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Old 04-21-2015, 12:48 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Rick802 View Post
There is a 3rd alpha wheelbase...China has available an ats long wheelbase sedan. Here's a write up from autoblog. http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/29/c...hina-official/

According to the article, the ats-l has a wheelbase of 112.5 inches. That splits the difference between the regular ats and cts. Although it's China only as ats, could work for gen 6.
Oh yeah...I think I remember reading about that. Interesting...although I think the 109 would work just fine too.

Its not my daily driver, but sometimes I do pick up my little one in the Camaro and put her car seat in the back behind the passenger seat (with it moved all the way forward). Hopefully I can still do that in the new one.
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:03 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Rick802 View Post
There is a 3rd alpha wheelbase...China has available an ats long wheelbase sedan. Here's a write up from autoblog. http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/29/c...hina-official/

According to the article, the ats-l has a wheelbase of 112.5 inches. That splits the difference between the regular ats and cts. Although it's China only as ats, could work for gen 6.
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Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
Oh yeah...I think I remember reading about that. Interesting...although I think the 109 would work just fine too.

Its not my daily driver, but sometimes I do pick up my little one in the Camaro and put her car seat in the back behind the passenger seat (with it moved all the way forward). Hopefully I can still do that in the new one.
this is very very interesting because if we assume the latest pictures of the alleged Turbo 4, have 20 inch rims, my calculations, based on two scales, both have wheelbase at 112.56 inches. The thing is my radius measurements are from the edge of the rim, not sure if that is how they are sized.

I have another model that attempts a wheel measurement from inside to inside of the outer lip of the rim, along with assumed 18 inch wheels that gives a 109.75inch wheelbase.

so...who knows? Do we know what size wheels this one has: I'm guessing 18, which puts it on ATS wheelbase.

It's all rudimentary anyway, all BS, just fun trying to figure it out - but 109.3 is probably it.
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:27 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by DenverTaco07 View Post
this is very very interesting because if we assume the latest pictures of the alleged Turbo 4, have 20 inch rims, my calculations, based on two scales, both have wheelbase at 112.56 inches. The thing is my radius measurements are from the edge of the rim, not sure if that is how they are sized.

I have another model that attempts a wheel measurement from inside to inside of the outer lip of the rim, along with assumed 18 inch wheels that gives a 109.75inch wheelbase.

so...who knows? Do we know what size wheels this one has: I'm guessing 18, which puts it on ATS wheelbase.

It's all rudimentary anyway, all BS, just fun trying to figure it out - but 109.3 is probably it.
I would bet money that bolt pattern is 5 x 120mm just like the 5th gen if you wanted to try and guess wheel sizes that way! That picture is pretty straight on but there might be a little perspective distortion.
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:33 PM   #326
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Those look like 18s to me... Maybe even 17s!!
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Old 04-21-2015, 06:05 PM   #327
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I very well believe that they can build this car on the Alpha platform, using all of the technology in strength and weight savings and still sell the base model in the low $20K range.

Keep in mind that the "premium" materials you are speaking of, are those put into the Cadillacs, which is competing in a totally different market. The leather, the gadgets, etc. Just for example, the car a traded in for my '11 SS was an '06 STS. My STS was more of a base model, v6, no nav. But it had passive entry, push button start, remote start, valet mode, auto climate control. Although the dash and much of the interior pieces were indeed plastic, it was a soft touch sort of plastic, and of course it was as quiet as a church mouse.

So, the base Camaro will have cloth seats, and the bare essentials in creature comforts. The Camaro lives in a completely different, and much larger market than the Cadillacs. They will also sell many,many more Camaros. In the world of mass production, the more you make and sell, the lower the per unit cost comes out to be, and you can price them a little closer to vest on the profit margin.
If the Gen6 is bare bones for creature comforts, it will be the biggest failure of 2016. The crappiest Kia now sets the bar for what you can expect in a car. Bare bones doesn't cut it anymore.

Also keep in mind for allll these creature comforts, the weight difference between a 1SS and 2SS is only about 40 pounds. Leather and a bunch of wires and controllers don't weigh that much.

You are right on the basics, the more you can produce the lower the piece price. But GM's model is farrrr more complex than that. If your model held true you could just price the Corvette at $25,000 and you would sell a crap load of them and make even MORE money. It doesn't quite work out like that. There is a lot more too it than that.

