[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle

It's obvious by the length of your post how uniformed you are on direct injection, but sold on what the manufacturers tell you. Not one single DI motor from any company is without issue. That's exactly why they are adding port injection back in to most of them. From valve deposits to broken ring lands, every single manufacturer is having problems and has been addressing the change on the fly as they learn. Oh wait, you said they know everything already. My bad.

Agree! As i had posted before, DI is not without issues. But no 2 DI motors are the same. And it also depends how a vehicle is used and driven. It also depends if it is NA vs boosted. Etc. DI architecture is not new. It has been around since 1902 and used in airplanes. Then Mercedes adopted it in 1995. Etc. There have been some DI motors rushed to the market and even class action suits, but that's a bit different vs manufacturers learning on the fly imo.

In any case, seems that driving a car WOT helps and so do frequent oil changes. Maybe that's why we haven't seen too many issues in performance cars vs regular commuters where folks may change oil once a year?

PS i have not heard of any LT1 broken rings unless boosted to way over 600whp.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Agree! As i had posted before, DI is not without issues. But no 2 DI motors are the same. And it also depends how a vehicle is used and driven. It also depends if it is NA vs boosted. Etc. DI architecture is not new. It has been around since 1902 and used in airplanes. Then Mercedes adopted it in 1995. Etc. There have been some DI motors rushed to the market and even class action suits, but that's a bit different vs manufacturers learning on the fly imo.

In any case, seems that driving a car WOT helps and so do frequent oil changes. Maybe that's why we haven't seen too many issues in performance cars vs regular commuters where folks may change oil once a year?

PS i have not heard of any LT1 broken rings unless boosted to way over 600whp.

The results of preignition in DI engines is not limited to broken rings in forced induction applications. It may be a cause of engine bearing and connecting rod failures, some of which can happen to stock LT1 motors.

As the vid I embedded shows, despite the existence of DI for a long time there are things that are still unknown or closely guarded secrets perhaps. In any case the vid shows clear evidence that oil has a major effect on the potential of DI motors to knock in different ways, and the reduction of knock leads to the computer advancing timing and giving us more power, more efficiency and better reliability.

So I think it's best to take GM's advice and run M1 0w40 ESP, there are many reasons it's better and imo saving a few bucks on an oil change in the context of owning a ~$45k 455 hp sports car seems a little ridiculous.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

IMO he overreacted.

In any case, regardless of the qualities of Valvoline MST it's not the best option, and not the best oil for the LT1.

A lot of the reason is direct injection and preventing preignition events, which depends to a degree on oil choice. 0w40 M1 ESP is low volatility and will reduce the chances of preignition events as well as carbon deposits, and is also easier on cats and emissions equipment as well. It also has good flow at low temps, so it's better for start-up.

Here's one vid explaining some of the issues DI motors can have and it goes over oil's role in this:

Ok thanks, appreciate the link, i do understand the generic DI dilemma - albeit i think LT1/LT4 have held up very well indeed, for many yrs now, even without Mobil 1's new special sauce.

l'd leave the cold start up qualities of 0w vs 5w as irrelavant, as those engines will start up well even with 15w. But i understand why GM would select it as an all around choice just in case somebody uses their car in extreme cold conditions where 0w would provide max protection. Also, aeration is a well known issue with Vettes and their dry sump system going back to C6 and has more to do with oil tank design than oil per se. Regardless, we have wet sumps.

The 3rd listed major benefit is ability to use the same oil for dd and track. That's a big deal for our Vette bros as until now they had to switch from 5w30 to 15w50 and then back again. Royal PITA! But we never had this issue even 4 years ago. It is interesting that Camaro qualified for any 0w40 or 5w40 dexos2 (or Valvoline MST 5w40 or Mobil ESP Formula 5w40), as dual duty oil from day one but Vette had to wait until Mobil 1's new offer. So as much as we are very close cousins, there are obviously some differences in both cars that prevented it.

