[ember1205]

Originally Posted by wjones14

Actually, no. For the reliability section, I marked ZERO issues. So my reply has nothing to do with the low reliability rating. Others in this thread have said the low rating is mainly due to automatic transmission issues. I agree with that's probably the case - I don't have an automatic transmission, and have had zero issues. Even in this forum where most members are Camaro enthusiasts, there are a lot of threads about transmission shudder and other issues. So, can you really blame CR for reporting that?

You don't have to like CR. It's just an additional tool to use while comparison shopping. If someone wants to rely on enthusiast forums for their information, there's nothing wrong with that. The only problem is that forum information is generally anecdotal, and not compiled/summarized like the information in CR.

Therein lies the problem with CR (and any other source of "data" like it): There's no meat on them bones. They ask generic questions like "have you had any reliability issues?" What does that even mean? Reliability is something that is measured over time, yet they are asking this of buyers of a brand new product.

Ask questions like "Have you had to have your car serviced under warranty by the dealer?" "How much did it cost and what major component was the repair related to?" "How many miles were on the odometer at the time of the service visit?"

2016 is a "year one" car and is 100% expected to have more issues than something a couple of model years down the road, with many of the issues not even showing up until some time into the future.

CR is historical data. It does not point to the future in most situations because, by the time you have enough data from history to start plotting future expectations, things change and you have to start all over again. If you focus on very specific positive and negative traits, you can develop your own future expectations based on what has changed since their data was collected.

I also fully agree that enthusiast forum information is generally anecdotal with little hard data, and none of it is compiled together.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by wjones14

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...liability-faq/

Thanks, I've read through it and it's a sensible approach if that's what they actually do.

I'm sure the negative recommendation is mostly due to the A8, which was a mistake of a magnitude no company can afford without severe reputation loss. There is a definite difference in the target audiences of these cars, too, I'm sure no Toyota 86 owner complained about how anemic their engines were, for example.

On the other hand, the absolutely outstanding owner satisfaction rating does not seem to be factored in with a large enough weight, to me, this would be crucial. Yeah, someone may mention a panel gap ("body integrity") or ride quality with runflats ("suspension"), yet these don't tell any kind of story.

If CR allowed responders themselves to apply a weighting to their own observations, results would be more accurate, mere mentions should not be counted all the same.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Thanks, I've read through it and it's a sensible approach if that's what they actually do.

I'm sure the negative recommendation is mostly due to the A8, which was a mistake of a magnitude no company can afford without severe reputation loss. There is a definite difference in the target audiences of these cars, too, I'm sure no Toyota 86 owner complained about how anemic their engines were, for example.

On the other hand, the absolutely outstanding owner satisfaction rating does not seem to be factored in with a large enough weight, to me, this would be crucial. Yeah, someone may mention a panel gap ("body integrity") or ride quality with runflats ("suspension"), yet these don't tell any kind of story.

If CR allowed responders themselves to apply a weighting to their own observations, results would be more accurate, mere mentions should not be counted all the same.

But there is no appreciable amount of data. By their own admission, their sample size is miniscule - "329,000 vehicles in our 2020 surveys, detailing 2000 to 2020 models." If we were to assume even breakdown by model year, that's 16,500 cars from each model year.

Let's assume that the complete list of manufacturers is: Chevy, Cadillac, GMC, Buick, Ford, Lincoln, Dodge (inclusive of RAM), Fiat, Subaru, Honda, Acura, Toyota, Lexus, Infinity, Nissan, Land Rover, Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, VW, Jeep, Audi, Volvo, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Chrysler, and Mini. That's 28 of what are arguably the most common and well-known brands on the roads. If we again assume equal division among all manufacturers, that's less than 600 cars from each manufacturer, for each model year. Split that among the various models within a brand and you end up with what? MAYBE 100 of any one specific model but not accounting for differing trim levels? That number effectively represents the ANNUAL sales numbers per dealership on most models!

CR is not a comprehensive review, and owners that respond are more likely to respond because they want to complain as opposed to wanting to praise.

Viewed in another light, 329,000 surveys sent out for 2020 represents .1% of the US population. That's one tenth of one percent.

