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Old 10-17-2019, 06:36 PM   #4005
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I can't wait to see one in person. I'll probably have to wait till they hit showrooms or the Chicago Auto Show
Let me know if you're definitely going. Maybe I'll fly out there and join you. And maybe a beer or two afterwards. Shit, after all the grief I give you, that's the least I can do, lol!!
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Ha, you got that from my post? Obviously, it is not as roomy. My point was that when needed or desired, I can fit all 3 of my kids in the car (it's definitely not roomy in the back). They're elementary aged so they still fit OK (for now). Personally, I have to have a performance vehicle; performance oriented vehicles are all I've ever owned. I could not drive around day to day in a bland crossover or boring 4-door sedan (probably a common sentiment among many of us here). Since I have kids, a car with only 2 seats is out of the question. So, 2+2 it is. My wife drives the SUV (current gen Volvo XC90 T6 AWD).

I briefly considered the Charger Hellcat before I bought the Mustang, but decided I didn't want a Chrysler product.
LOL, I was just giving you some shit. The Mustang is definitely more roomy than even the Camaro. At my height tho none of these cars are suitable for having a person in the back.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:11 PM   #4006
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I was watching Autoline After Hours this afternoon. Bob Lutz was the guest. Two very interesting moments. Bob was asked about whether the engine in the C8.R is a 5.5L DOHC with FPC. He started by saying he wasn’t really sure and that he hadn’t really followed it. Then one of the hosts said that it was and that it had been announced. Lutz said “you’re sure it’s been announced?” The host confirmed it. Then Bob switched gears. “Yes, it’s a DOHC and it’s got a flat crank. Definitely a flat crank.” Bob was still marching to the GM credo of not confirming anything until it is officially released to the public.

The other interesting moment was near the end when Frank Markus of Motor Trend said that on Monday, they will show what the REAL power output of the LT2 is and that a lot of people will be surprised. Lutz chimed in “surprised high, I’m sure”
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:18 AM   #4007
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I think that's a fair assessment. I had this conversation with Martin in another thread. The MT review was glowing, C&D was balanced they loved it, but did point out some things they expected to be better (mostly due to previous GM magic generation to generation) and then R&T was the most negative. After having some time to digest it, I think it's more of unfair hype levels than actual disappointment.

The only thing I am kind of let down with and that's my own fault for falling into the hype is the lap time lol. I basically had projections in my head of what it would do and they are flipped lol. It's way faster in a straightline than I ever thought it would be and not as fast around a road course as I thought it would be. The car is still amazing though
I found this interesting post by Jason Cammisa over on midenginecorvetteforum https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...spective/page2 as a follow up to some comments posted over there following the reviews about the handling and understeer behavior.

Thought the folks here might find it interesting:

Quote:
Hey guys. Okay, to answer the first question: I had two sessions on track with the C8, one was 7 laps at he end of a fairly long morning of abuse; the second was 7 laps on a new set of tires. When I hopped in the car the first time, it was in Track + PTM 5. I left it there. Toward the end of the second session, I turned ESC off fully.

As a matter of course, I test cars with their ESC systems both on and off. For cars with advanced track modes (like the Corvette) what I'm looking for is to learn what, if any, bad habits the system is trying to cover up.

Some Ferraris, for example, are amazing in Race Mode; neutral and predictable, and they feel 100% natural. It's only once you switch everything off that you realize the car is inherently very unstable at the rear, and the computer is managing everything. It's that well integrated that you mostly can't feel it working.

Even PTM 5 (on any GM, not just the C8) isn't really like that. It leaves you alone to do whatever you want, but will step in only to save your bacon if you're really about to lose it. In the case of the C8, I didn't feel a single intervention on track until I booted it gracelessly coming out of a hairpin to induce a slide. All it did was cut power (a TC function, not an ESP function.)

The car's behavior in the two modes was the same: easy to manage, incredibly stable, and very fast. My first impression was that it didn't have the oh-my-god levels of lateral grip that the C7 had at launch. The skidpad number (1.03g vs 1.08g) bear that out, so my butt-calibration wasn't off.

