[crysalis_01]

Why does the he need an excuse? The 350 is doing what its supposed to do; give Mustang buyers a car that they want and purchase. Are some buyers then selling them and trading them in? Sure, but if they weren't moving then Ford wouldn't keep building them. It's moving so well that it's initial run was extended again and again. It's a car that doesnt need incentives to move, in fact the opposite, it can move even with ridiculous AMV's (which paying is stupid beyond belief). So, the desire is there and can't reasonably be denied.

Is it the king of the performance hill? No. Does it need to be? Apparently not. Would it be nice if it were? Yeah.

Compared to ZL1 and ZL1 1LE, 350 and 350R come up short in performance. A win is a win and a loss is a loss no matter the circumstances (e.g. NA, FI, etc). Just like if the 500 comes out and manages to outperform ZL1, the circumstances of "ZL1 was already out and it took the 500 long enough to respond" won't matter because a win is a win and a loss is a loss.

Then gen 7 will come out and people can attach their feelings to those machines as well and this little feud can continue as it always has.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Why does the he need an excuse? The 350 is doing what its supposed to do; give Mustang buyers a car that they want and purchase. Are some buyers then selling them and trading them in? Sure, but if they weren't moving then Ford wouldn't keep building them. It's moving so well that it's initial run was extended again and again. It's a car that doesnt need incentives to move, in fact the opposite, it can move even with ridiculous AMV's (which paying is stupid beyond belief). So, the desire is there and can't reasonably be denied.

Is it the king of the performance hill? No. Does it need to be? Apparently not. Would it be nice if it were? Yeah.

Compared to ZL1 and ZL1 1LE, 350 and 350R come up short in performance. A win is a win and a loss is a loss no matter the circumstances (e.g. NA, FI, etc). Just like if the 500 comes out and manages to outperform ZL1, the circumstances of "ZL1 was already out and it took the 500 long enough to respond" won't matter because a win is a win and a loss is a loss.

Then gen 7 will come out and people can attach their feelings to those machines as well and this little feud can continue as it always has.

Ask him why he needs an excuse. He's the one throwing them left and right.

I fully expect the GT500 to be faster than the ZL1. At least the M6 ZL1. The A10 might give it a run for it's money. That is assuming the GT500 is manual trans only like it always has been. I don't see Ford venturing away from that so it's safe to say that the A10 will put up a good fight in a straight line. I doubt the GT500 will beat the ZL1 1LE on the track tho. Either way I won't care if the GT500 beats both. It damn well should. If it can't after all this time and after how many times the release has been pushed back then that just shows how impressive the ZL1 really is. And it'll show exactly how long and how much work it took for the competition to catch up. By the time it is out we'll be expecting the next Gen ZL1 anyway as the 6th Gen Zl1 will pretty much be old news. LOL!! So nice try. But if it loses then I'll gladly say it lost.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

The R is a better balanced better handling car than the ZL1 its not some immeasurable opinion.

Just as Motor trend picked the gen5 ZL1 as the winner despite getting raped on the drag strip and losing on the road course.

Stop that nonsense!

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Why does the he need an excuse? The 350 is doing what its supposed to do; give Mustang buyers a car that they want and purchase. Are some buyers then selling them and trading them in? Sure, but if they weren't moving then Ford wouldn't keep building them. It's moving so well that it's initial run was extended again and again. It's a car that doesnt need incentives to move, in fact the opposite, it can move even with ridiculous AMV's (which paying is stupid beyond belief). So, the desire is there and can't reasonably be denied.

Is it the king of the performance hill? No. Does it need to be? Apparently not. Would it be nice if it were? Yeah.

Compared to ZL1 and ZL1 1LE, 350 and 350R come up short in performance. A win is a win and a loss is a loss no matter the circumstances (e.g. NA, FI, etc). Just like if the 500 comes out and manages to outperform ZL1, the circumstances of "ZL1 was already out and it took the 500 long enough to respond" won't matter because a win is a win and a loss is a loss.

Then gen 7 will come out and people can attach their feelings to those machines as well and this little feud can continue as it always has.

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Folks just can't understand that the R was an NA answer to the Z28, the new 500 will be the answer to the ZL1. If the new 500 sports 750hp and a DCT, runs better times in every measurable metric, will this forum not use the power and technology advantage excuse? I'll be watching lol?

If the new 500 fails to knock off the ZL1 then this forum can brag, boast, taunt, etc, etc, and it will all be deserving, but comparing a car which has a 124hp, and 221tq advantage to the present manual R is just plain ridiculous.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

So I guess now supercharger makes a track car.