Could there be useful information to be had at the hands of CR? Sure. But, you have to take their information with a grain of salt by knowing that you are not being shown data that represents a true sample size of any specific car out there.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by ember1205

But there is no appreciable amount of data. By their own admission, their sample size is miniscule - "329,000 vehicles in our 2020 surveys, detailing 2000 to 2020 models." If we were to assume even breakdown by model year, that's 16,500 cars from each model year.

Let's assume that the complete list of manufacturers is: Chevy, Cadillac, GMC, Buick, Ford, Lincoln, Dodge (inclusive of RAM), Fiat, Subaru, Honda, Acura, Toyota, Lexus, Infinity, Nissan, Land Rover, Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, VW, Jeep, Audi, Volvo, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Chrysler, and Mini. That's 28 of what are arguably the most common and well-known brands on the roads. If we again assume equal division among all manufacturers, that's less than 600 cars from each manufacturer, for each model year. Split that among the various models within a brand and you end up with what? MAYBE 100 of any one specific model but not accounting for differing trim levels? That number effectively represents the ANNUAL sales numbers per dealership on most models!

CR is not a comprehensive review, and owners that respond are more likely to respond because they want to complain as opposed to wanting to praise.

Viewed in another light, 329,000 surveys sent out for 2020 represents .1% of the US population. That's one tenth of one percent.

Could there be useful information to be had at the hands of CR? Sure. But, you have to take their information with a grain of salt by knowing that you are not being shown data that represents a true sample size of any specific car out there.

Absolutely. I didn't mean I was convinced about the veracity of their conclusions, quite the opposite in fact, but that the method in itself looks fundamentally sound. There must be other factors that throw it off, such as the insufficient or completely absent weighting that I mentioned, or the less than significant sample size that you have brought up, a very good point indeed.

[metros11]

Mine's at 15k miles and in terms of reliability it's been fine. With one glaring exception, the paint.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

FACT: Consumer Report gave Toyota Matrix Rave reviews. Consumer Report gave Pontiac Vibe mediocre reviews in a different issue of the magazine. How can that be when they are the same exact vehicle built on the same assembly line. One had a Pontiac badge yet the other had a Toyota badge. Somebody was getting paid off. When Toyota had the runaway stuck gas pedal issue...guess who came forth and protected Toyota?

[Wobble Goat]

Consumer Reports, Car & Driver, Road & Track; they are all garbage! Road & Track picked the Hyundai Veloster as the best performance car of 2020... these were the cars they "tested": BMW M2, C8, Lambo Hurican Evo, Lexus RC F, Lotus Evora GT, Miata RF, McLaren 600LT Spider, GT-R Nismo, Porsche 911, new Supra. NOT ONLY did they consider a Hyundai Veloster a sports car and group it up against a C8, Lamborghini, and Mclaren, they CHOSE IT over those cars! And you want to base any of your decisions on those ass clowns?

Speaking to owners that put miles on their vehicles and/or reading owners' gripes on vehicle specific forums are the only ways to get that comfy feeling that the car you like is worth buying. I was about to buy a Challenger SRT-8 before my SS until I had 2 shitty dealership experiences, (they tried selling me a car that had valve tap when they started it; the f*cking salesman said, "well it will have a full warranty when you buy it"). Then I did some research and discovered the issue linked below.


I bought my 2017 SS m6 last year in May with 12k miles on it and I have discovered some quirks now that I'm up to 23k miles:

• NPP exhaust software malfunction keeping the car in "stealth mode" because the feature disappears until turning the car off for a couple mins then restarting.

• The car suddenly not recognizing the key fob when you park, and now you can't lock your doors until you wait a couple mins for the computer to reset.

• The annoying skip shift.

• The only REAL issues I'd be concerned about and look for is the "axle shaft bolt" issue and the heat soak start issue.