Understeer is an oft-misunderstood thing. Cars that don't understeer at all are uncontrollable — think of a shopping cart with omnidirectional casters at the rear. The fastest — and incidentally most rewarding — setup is that of very mild understeer to neutral. Basically, you want both ends of the car to reach their limit at the same time. If anything, maybe the front a hair before the rear.

This is mild understeer. And if the limits of the two axles are very close, you then have the ability to manage them using throttle, brake, or steering inputs. A mid-engie mild-understeerer can be made to go neutral with a small amount of trail-braking, for example.

The reason we (and C/D, and MT, and everyone else who's driven the car) complained about the understeer is for a few reasons. Firstly, it's not mild understeer: it's moderate and then some. This means, as a driver, the repertoire of tricks you have at your disposal to change the car's mid-corner attitude are very limited.

And by the way, when I say "we," I'm not talking about "me at Road & Track." I'm talking about the combined editorial staff. I'm sure you don't need or want a speech about the way magazines work, but when I'm writing a piece about a car as important as the C8, you can be sure I shared that story with my colleagues to ensure that we all agreed on those words. The senior R&T staff saw, and edited, that piece to make sure we all agreed with every word.

I should say that two other experienced drivers on staff didn't feel that the C8's understeer was an issue; they found ways of driving around it. They said they were able to get the car to rotate using big steering inputs, brake stabs, and massive trail-braking.

You've probably all seen my stunt driving — I've done literally thousands of huge slides for the MT videos (and everything else I've done) — but I was NOT going to risk crashing a C8 prototype for the glory of getting the car to rotate. Frankly, the whole point of a mid-engine car is that its low polar moment of inertia eliminates the need for that kind of driving. I got it sideways only under full throttle in 2nd gear on corner exit — and it was progressive and easily controllable. But since those guys found ways to drive around the C8's handling limitation, that line made it into "my" piece in R&T.

Fact is, I can get a Camry to oversteer — and quite easily — using those same moves. It shouldn't be necessary in any sports car. And definitely not in a Corvette.

I mean it when I say that GM does some of the best chassis tuning in the business. They have a secret sauce on the C7 and Alpha-plaform vehicles that somehow gives steering response at the understeer limit. This violates the laws of physics — you can get those cars to go neutral even after they've started understeering, using the steering alone. It's likely a combination of MR dampers, diff, and really good elastokinematics. The cars are unbelievable. They're some of the most rewarding limit-handling cars ever made.

The C8 doesn't do this.

I'm in the business of getting hard-working people fired, so there will be no names ever given. Put it this way: GM confirmed to me the limit-handling magic trick that the Alpha/C7 cars do isn't possible on the C8 for engineering reasons. But they're working on it. I suspect subsequent versions of the C8 will do this trick... but the Stingray will remain a resolute understeerer for production.

Let's talk about understeer. Does that mean that the C8 is less rewarding on a track for an advanced driver than it could/should be? Yes. Does it mean it should/could be faster around a track? Absolutely.

Does any of that make it a bad car — or a bad Corvette? Of course not. It's one data point!

You guys are clearly enthused about the car, and nobody wants to hear bad things about something they're excited about. I get that — but please, let's keep the conspiracy theories under control. There's no plan to sell additional magazines. I don't want, need, or care to re-spark a career that's not dead. (By the way, I didn't suddenly reappear at R&T; I've been working with those guys since Travis took over 6 months ago. I have a tech column in every issue.)

And as for "perspective:" the thing is fast as (insert profanity here.) Beats every Corvette ever tested to 60 mph; nearly ties the C7 Z06/Z07pkg through the quarter mile. That's a huge achievement, especially given no substantive power bump over the C7 Stingray. I wrote a big tech piece for R&T's Performance Car of the Year issue on that, explaining how it's possible. It's simple physics, and GM's intelligent guys and gals took advantage of the physics benefits of MR traction and a quick-shifting DCT. They did good.