Yes, by selecting Alpha and likely putting the 2.0T as the base engine now, they will likely hold the base price. But don't confuse that with now adding additional premium materials and still holding price simply because the low volume Camaro also has some of those parts. Just because the ATS and CTS aren't selling, don't lose sight of the fact they were supposed to sell much better. I would expect GM at one point hoped the ATS would far outsell the Camaro.
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Old 04-21-2015, 08:50 PM   #328
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If the Gen6 is bare bones for creature comforts, it will be the biggest failure of 2016. The crappiest Kia now sets the bar for what you can expect in a car. Bare bones doesn't cut it anymore.

Also keep in mind for allll these creature comforts, the weight difference between a 1SS and 2SS is only about 40 pounds. Leather and a bunch of wires and controllers don't weigh that much.

You are right on the basics, the more you can produce the lower the piece price. But GM's model is farrrr more complex than that. If your model held true you could just price the Corvette at $25,000 and you would sell a crap load of them and make even MORE money. It doesn't quite work out like that. There is a lot more too it than that.

Yes, by selecting Alpha and likely putting the 2.0T as the base engine now, they will likely hold the base price. But don't confuse that with now adding additional premium materials and still holding price simply because the low volume Camaro also has some of those parts. Just because the ATS and CTS aren't selling, don't lose sight of the fact they were supposed to sell much better. I would expect GM at one point hoped the ATS would far outsell the Camaro.
As a brand Cadillac is lost. The reason why the Camaro and Vette sell is because of the styling and performance. People that buy German and Japanese luxury sedans don't even consider Cadillac. It's ironic because the new Cadillac sedans are lighter and handle better than their counterparts. The Escalade sells well because of the image it projects. Cadillac's sedans styling just isn't doing it, not saying the 3 Series of the worlds light up design department either. From all the accounts I've read the F30 BMW 3 series is a German Camry with rwd. It's nothing special, but I guess now that the young guys are getting older, they need easier car to drive with less "weightness" of steering and more Buick like ride. I always thought BMW stood for the ultimate driving machine. Seems hardly like that right now with how numb their steering is in their cars.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:29 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
If the Gen6 is bare bones for creature comforts, it will be the biggest failure of 2016. The crappiest Kia now sets the bar for what you can expect in a car. Bare bones doesn't cut it anymore.

Also keep in mind for allll these creature comforts, the weight difference between a 1SS and 2SS is only about 40 pounds. Leather and a bunch of wires and controllers don't weigh that much.

You are right on the basics, the more you can produce the lower the piece price. But GM's model is farrrr more complex than that. If your model held true you could just price the Corvette at $25,000 and you would sell a crap load of them and make even MORE money. It doesn't quite work out like that. There is a lot more too it than that.

Yes, by selecting Alpha and likely putting the 2.0T as the base engine now, they will likely hold the base price. But don't confuse that with now adding additional premium materials and still holding price simply because the low volume Camaro also has some of those parts. Just because the ATS and CTS aren't selling, don't lose sight of the fact they were supposed to sell much better. I would expect GM at one point hoped the ATS would far outsell the Camaro.

I had to have the leather and the RS package on mine.
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:07 AM   #330
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As a brand Cadillac is lost. The reason why the Camaro and Vette sell is because of the styling and performance. People that buy German and Japanese luxury sedans don't even consider Cadillac. It's ironic because the new Cadillac sedans are lighter and handle better than their counterparts. The Escalade sells well because of the image it projects. Cadillac's sedans styling just isn't doing it, not saying the 3 Series of the worlds light up design department either. From all the accounts I've read the F30 BMW 3 series is a German Camry with rwd. It's nothing special, but I guess now that the young guys are getting older, they need easier car to drive with less "weightness" of steering and more Buick like ride. I always thought BMW stood for the ultimate driving machine. Seems hardly like that right now with how numb their steering is in their cars.
As far as the F30 goes, you are pretty much on target. The car still be optioned to give the driver something to enjoy (namely DHP or Sport line), but it has gradually changed to match its biggest buyer, older American drivers. The same ones that drove Cadillacs before. Now Cadillac has made good driving/handling cars but there's no market for them in the segment anymore, especially with a lot of BMW owners not considering any domestic as competition regardless of the facts. BMW still can build amazing cars, but the current 3 series is not the ultimate driving machine anymore.
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Old 04-22-2015, 05:25 AM   #331
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"Premium materials", to an engineer...is aluminum, magnesium, composites, carbon fiber. Construction materials, not interior trim work. These are all expensive, but required, to save weight if the size of the car does not change.