So, i suspect the real focus here is its chemical formula that would help keeping valves and cats clean? Mobil 1 doesnt highlight this aspect too much, save for stating it is designed to work with modern emission systems. Certainly they dont list it as one of the three key benefits, but rather just as an explanation of their ESP acronym.

So:

1. Why Valvoline MST is not the best option: can you please offer some more info specific to this point. Very interested in your views. Objective, or subjective - it dont matter to me. I suspect you've compared both oils somehow and hence formed an opinion: can you share it please? Thank you in advance!

2. Why would GM not list Mobil 1 oil by name (in car manuals), if indeed it is much superior and (presumably) offers better warrany protection for THEM?!

3. Why would GM still offer other, older oil choices as fully authorized?

4. Why would GM specifically name an oil by name (Valvoline MST) for 3 years if it were to cause any issues?

The last 3 are just my musings reflecting on mysteries of GM official docs and lack of directional transparency wrt new Mobil 1 offer, including that Mobil 1 website mentions Corvette, but not Camaro...

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

The results of preignition in DI engines is not limited to broken rings in forced induction applications. It may be a cause of engine bearing and connecting rod failures, some of which can happen to stock LT1 motors.

As the vid I embedded shows, despite the existence of DI for a long time there are things that are still unknown or closely guarded secrets perhaps. In any case the vid shows clear evidence that oil has a major effect on the potential of DI motors to knock in different ways, and the reduction of knock leads to the computer advancing timing and giving us more power, more efficiency and better reliability.

So I think it's best to take GM's advice and run M1 0w40 ESP, there are many reasons it's better and imo saving a few bucks on an oil change in the context of owning a ~$45k 455 hp sports car seems a little ridiculous.

Agree fully. To this point i change oil in all my vehicles at 3000 miles as the best preventative insurance i know of.

But i can't find any mention of GM actually advising to use Mobil1 over other certified choices.

Not in a Camaro manual. Not in a Vette manual. Not anywhere online.

Tadge's unitial response on the Vette Forum dealt with backward compatibility question for pre 2019 Vettes.
That was it.

His most recent response dealt with a broader question regarding other Dexos2 choices, including 5w40 spec oil.
And he certainly did not recommend to use Mobil1 over other Dexos2 certified choices. Link below.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...dexos-2-a.html

So where is this "GM advice"? Is it real, or assumed?
If the former - please post it. If the latter i can understand how somebody would jump to such conclusion, but that's far from being factual. Cheers!

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Agree fully. To this point i change oil in all my vehicles at 3000 miles as the best preventative insurance i know of.

But i can't find any mention of GM actually advising to use Mobil1 over other certified choices.

Not in a Camaro manual. Not in a Vette manual. Not anywhere online.

Tadge's unitial response on the Vette Forum dealt with backward compatibility question for pre 2019 Vettes.
That was it.

His most recent response dealt with a broader question regarding other Dexos2 choices, including 5w40 spec oil.
And he certainly did not recommend to use Mobil1 over other Dexos2 certified choices. Link below.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...dexos-2-a.html

So where is this "GM advice"? Is it real, or assumed?
If the former - please post it. If the latter i can understand how somebody would jump to such conclusion, but that's far from being factual. Cheers!

Looks like we need an oil sticky... I know this stuff gets buried.

Straight from Al...

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535476

From GM...

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=55

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Looks like we need an oil sticky... I know this stuff gets buried.

Straight from Al...

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535476

From GM...

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=55

Thanks for the links!

Well, the official GM advice is specific to 2019 cars only. Still as clear as mud. No wonder dealers are confused...

Now most importantly, Al's response is very interesting: first and foremost he refers to the owners manual, verbatim, where there is no mention of Mobil1 in any way shape or form. Just a generic specs incl Dexos2.

And then when he refers to the new Mobil1 he calls it "acceptable". Not recommended, preferred, superior, great, better than sliced bread, etc. Nope, simply: "acceptable".