The rest of the car is pretty dang good, too. I seriously cannot express how well it rides — it genuinely redefines what a sports car can ride like. Feels like you're floating on top of the pavement; it's a strange experience. Is that what a Corvette buyer wants? I'll leave that for you to decide. Doesn't matter what I think.

It doesn't matter whether like any part of the C8. I get paid to tell you about the facts, not the opinions. Facts are: the C8 will beat every other Corvette ever made to 60 mph. It rides like a dream. The passenger-side space is compromised because of the buttons. C7 had better steering feel. Brake-by-wire's didn't please everyone. Transmission has some programming issues that I expect will be taken care of before production begins; but its shifts (go see my IG acceleration video for an example) are nowhere near as quick as PDK's, etc. And the car has far more rear-axle grip than front grip in corners, meaning it understeers.

Any other facts you'd like to know? I'm happy to answer the questions. HeII, I'll give you my feelings too, if you want to know them.

Hope this helps!
Jason
I thought it gave an interesting insight to the "reviewer's perspective" on the car. IMO, with only 245mm MPS4S rubber up front it will be very easy to improve front end grip with a set of 305 Cup2s and some camber. So you could say yes I'm interested to see what they come up with for the Grandsport and then Z06. They could very well indeed be nearly world beaters approaching McLaren level performance...

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Old 10-18-2019, 06:46 AM   #4008
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Ford nut hugging to the extreme ... but we all know that already
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is that, what if you don't care for the Camaro? What if you want 4-seats? What other car offers what the GT350 offers for its price range, that you would actually enjoy driving?

MT stated even when directly compared to the ZL1, H2H in 2017, they chose it as the winner and stated This is the car you want to be driving on a winding road, they even made the case it was worth the 25k markups people were paying initially.

I don't think that there have been any reviews in which the car did not receive great praise and reviews, it continues to receive this 4 years into production. I don't think I ever recall a review in which they mentioned the word "ugly" or "hideous", when speaking about the car's appearance, like its competitor.

A year or so ago I got the itch to upgrade over my Boss, I drove a 2017 GT350 and was amazed at the performance, and fun factor, I also drove a A10 ZL1 and under hard throttle it is a beast, had the dealer taken my offer I would have been driving it now. Both were fantastic cars and I would love to have either. The 2019 non-R model has received significant updates so I wanted to give it a spin. A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to drive a 2019 GT350 which was very nicely optioned. I was shocked at the increased grip due to the updates, the car is planted and composed and is significantly better than the previous model I drove. So yes if the price was right I would purchase one today.

The 2020 Corvette is a great performer and priced right, but I like many others am not a Corvette guy. And given the choice of a new ZL1 or a new C8, I would chose the ZL1, because I want 4 seats.
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Old 10-18-2019, 08:08 AM   #4009
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is that, what if you don't care for the Camaro? What if you want 4-seats? What other car offers what the GT350 offers for its price range, that you would actually enjoy driving?

MT stated even when directly compared to the ZL1, H2H in 2017, they chose it as the winner and stated This is the car you want to be driving on a winding road, they even made the case it was worth the 25k markups people were paying initially.

I don't think that there have been any reviews in which the car did not receive great praise and reviews, it continues to receive this 4 years into production. I don't think I ever recall a review in which they mentioned the word "ugly" or "hideous", when speaking about the car's appearance, like its competitor.

A year or so ago I got the itch to upgrade over my Boss, I drove a 2017 GT350 and was amazed at the performance, and fun factor, I also drove a A10 ZL1 and under hard throttle it is a beast, had the dealer taken my offer I would have been driving it now. Both were fantastic cars and I would love to have either. The 2019 non-R model has received significant updates so I wanted to give it a spin. A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to drive a 2019 GT350 which was very nicely optioned. I was shocked at the increased grip due to the updates, the car is planted and composed and is significantly better than the previous model I drove. So yes if the price was right I would purchase one today.