He’s obviously trolling you guys. He’s not that dumb

Agreed. This tread was moving in a much better direction, and then he comes in trolling and it goes to hell.

I hope this gets addressed, it doesn't add any value to the forum.....quite the opposite.

[Koldunic]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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If the new 500 fails to knock off the ZL1 then this forum can brag, boast, taunt, etc, etc, and it will all be deserving, but comparing a car which has a 124hp, and 221tq advantage to the present manual R is just plain ridiculous.

Indeed. But my ZL1 1LE cost less than the GT350R I almost bought.

When It comes to comparison, nobody will ever always agree.

I am sure it’s the things on the Mustang forums and any other cars forums.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Why does the he need an excuse? The 350 is doing what its supposed to do; give Mustang buyers a car that they want and purchase. Are some buyers then selling them and trading them in? Sure, but if they weren't moving then Ford wouldn't keep building them. It's moving so well that it's initial run was extended again and again. It's a car that doesnt need incentives to move, in fact the opposite, it can move even with ridiculous AMV's (which paying is stupid beyond belief). So, the desire is there and can't reasonably be denied.

Is it the king of the performance hill? No. Does it need to be? Apparently not. Would it be nice if it were? Yeah.

Compared to ZL1 and ZL1 1LE, 350 and 350R come up short in performance. A win is a win and a loss is a loss no matter the circumstances (e.g. NA, FI, etc). Just like if the 500 comes out and manages to outperform ZL1, the circumstances of "ZL1 was already out and it took the 500 long enough to respond" won't matter because a win is a win and a loss is a loss.

Then gen 7 will come out and people can attach their feelings to those machines as well and this little feud can continue as it always has.

Very nice, reasoned and objective point of view here, although I do agree with BlaqWhole that the reason FCFB keeps getting his excuses shredded is the fact that he keeps tossing them out there. The Shelby GT350 and soon(?) the GT500 ARE doing what they are intended to do...create showroom traffic and get people to buy something else more profitable. That is the basis of the whole Halo concept. Every company does it on multiple levels. “Come in and see the new Chevrolet Bolt EV or Volt, drive out with a Malibu or Cruze”.

As for extending the GT350? I’m not totally convinced that was totally intentional. I think Ford wanted to have the GT500 and the S650 both out earlier than they will be. But since those programs both have experienced a delay or two, it only makes sense to continue GT350. As a “Plan B” that does not suck at all.

I think a lot of the appeal of the Shelby GT350 (and GT500) is the Shelby name. Anybody who follows performance cars, especially traditional pony cars, knows the Shelby name. Being able to say, “Yeah, it’;s a Shelby” carries a lot of traction. That is something Ford does far better than Chevy. With Chevy you have to have the RPO decoder ring, so really, only those already “in the club” get the significance of ZL1 or 1LE or Z06.

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Folks just can't understand that the R was an NA answer to the Z28, the new 500 will be the answer to the ZL1. If the new 500 sports 750hp and a DCT, runs better times in every measurable metric, will this forum not use the power and technology advantage excuse? I'll be watching lol?

If the new 500 fails to knock off the ZL1 then this forum can brag, boast, taunt, etc, etc, and it will all be deserving, but comparing a car which has a 124hp, and 221tq advantage to the present manual R is just plain ridiculous.

The R being the answer to the Z28 is one of the problems Ford is dealing with and, in my personal and professional opinion, part of the reason for the GT500 delay. You don’t introduce a new halo vehicle to compete with a car that you know is going away. Ford had to know that Z28 was going away, because they purchase the same industry forecast information that GM purchases and it clearly indicated that Z28 would not be in the Camaro portfolio year one of the Alpha architecture. Why fight ghosts? Ford clearly underestimated the impact of Camaro moving from Zeta to Alpha and only figured on an incremental improvement in performance for SS and 1LE. They probably projected where a 6th Gen Z28 would fall on the performance grid and targeted that, expecting to be ahead of the game. Then 6th Gen SS and 1LE happened and they had to be thinking “WTF?!?!”. It put them in the uncomfortable position of needing to outfit the ‘18 GT PP1 and PP2 to compete with SS and 1LE without outperforming the GT350.

Depending on what metric you are focusing on, the difference between GT350 and either SS or 1LE is razor thin, leaving Ford very little wiggle room to place the ‘18 GT PP1 and PP2. We’re seeing that struggle play out live right now. So it seems that development of GT500 has more than likely been affected with more focus on making certain it is aiming high enough. Thus the delay. Things should be a bit more settled now, since there isn’t a major platform shift coming to Camaro that would bite Ford in the ass again. Ford should surpass ZL1 performance with GT500. If I were in Ford Product Development, I would target Z06 performance, not ZL1.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ask him why he needs an excuse. He's the one throwing them left and right.