Consequently, that reads like a pretty luke warm response if you ask me and most certainly devoid of any "advice", regarding using this oil vs any other Dexos2 certified oil.

It sort of mirrors Tadge's response on 5w40: basically that it works well above 45F - although this temp doesnt jive with industry wide 5w rating std - so it is a mystery why he offered this data point.

Any more links to get me excited and switch?

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Any more links to get me excited and switch?

No, I've been sucked into enough already... It should be obvious, but maybe not if you haven't watched or understood the vid I posted.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

No, I've been sucked into enough already... It should be obvious, but maybe not if you haven't watched or understood the vid I posted.

I have watched it and it is a very good video, that *rightly* starts with describing LSPI as a problem related to *small turbo engines*. LT1 is neither small nor turbo.
And as i have said before, in 6 years of LT1 production, motor failures have been very rare and mostly limited to after market, high powered modded engines. And mostly to those without upgraded internals. Even LT4s have proven to be extremely robust motors (Z06 cars over heating issue notwithstanding). I actually have not heard of a single LT4 grenading. But it is very possible that i ive missed it. This is all prior to Mobil1 new oil hitting the market.

But, the vid is great and thanks for posting it and maybe you were posting it for the benefit of the turbo guys, in which case: good stuff! Even though the guy keeps repeating that the problem is by and large poorly understood, still. NB nice for that guy to give Valvoline folks a plug!

Now back to LT1 and specifically your repeated comments suggesting that GM clearly recommends Mobil1 0w40 Dexos2 over other approved Dexos2 oils:

Neither Tadge has said it, nor Big Al has said it and owner manuals dont say it either.

Unfortunately, based on all of the above i have no clue as to what you refer to as "obvious". Too bad, as id like to possibly learn something.
Cheers!

[Airfuel]

The 2019 manual states to use 0w-40 oil that meets dexos 2 specs. If not available it gives alternatives.

They do this in case other oils companies come out with that spec.

I use M1 for warranty and the fact that the oil was specifically designed to help with valve deposits that comes with DI motors.

Use whatever makes you sleep well.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Airfuel

The 2019 manual states to use 0w-40 oil that meets dexos 2 specs. If not available it gives alternatives.

They do this in case other oils companies come out with that spec.

I use M1 for warranty and the fact that the oil was specifically designed to help with valve deposits that comes with DI motors.

Use whatever makes you sleep well.

That's exactly the type of info i am after. Can you point me to a GM or Mobil1 source that says this oil has been specifically designed to help with valve deposits please?
I have not been able to find any such statements myself. Thanks!

[TrackClub]

One more question: there appears to be two Mobil1 Dexos2 0w40 oils listed on Dexos2 license website, with 2 different license numbers. One is "ESP" and the other is "ESP Formula" Which one is the NEW oil? Anybody knows? Thanks!

[Airfuel]

The mobil one site states the new oil is low saps, (sulphated ash, phosphorus, sulfur) along with specific cleaning agents to keep engines cleaner. When hi saps vapors gets burned through egr/pcv, they leave deposits on valves, pistons and cats.
This is the oil that is sold in the states.

(edit)Image too small. it says ESP formula.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I have watched it and it is a very good video, that *rightly* starts with describing LSPI as a problem related to *small turbo engines*. LT1 is neither small nor turbo.
And as i have said before, in 6 years of LT1 production, motor failures have been very rare and mostly limited to after market, high powered modded engines. And mostly to those without upgraded internals. Even LT4s have proven to be extremely robust motors (Z06 cars over heating issue notwithstanding). I actually have not heard of a single LT4 grenading. But it is very possible that i ive missed it. This is all prior to Mobil1 new oil hitting the market.

But, the vid is great and thanks for posting it and maybe you were posting it for the benefit of the turbo guys, in which case: good stuff! Even though the guy keeps repeating that the problem is by and large poorly understood, still. NB nice for that guy to give Valvoline folks a plug!