The 2020 Corvette is a great performer and priced right, but I like many others am not a Corvette guy. And given the choice of a new ZL1 or a new C8, I would chose the ZL1, because I want 4 seats.
Yea yea, which car is faster? Which car outperforms the other? Which car has more options? Which one is cheaper?

And for the record, only an idiot would pay a $25K markup on a GT350 R or non-R. You make it sound like people paid that much because they thought it was worth that much. You're smarter than that. People paid that much ONLY because they thought the car was going to increase in value. Same with the Hellcat. In fact I'd wager that people paid more in markups for Hellcats than for the Shelbys. Look at where it got them. So stop trying to preach that it is just some awesome vehicle that people had to have. Nobody is that dumb. People pay extra because they think that whatever it is they are buying will increase in value.
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Old 10-18-2019, 08:57 AM   #4010
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Pony cars

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That's why Corvettes are seen as "old guy" cars. It has nothing to do with the styling. It's because dudes in their 20s (i.e., before kids) generally can't afford a Corvette, and by the time they are in their mid-late 30s and established in a good career with a good salary and can actually afford one (like me), they have kids and need back seats (hence the pony car). I had all 3 of my kids in my car over the weekend, and do this regularly. I won't have room for a 2-seater as my daily driver until my kids are grown and out of the house. By the time that happens (my kids are all in elementary school) the C8 will be old and Chevy will be either near the end of C9 or perhaps early C10.

While I don't personally agree with this perception and think the c7 did a lot to change it with a lot of younger buyers, I know a lot of people view the corvette as an old guy car. I've never gotten it since most people I know are young. So yea unfortunately the corvette gets an old man car reputation.

I do agree with your sentiment on the pony cars, while they may not be huge and spacious they definitely have enough room for kids and adult in a pinch with the back seats. While mustangs do have roomier front seats and trunks both of their back seats are uncomfortable but usable. My head hits the roof liner in the camaro and it hits the rear windshield in the mustang lol.
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Old 10-18-2019, 08:58 AM   #4011
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Why because I don't want the Nursing Home Special!
Instead you want the crowd killer special.
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Old 10-18-2019, 09:11 AM   #4012
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I rarely agree with newmoon, but I can't argue that the GT350 is a sexy car. The high rpm Voodoo definitely appeals to a small market, but a market nonetheless. Overall, I really like that Ford pushed the envelope with that car.
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Old 10-18-2019, 09:27 AM   #4013
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Meh, I bought my first Corvette at 32 and still have it 7 years later. Welcomed our first child in Feb. and have no plans to sell it. She can ride in the Camaro until she is old enough to fit in the 5 point harnesses the GS has.
That's awesome.

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Let me know if you're definitely going. Maybe I'll fly out there and join you. And maybe a beer or two afterwards. Shit, after all the grief I give you, that's the least I can do, lol!!

LOL, I was just giving you some shit. The Mustang is definitely more roomy than even the Camaro. At my height tho none of these cars are suitable for having a person in the back.
hahah! For sure man

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Originally Posted by Gunkk View Post
I found this interesting post by Jason Cammisa over on midenginecorvetteforum https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...spective/page2 as a follow up to some comments posted over there following the reviews about the handling and understeer behavior.

Thought the folks here might find it interesting:



I thought it gave an interesting insight to the "reviewer's perspective" on the car. IMO, with only 245mm MPS4S rubber up front it will be very easy to improve front end grip with a set of 305 Cup2s and some camber. So you could say yes I'm interested to see what they come up with for the Grandsport and then Z06. They could very well indeed be nearly world beaters approaching McLaren level performance...

That is some good insight. I have 100% faith that GM will have the performance models dialed in.

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While I don't personally agree with this perception and think the c7 did a lot to change it with a lot of younger buyers, I know a lot of people view the corvette as an old guy car. I've never gotten it since most people I know are young. So yea unfortunately the corvette gets an old man car reputation.

