that they would not eliminate any positions up front, but that as attrition from terminations and retirements and transfers happened the positions would not be back filled.

The local UAW President said no and the local UAW refused to budge at all and demanded no loss of positions and also tried to ask for more concessions at the OKC local UAW level.

Want to know what happened next, GM closed the plant and 3000 workers lost their positions and had to either retire, transfer or separate from GM.

With that there is no reason someone needs to be paid $30 per hour for assembly line work, double time for OT, a pension, a 401k, fully paid for healthcare during employment and dang near fully paid after retirement all while not having a degree.

I went to school and got a degree in one of the deadliest professions there is, high voltage utility line work and work for a local utility company making $40 per hr.

Not saying assembly line work isnt hard, I did it for GM for 3 years at the plant in OKC and back then we made $18 per hour in 1998-2001.

The crap I watched the UAW do to people and the people they protected just because you knew someone was crazy. I watched a punk ass kid who was purposely blinding other workers with a laser pointer punch another assembly line worker for asking him to stop. They sent the punk kid home and the plant manager went to fire him, because his dad knew some high up's with the local UAW people the kid not only kept his job, he was back paid for the entire time he was off work and got nothing more than a slap on the hand.

I was asked by GM to come back and work for them after they closed the plant, took all of the test and scored higher than the vat majority of the other candidates. In the end they hired a girl, someone I knew personally over me even though she was dumb as a box of rocks because she knew some high up people in the UAW and partied with them along with banging several of them. She got the job and eventually stayed long enough to retire out from GM several years ago.

The UAW is an animal of the past that needs to go, but none of the domestic automakers will take the chance and the loss of profits in order to do what needs to be done in order to get rid of the UAW and kill them off once and for all.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:20 AM   #31
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Not a fan of big corporations, upper management and our Government favoring Wall Street. But in this case, I feel sorry GM is stuck with the UAW. Yeah yeah we always gotta hear about what Unions did long ago. Now they are a cancer to this country, driving business outside our boarders, raising the price of every single product, service and public sector role. Just look at some of the comments, these people think they gave something up when the taxpayers bailed them out and saved many of their jobs. Not one of them could find a role that pays them equal in pay and benefits. Instead of being thankful for a job with good pay and benefits, they damage the company they work for by striking, instead of looking for another job or self employing. I hated supporting them with my ZL1 purchase and other GM vehicles in the past but I liked the product. Wish they could build them in the south with non-union US citizens who value the company they work for and the products they assemble.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:51 AM   #32
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Well said Realist!! Agree totally!
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:58 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by TJay74 View Post
I will chime in, as someone who has worked for the UAW in a GM plant and had a father who retired from GM as salary management.

The union is an archaic animal that needs to go away. It serves no real purpose anymore and as said is nothing more than a money grub system that rewards the higher up that are the union stewards for the UAW at each district.


...

The UAW is an animal of the past that needs to go, but none of the domestic automakers will take the chance and the loss of profits in order to do what needs to be done in order to get rid of the UAW and kill them off once and for all.
Thanks for sharing this.
For the record, I loathe unions. I'll make an exception for jobs like coal mining. Those guys probably need a union.
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:44 AM   #34
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With that there is no reason someone needs to be paid $30 per hour for assembly line work, double time for OT, a pension, a 401k, fully paid for healthcare during employment and dang near fully paid after retirement all while not having a degree.
Agreed!

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Wish they could build them in the south with non-union US citizens who value the company they work for and the products they assemble.
Amen!

Very interesting insights in this discussion.

I worked in a union for 3 years when I was young and they did nothing for me at all except take my money. The only person they supported was a dead beat alcoholic who was a terrible worker and person. Really sad as that mofo should have been fired. Any other real company and he would have been gone!
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:10 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by TJay74 View Post
I will chime in, as someone who has worked for the UAW in a GM plant and had a father who retired from GM as salary management.

The union is an archaic animal that needs to go away. It serves no real purpose anymore and as said is nothing more than a money grub system that rewards the higher up that are the union stewards for the UAW at each district.