Now back to LT1 and specifically your repeated comments suggesting that GM clearly recommends Mobil1 0w40 Dexos2 over other approved Dexos2 oils:

Neither Tadge has said it, nor Big Al has said it and owner manuals dont say it either.

Unfortunately, based on all of the above i have no clue as to what you refer to as "obvious". Too bad, as id like to possibly learn something.
Cheers!

Reducing the chances of detonation is not an obvious benefit to you?

You apparently DO NOT understand the point that oil in the intake air causes an effective reduction in octane, which can lead to the motor pulling timing, with an accompanying reduction in power and efficiency.

Also, you DO NOT have the information to make you assumption that the LT1 failure are "very rare". Can you point to some data to support your beliefs?

Also, on engine failures, do you have the data to determine the root cause of rotating assembly failures? I.e. whether they were caused by detonation events or tolerances that are off?

The truth is you don't know nearly as much as you claim to know. You are making unproven ASSUMPTIONS. Also, you think because the motor doesn't fail completely that enabling it to run better by effectively raising the octane of the fuel it burns and preventing detonation events isn't a benefit worth talking about?

Look man, I appreciate your interest but you gotta do some research yourself on some things. I'm not here to teach a class, and if I were I want to be paid. If you're NOT going to learn, and NOT going to do any research (sorry, "I can't find it" wears thin), then simply take the advice of experts and run the 0w40 dexos 2 oil the '19+ cars come with.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Reducing the chances of detonation is not an obvious benefit to you?

You apparently DO NOT understand the point that oil in the intake air causes an effective reduction in octane, which can lead to the motor pulling timing, with an accompanying reduction in power and efficiency.

Also, you DO NOT have the information to make you assumption that the LT1 failure are "very rare". Can you point to some data to support your beliefs?

Also, on engine failures, do you have the data to determine the root cause of rotating assembly failures? I.e. whether they were caused by detonation events or tolerances that are off?

The truth is you don't know nearly as much as you claim to know. You are making unproven ASSUMPTIONS. Also, you think because the motor doesn't fail completely that enabling it to run better by effectively raising the octane of the fuel it burns and preventing detonation events isn't a benefit worth talking about?

Look man, I appreciate your interest but you gotta do some research yourself on some things. I'm not here to teach a class, and if I were I want to be paid. If you're NOT going to learn, and NOT going to do any research (sorry, "I can't find it" wears thin), then simply take the advice of experts and run the 0w40 dexos 2 oil the '19+ cars come with.

As President Roland Reagan used to say: here we go again! "Simply take the advice of experts" with not a hint of who they might be, or what they might be saying. Not even a reference to any source that i could "research".

Sort of in line with your prior suggestion to "just follow GM advice".

Or your lack of any explanation to my request for clarification why Valvoline MST is "bad advice"?

Come on man! Do you work for Mobil1???

The only thing you have offered is a vid that pertains to potential issues specific to small turbo motors with extreme compressions and heat. That's like suggesting that there is a direct parallel between an Equinox 1.5L turbo and a Camaro 6.2 NA motor. Let's get real.

But, just in case ive missed something this video offered relative to Mobil1 ESP Formula 0w40 Dexos2 specifically, why not just say it and enrich us all? Does this specific oil raise octane levels? Yes? No? Why? How?

Can you please communicate with FULL sentences and actually share some useful information? Or is this just a game of one upmanship to ya?

NB the vid mentions new oil std which may help protect small turbo motors, but the Camaro Mobil1 oil isnt one of them per Mobil1 website.

As far as stock LT1 failures (or lack of), i have shared my data sources. Thats a lot more then youve been willing to share. Additionally, i used to be part of the Vette community for a decade. Know tons of track rats with C7s at various venues. I am yet to meet a person that has grenaded an LT1 or LT4. PS the only issues i am aware of were a few very early Stingrays and GM blamed defective oil filters.

Anyhow. If you cant offer some specific info relative to my requests, then our dialogue has reached the checkers

Have a great day and cheers!