In that respect, Number 3 was suggesting it would be difficult to keep the car affordable at the V6, T4 levels.
That's just it, yes these are 'premuim materials, but not so much the 'exotic' materials they were even a decade ago. They're everywhere now, almost to the point of being industry standard.
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Old 04-22-2015, 05:44 AM   #332
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If the Gen6 is bare bones for creature comforts, it will be the biggest failure of 2016. The crappiest Kia now sets the bar for what you can expect in a car. Bare bones doesn't cut it anymore.

Also keep in mind for allll these creature comforts, the weight difference between a 1SS and 2SS is only about 40 pounds. Leather and a bunch of wires and controllers don't weigh that much.

You are right on the basics, the more you can produce the lower the piece price. But GM's model is farrrr more complex than that. If your model held true you could just price the Corvette at $25,000 and you would sell a crap load of them and make even MORE money. It doesn't quite work out like that. There is a lot more too it than that.

Yes, by selecting Alpha and likely putting the 2.0T as the base engine now, they will likely hold the base price. But don't confuse that with now adding additional premium materials and still holding price simply because the low volume Camaro also has some of those parts. Just because the ATS and CTS aren't selling, don't lose sight of the fact they were supposed to sell much better. I would expect GM at one point hoped the ATS would far outsell the Camaro.
If they could build a Corvette for $20K, they would happily sell a crap load of them for $25K each. But as it is, they will be able to build a Camaro for around that, and they will sell a crap load of them. Thus they can price them out closer to the margin and still make a tidy profit. Of course, the more options, the greater the margin.

I don't know if they'll sell the base model for $22 in '16. Probably more like $24. But they will be able to keep the prospective models within the market range and demographic the car currently resides. Even with all of the upgrades to the Corvette in '14, it still listed within a couple of grand of the outgoing generation, the Camaro will be no different.
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Old 04-22-2015, 07:19 AM   #333
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Just for the sake of the size topic...

i would call an FR-S with a 101in wheelbase...small, maybe even very small.

Also, as much as i like the 5th, it is on the big side, so trimming it up is welcomed IMO.

Nice comparison photo Angrybird...can't argue with that one very much considering it is almost in the same exact spot as the prototype. Scale looks pretty damn right on.
FR-S is tiny. The back seats are in there for insurance reasons, not really for actual use.

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Keep in mind Alpha doesn't really have 2 sizes. It has 2 wheel bases. The other difference in CTS vs ATS are done with track adjustments in the chassis and making the body wider. Pretty sure the front floor pan is common for both. But that is what common architecture means.
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The Alpha chassis is supposed to have two versions available. Short wheel base and Long wheel base. I don't see GM creating multiple versions with different lengths for different vehicles. It would add extra cost and complication.

But they can add track width more easily, and in the case of the Camaro it was already stated that they have.
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There is a 3rd alpha wheelbase...China has available an ats long wheelbase sedan. Here's a write up from autoblog. http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/29/c...hina-official/

According to the article, the ats-l has a wheelbase of 112.5 inches. That splits the difference between the regular ats and cts. Although it's China only as ats, could work for gen 6.
We will most likely see a wheelbase around the size of the ATS-L but it won't be derived from the ATS-L since the extra length for that was added behind the driver to give the back seat more leg room. There looks to be more distance from the A pillar to the front wheels giving the Camaro the longer front hood look.


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Old 04-22-2015, 04:58 PM   #334
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Based off of xgnxs's idea about assuming a 5x120 bolt pattern to size wheels yesterday. I tried this in CAD.
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Old 04-22-2015, 06:58 PM   #335
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Based off of xgnxs's idea about assuming a 5x120 bolt pattern to size wheels yesterday. I tried this in CAD.
ok...now finish? What is distance center wheel to center wheel in mm on the same scale? Actually, you can't take the bolt patter measurement that way, you have to go directly across to the center line, ummm...so, if you drew a perfect circle thru the exact center of each bolt hole, then you go exactly in half of circle to get the diameter.

make the scale as large as possible to get the best accuracy. Using the same scale you measured the diameter (I assume you used MM's), then measure the distance front to rear, center of wheel.

We are talking only 2 or 3 inches on a full scale, so I've found that it really is too rudimentary to attempt this - but i'm guessing 109.3 when they reveal.

Something like this, only use the same scale.
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Old 04-22-2015, 07:46 PM   #336
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I'm working on it now. I have seen both. The way i have done it and your way to measure bolt pattern. I wasn't sure which is correct. Thanks for the help.
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