[pauly1119]

The only issue I have found with my 2018 is I don't use it enough. Other then that same as every other car I have ever owned.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Wobble Goat

Consumer Reports, Car & Driver, Road & Track; they are all garbage! Road & Track picked the Hyundai Veloster as the best performance car of 2020... these were the cars they "tested": BMW M2, C8, Lambo Hurican Evo, Lexus RC F, Lotus Evora GT, Miata RF, McLaren 600LT Spider, GT-R Nismo, Porsche 911, new Supra. NOT ONLY did they consider a Hyundai Veloster a sports car and group it up against a C8, Lamborghini, and Mclaren, they CHOSE IT over those cars! And you want to base any of your decisions on those ass clowns?

Well it's definitely dumb to consider a Veloster N a sports car, but I'd be curious why their decision is like that. If they have to pick something from Kia/Hyundai to go against these, I think the Stinger would be more appropriate.

Half of the cars listed are the ones normal people can't even afford. I know someone with a Veloster N and it's a peppy little hatchback for a good value, and like a lot of hot hatches, it's very tuner-friendly.

Sent from toaster or something

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Well it's definitely dumb to consider a Veloster N a sports car, but I'd be curious why their decision is like that. If they have to pick something from Kia/Hyundai to go against these, I think the Stinger would be more appropriate.

Half of the cars listed are the ones normal people can't even afford. I know someone with a Veloster N and it's a peppy little hatchback for a good value, and like a lot of hot hatches, it's very tuner-friendly.

Sent from toaster or something

Somebody got paid.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by Wobble Goat

Consumer Reports, Car & Driver, Road & Track; they are all garbage! Road & Track picked the Hyundai Veloster as the best performance car of 2020... these were the cars they "tested": BMW M2, C8, Lambo Hurican Evo, Lexus RC F, Lotus Evora GT, Miata RF, McLaren 600LT Spider, GT-R Nismo, Porsche 911, new Supra. NOT ONLY did they consider a Hyundai Veloster a sports car and group it up against a C8, Lamborghini, and Mclaren, they CHOSE IT over those cars! And you want to base any of your decisions on those ass clowns?

Speaking to owners that put miles on their vehicles and/or reading owners' gripes on vehicle specific forums are the only ways to get that comfy feeling that the car you like is worth buying. I was about to buy a Challenger SRT-8 before my SS until I had 2 shitty dealership experiences, (they tried selling me a car that had valve tap when they started it; the f*cking salesman said, "well it will have a full warranty when you buy it"). Then I did some research and discovered the issue linked below.


I bought my 2017 SS m6 last year in May with 12k miles on it and I have discovered some quirks now that I'm up to 23k miles:

• NPP exhaust software malfunction keeping the car in "stealth mode" because the feature disappears until turning the car off for a couple mins then restarting.

• The car suddenly not recognizing the key fob when you park, and now you can't lock your doors until you wait a couple mins for the computer to reset.

• The annoying skip shift.

• The only REAL issues I'd be concerned about and look for is the "axle shaft bolt" issue and the heat soak start issue.

Lord have mercy...Please don't tell me Dodge is using some effing Chinese lifters in those Hemis. He was just joking...right?

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Somebody got paid.

Wouldn't be surprised, but again, curious to see the process, if there is one.

[N Camarolina]

I'm not claiming to be a Veloster fan, but have you guys actually read the article the R&T article where they picked it as Performance Car of the Year?

A lot of it hinged on performance that you could actually tap on roads at reasonable speeds, without the need to take it to the track (higher speeds) in order to get the point where the chassis felt lively. Most of the cars tested were so capable that on back roads at reasonable speeds (< 2x the speed limit) they weren't deemed by the reviewers to be much fun.

I think my 1LE is a bit over-kill for roads, but I'm OK with that because I'll be taking it to the track!

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

I'm not claiming to be a Veloster fan, but have you guys actually read the article the R&T article where they picked it as Performance Car of the Year?

A lot of it hinged on performance that you could actually tap on roads at reasonable speeds, without the need to take it to the track (higher speeds) in order to get the point where the chassis felt lively. Most of the cars tested were so capable that on back roads at reasonable speeds (< 2x the speed limit) they weren't deemed by the reviewers to be much fun.

I think my 1LE is a bit over-kill for roads, but I'm OK with that because I'll be taking it to the track!

So, the performance car of the year honors go to a car that you can drive at the edge of its abilities on public roads? In other words, a ricer...