Case in point, I watched the UAW President in OKC kill that plant off. At the time GM was making the Trailblazer and Envoy here in OKC. GM wanted to refurbish the plant to a universal platform that would allow it to be able to make multiple vehicles lines and or be able to be retooled quickly and change from one vehicle to another vehicle. In the course of doing this it would require more automation at the assembly line level which would eventually reduce the amount of workers needed.

GM presented that they would not eliminate any positions up front, but that as attrition from terminations and retirements and transfers happened the positions would not be back filled.

The local UAW President said no and the local UAW refused to budge at all and demanded no loss of positions and also tried to ask for more concessions at the OKC local UAW level.

Want to know what happened next, GM closed the plant and 3000 workers lost their positions and had to either retire, transfer or separate from GM.

With that there is no reason someone needs to be paid $30 per hour for assembly line work, double time for OT, a pension, a 401k, fully paid for healthcare during employment and dang near fully paid after retirement all while not having a degree.

I went to school and got a degree in one of the deadliest professions there is, high voltage utility line work and work for a local utility company making $40 per hr.

Not saying assembly line work isnt hard, I did it for GM for 3 years at the plant in OKC and back then we made $18 per hour in 1998-2001.

The crap I watched the UAW do to people and the people they protected just because you knew someone was crazy. I watched a punk ass kid who was purposely blinding other workers with a laser pointer punch another assembly line worker for asking him to stop. They sent the punk kid home and the plant manager went to fire him, because his dad knew some high up's with the local UAW people the kid not only kept his job, he was back paid for the entire time he was off work and got nothing more than a slap on the hand.

I was asked by GM to come back and work for them after they closed the plant, took all of the test and scored higher than the vat majority of the other candidates. In the end they hired a girl, someone I knew personally over me even though she was dumb as a box of rocks because she knew some high up people in the UAW and partied with them along with banging several of them. She got the job and eventually stayed long enough to retire out from GM several years ago.

The UAW is an animal of the past that needs to go, but none of the domestic automakers will take the chance and the loss of profits in order to do what needs to be done in order to get rid of the UAW and kill them off once and for all.
I feel the same about pole climbers. Waaaaaaaaay overpaid.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:34 PM   #36
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Good thoughts but some misinformation. Also the Chevy Traxx and Buick Encore are built in South Korea not China.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-fa...handong-china/
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:58 PM   #37
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I feel the same about pole climbers. Waaaaaaaaay overpaid.
i dont think i would care to be anywhere near that much voltage,especially considering its usually done right after a huge storm has just occurred.
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:01 PM   #38
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I like unions when they exist to protect worker/consumer safety where the company leverages the need to work with skirting their own costs.

I dont support unions that exist to boost worker wages or retain current employee's jobs.

And I dont think they should leverage one purpose to prop up the other.

If you read a bunch of what's going on regarding this, it seems a good deal has to do with being concerned over job security as companies move away from combustion engines to more simpler electric drivetrains. A lot of people who depend on the more parts and higher failure rate and complexity of combustion engine'd vehicles over electrical are worried they'll be looking for different jobs as those vehicles are phased out. Which sucks for them, but it's not like it's not going to happen. Grasping at the past wont do any better at preparing them for dealing with a world that doesn't need that many mechanics, auto workers etc.
very true.if the union was really protecting the workers they would be trying to get them an education in another field instead of a few more dollars an hour.
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:59 PM   #39
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I'm not pro union and I'm not against union. Same goes for company, I'm not pro or against.


They deserve to make money, no one ever got paid from someone who is broke.


Workers are what make the company and should be paid fairly.


For the last 4 years I am union and will continue to remain so. Take them away and watch what happens. I had two jobs at my refinery combined into one. I spend my entire time running my ass off and still not getting everything done(and believe me I am not on the list of people who does not get shit done).


So how did this happen? The company that doesn't know how to run its own plants and equipment hires a consultant who does time studies. They somehow managed to pick the two biggest pieces of crap in the complex to do their "time studies" on. So now you have one job that realistically cannot be done by one person. The union fought it, but the company shoved it up our rears. I'm just going to laugh when crap goes sideways, because it will and it has in the past.


I'll take a vote in here and I bet I'm the only one who has told a CEO to his face he is full of shit. PS never buy a vehicle from any dealer associated with Auto Nation if you have a soul.