I do agree with your sentiment on the pony cars, while they may not be huge and spacious they definitely have enough room for kids and adult in a pinch with the back seats. While mustangs do have roomier front seats and trunks both of their back seats are uncomfortable but usable. My head hits the roof liner in the camaro and it hits the rear windshield in the mustang lol.
I have a few friends that would love a C7 and could afford one but still won't get one. Either because they have kids or don't want a third car lol. I guess they don't like the idea of having a toy that is for weekends and only used from May-October here lol. Only guy in friend group with a Vette has a C5 Z06 that he bought used.

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I rarely agree with newmoon, but I can't argue that the GT350 is a sexy car. The high rpm Voodoo definitely appeals to a small market, but a market nonetheless. Overall, I really like that Ford pushed the envelope with that car.
The car is good looking and despite the problems it has and cars like the ZL1 being available for less while offering more the GT350 is still selling well enough to find buyers
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 10-18-2019, 10:06 AM   #4014
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Yea yea, which car is faster? Which car outperforms the other? Which car has more options? Which one is cheaper?

And for the record, only an idiot would pay a $25K markup on a GT350 R or non-R. You make it sound like people paid that much because they thought it was worth that much. You're smarter than that. People paid that much ONLY because they thought the car was going to increase in value. Same with the Hellcat. In fact I'd wager that people paid more in markups for Hellcats than for the Shelbys. Look at where it got them. So stop trying to preach that it is just some awesome vehicle that people had to have. Nobody is that dumb. People pay extra because they think that whatever it is they are buying will increase in value.
Maybe in some cases it was investment driven, in others it was I have to have the car now and can't wait. Others money isn't an issue. I wouldn't and wont ever pay above msrp on anything.
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Old 10-18-2019, 10:20 AM   #4015
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is that, what if you don't care for the Camaro? What if you want 4-seats? What other car offers what the GT350 offers for its price range, that you would actually enjoy driving?
Honestly, if the GT350 was priced at SS 1LE levels, I'd be in a GT350. But I couldn't justify an extra 15k+ for an engine.
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Old 10-18-2019, 10:25 AM   #4016
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Msrp

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Maybe in some cases it was investment driven, in others it was I have to have the car now and can't wait. Others money isn't an issue. I wouldn't and wont ever pay above msrp on anything.
I disagree with you a lot, but you got that right!
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Old 10-18-2019, 12:32 PM   #4017
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Maybe in some cases it was investment driven, in others it was I have to have the car now and can't wait. Others money isn't an issue. I wouldn't and wont ever pay above msrp on anything.
I guess it depends on the person and their personality. I did not think the GT350, even the R, was worth MSRP. I kept looking at the price and I couldn't even force myself to seriously consider buying one. I would have bought a GT over the Shelby. When I looked at the performance of that car and what it costed compared to stuff like a used Z06, new ZL1, used Viper, used C6 ZR1, etc, what I found was that the Shelby was far behind everything else in the same price range. So if somebody else looked at that car and thought to themselves "I just gotta have it and I'll pay an extra $25K" then I honestly do not know what to say about that. I feel really bad for them.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:00 AM   #4018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunkk View Post
I found this interesting post by Jason Cammisa over on midenginecorvetteforum https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...spective/page2 as a follow up to some comments posted over there following the reviews about the handling and understeer behavior.

Thought the folks here might find it interesting:



I thought it gave an interesting insight to the "reviewer's perspective" on the car. IMO, with only 245mm MPS4S rubber up front it will be very easy to improve front end grip with a set of 305 Cup2s and some camber. So you could say yes I'm interested to see what they come up with for the Grandsport and then Z06. They could very well indeed be nearly world beaters approaching McLaren level performance...

Thanks for sharing. I have always considered Jasson Camissa to have great auto expertise like Chris Harris, Richard Hammond, Tanner Foust and Randy Pobst.. Jasson spoke very highly about the C7 GS when it was compared VS the Porsche 911 Carrera S. Also loves the 6th gen Camaro SS and consider it better a performer compared to the BMW M4, also he has been very enthusiastic about the SS1LE and ZL1 performance. I consider him very objective on his commentaries with great car expertise
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