I fully expect the GT500 to be faster than the ZL1. At least the M6 ZL1. The A10 might give it a run for it's money. That is assuming the GT500 is manual trans only like it always has been. I don't see Ford venturing away from that so it's safe to say that the A10 will put up a good fight in a straight line. I doubt the GT500 will beat the ZL1 1LE on the track tho. Either way I won't care if the GT500 beats both. It damn well should. If it can't after all this time and after how many times the release has been pushed back then that just shows how impressive the ZL1 really is. And it'll show exactly how long and how much work it took for the competition to catch up. By the time it is out we'll be expecting the next Gen ZL1 anyway as the 6th Gen Zl1 will pretty much be old news. LOL!! So nice try. But if it loses then I'll gladly say it lost.

I am not a betting man, but this is one where I would not hesitate to place some serious chips. Expect GT500 to have either a 7-spd DCT or a 10AT. Who’d-a-thunk 5 or 10 years ago that Porsche would all but eliminate manual transmissions?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Folks just can't understand that the R was an NA answer to the Z28, the new 500 will be the answer to the ZL1. If the new 500 sports 750hp and a DCT, runs better times in every measurable metric, will this forum not use the power and technology advantage excuse? I'll be watching lol?

If the new 500 fails to knock off the ZL1 then this forum can brag, boast, taunt, etc, etc, and it will all be deserving, but comparing a car which has a 124hp, and 221tq advantage to the present manual R is just plain ridiculous.

It doesn't matter who or what the R was designed to take on. The fact is that Chevy made a better performing, faster car with more options and made it for less money. Maybe instead of fighting backwards Ford should have been fighting for what the future would bring. I mean, who attacks a car that is in it's last year of production with you new platform? That is just stupid. The settled for mediocrity and that is exactly what they got.

And none of us will use any excuse if the GT500 beats the ZL1. We all have said on multiple occasions that the GT500 should in fact be faster. And after all this time, if the GT500 doesn't beat the ZL1, then you bet your ass we're gonna brag, boast, taunt, etc. Because there will be no excuse whatsoever and you know it. As far as comparing cars is concerned, if it was that ridiculous, then why are you and all the Mustang guys getting all defensive? Face it, you were hoping the R would beat the ZL1. ALl the Mustang guys were. You got handed a loss and now you have a multitude of excuses.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Agreed. This tread was moving in a much better direction, and then he comes in trolling and it goes to hell.

I hope this gets addressed, it doesn't add any value to the forum.....quite the opposite.

I actually hope it gets addressed also. Even I toned it down a lot these past few weeks. Just for him to start throwing insults and talking shit about the Camaro. I wonder why he hasn't been booted yet...

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It doesn't matter who or what the R was designed to take on. The fact is that Chevy made a better performing, faster car with more options and made it for less money. Maybe instead of fighting backwards Ford should have been fighting for what the future would bring. I mean, who attacks a car that is in it's last year of production with you new platform? That is just stupid. The settled for mediocrity and that is exactly what they got.

And none of us will use any excuse if the GT500 beats the ZL1. We all have said on multiple occasions that the GT500 should in fact be faster. And after all this time, if the GT500 doesn't beat the ZL1, then you bet your ass we're gonna brag, boast, taunt, etc. Because there will be no excuse whatsoever and you know it. As far as comparing cars is concerned, if it was that ridiculous, then why are you and all the Mustang guys getting all defensive? Face it, you were hoping the R would beat the ZL1. ALl the Mustang guys were. You got handed a loss and now you have a multitude of excuses.


I actually hope it gets addressed also. Even I toned it down a lot these past few weeks. Just for him to start throwing insults and talking shit about the Camaro. I wonder why he hasn't been booted yet...

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As you paint yourself and the forum into the corner, we will revisit all of these quotes once the GT500 is released!

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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As you paint yourself and the forum into the corner, we will revisit all of these quotes once the GT500 is released!

I will be very disappointed if the GT500 is slower than the ZL1.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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As you paint yourself and the forum into the corner, we will revisit all of these quotes once the GT500 is released!

When it’s finally released to rival a 3 year old zl1?

How exciting !

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I will be very disappointed if the GT500 is slower than the ZL1.

There’s no way. Even furd isn’t that pathetic. It’s been way too long.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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As you paint yourself and the forum into the corner, we will revisit all of these quotes once the GT500 is released!

Not sure this is painting into a corner. I think most of us here expect that GT500 will on some, maybe all levels, outperform ZL1. It needs to.