Sometimes you need to take a stand being union or not union doesn't change this. If you took a pay cut or eliminated raises to help save your company that was in dire straights, wouldn't you want to see them restored when all involved were on a much better footing?


It's the same thing as the armchair mechanics in here who think they can make a living turning wrenches, most of them couldn't. (there is no excuse for shitty dealership service however)
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:27 PM   #40
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I recognize unions can be just as corrupt as management( see the current UAW scandal), but good unions out there still very much serve a purpose and needed.

Management will always twist regulations or have loose interpretations of them that suit their needs at the expense of employees. I am seeing that now in my line of work. The union is fighting that saying their interpretation is wrong. And who gets the smack and black mark if the feds find out? Me...... Now my career progression is stunted. The only reason I can push back and say no I am not doing that without fear of being fired is thanks to the union protection.

As for well why don't you just leave and go somewhere else? Sure I am definitely trying to move on to greener pastures, but making a lateral move and starting over again( taking a 50% paycut, loss of seniority, etc) is a tough pill to swallow and only done if forced to( company out of business, laid off, etc). So I am glad the union is there to help fight against managements twisting of this crap so I don't have to worry having any black marks on my record( either from the feds or having a termination on my employment record).
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Old 09-18-2019, 03:32 PM   #41
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Part of my union opinion stems from the too big to fail bailout of Government Motors...it was out there in the wind that the vehicle price had thousands of dollars there in legacy costs for basically retired employees, each vehicle has/had 2-3K in those costs there.
Just curious. Are you stipulating that the folks who had worked their 25-40 years for General Motors, paid their dues and now have retired, should have had their pensions either cut or taken entirely from them? These people worked most if not all of their adult lives for these pensions. They have earned them. It is part of the bargain that the company made with their employees. To even suggest that this is something that should be taken from someone is not only cruel and heartless, it is theft, plain and simple.

Just to be sure that the playing field is understood, other auto manufacturers, in other countries, do not have to fund healthcare. In every other industrialized nation, healthcare is NOT paid for by the employer. I seem to remember that the $3,000 figure included healthcare benefits, as well.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:37 PM   #42
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Just curious. Are you stipulating that the folks who had worked their 25-40 years for General Motors, paid their dues and now have retired, should have had their pensions either cut or taken entirely from them? These people worked most if not all of their adult lives for these pensions. They have earned them. It is part of the bargain that the company made with their employees. To even suggest that this is something that should be taken from someone is not only cruel and heartless, it is theft, plain and simple.
That wouldn't be an ideal situation, but it's more ideal than tanking an employer (with severe effects on current employees, immediate and in terms of their own eventual retirement) all for the sake of a finite extension of benefits to employees whose contributions to that employer have all been in the past. Worse still in terms of "theft" is having pension benefits including those of many from the auto industry be insured by the government - meaning the increasingly non-union American taxpayer foots the bill if an employer goes under and can't pay all its outstanding pension obligations (regardless of who is at fault - bad management from executives, shoddy work by union labor, market forces beyond the control of either, or some combination of all the above) - stealing from his ability to pay for his own retirement.

Long term, defined benefits pensions are a flat out bad idea for everyone involved, except a lucky few who enjoy a long & stable career followed by a decent retirement, a situation which is definitely not a guarantee, and pensions depend on an expectation of a certain amount of long term growth to make any kind of sense. We in America were spoiled to have a couple consecutive postwar generations enjoy that luck and growth, to the point that now unionized people expect it to continue - even a decade after the 2008 recession proved how foolish that was.

The current transition from defined benefit pensions to defined contribution plans like a 401(k) is smart because it is more realistic long term than a pension. A retiree's 401(k) may lose a lot of value or time as markets fluctuate, but with a mix of low risk/low reward and high risk/high reward investments, it should take a real and extended general market catastrophe to really get that retiree in trouble, the sort that even a pensioner would feel. Unfortunately a lot of unions push back hard against that transition in favor of the phony "guaranteed" traditional pension - but it's encouraging that not all do. I was very surprised a few years ago when the UAW at the aerospace company I work for approved a plan to put future retirement contributions into the 401(k) fund I and other nonunion employees have contributed to for years, maintaining pension benefits accumulated by union members employed before that point.
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