[jamala00]

Originally Posted by 1fastz28

lets not pretend that petroleum is somehow a clean and environmentally efficient fuel source.

I don't believe anyone tries to hide the fact that petroleum isn't clean energy, but Gov and everyone else would love to pretend that EV's are. That's kind of the point he was getting at. Everyone tries to sell you the fact that EVs are "clean energy" There not...

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by FlukeSS

What no 60-130? Willing to bet a few ICE vehicles on these forums will make that car look stupid. And I know with a good tire and some better experience, my car can probably best that 1/4 mile time with not to much trouble. And I still paid less for my car, with the mods.

My ZL1 walks quickly away from a Model 3 Performance at highway speeds. Remember, these EVs have a single speed transmission so once they are at speed they don't pull as hard. Down low is where they shine, which let's be honest, that is where you spend most of the time driving/accelerating.

Now the Tesla Model S Plaid with its 3 motors and 1020hp fixes all that and still has a single speed transmission. Watch this pull. Silly fast.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by snicko

I've got a Model 3 Perf - Had it almost 2 years. Prior to that I had an Audi S3 for almost 4 years (and prior to that a string of other fast / fun cars).

The Tesla is overpriced for the build quality, but it is a fantastic piece of engineering that offsets it.

The near linear power delivery with AWD makes for seriously giggle inducing accleration.

Its a fantastic road trip car - we've done the NorCal -> SoCal trip a dozen times and done to Palm Springs, up to Tahoe, etc. The Autopilot takes a lot of the fatigue out of driving those long trips. We just drove up to Tahoe in my the truck ('04 2500HD Duramax) and after 6 hrs I was mentally tired from driving the truck - in the Tesla I just plop the autopilot on, keep a hand on the steering wheel and monitor it to make sure its not doing something dumb or dangerous.


The downside, and I think this is where I agree with you on the handling aspects. The handling can best be described as a Frightened Squirrel. The front end is darty, there's very little feedback in the steering, the tires are wowefuly too narrow for its overall weight and the brake provide little to no feedback which makes modulation difficult (for me).

I missed driving something that handled well and was, for lack fo a better term, 'fun' to drive. The Tesla, in its current form, isn't it. The Audi, for me, was a good compromise - it did road trips OK (had adaptive cruise control), but was also fun to drive and toss around.

For me I think teh combination fo the telsa for daily driving / road trips and the SS 1LE for, well.. driving like a hooligan, is a good combination. I dont' think Iw ould want an SS 1LE as my only daily driver. its harsh, loud, trunk access is shitty (I can't fit a bicycle in the trunk or back seat for example).


We may not like it, but electric (or hybrid) is the future. We are the dinosaurs now.

Well said. By the way, I owned both a M3P and SR+ and would drive them back to back all the time. I prefer the handling of the SR+ much better than the M3P. The SR+ only has the rear motor, which removes about 400lbs over the nose and make it feel more like a mid-engine car from a handling perspective. The car also seems handle better on the lighter 18" wheels vs. the 20" boat anchors on the M3P.

I have a CT4V Blackwing now which addresses some of the Camaro visibility and practicality issues but keeps the fun factor with alpha 2 chassis handling, tremec 6 speed, mag ride, exhaust/drive modes, etc. I wait and see what Dodge, Chevy, Cadillac come up with. If they build a desirable performance EV with great handling dynamics, styling, tech, etc. then I would be open.

If they are a bunch of overpriced duds then I may look at a Mustang Dark Horse if I get bored of the Blackwing. They will need to do more than just release a basic EV sedan/coupe. They need to play to their strengths with chassis dynamics and handling. I would like to see a performance RWD only version and put a motor on each wheel since their is typically no LSD/E-diff in EVs. A two-3 speed transmission would be interesting but it would add weight, cost and complexity. If they give it enough power it won't need it.

[CHASLT1]

I am not paying these crazy prices for any EV. 30K is about the max i wanna spend on anything. Only EV i would think of buying is a small S10 size 2 door pickup with at least 350 to 450hp. I would sell the C6 for that. Other than that there is no other car i care to buy.

[pyroguy]

Originally Posted by 1fastz28

lets not pretend that petroleum is somehow a clean and environmentally efficient fuel source.

If this was how every oil rig/drill/pipeline operated, oil would be long gone over 100 years ago. While the mines that extract the lithium look bad, it's the cleanup of the chemicals after they're used up that causes the negative environmental impact.

[Casper the friendly G]

Originally Posted by 1fastz28

lets not pretend that petroleum is somehow a clean and environmentally efficient fuel source.

Lets also not forget that to charge your EV will come from an additional fuel like Petroleum, Natural gas or coal. Lets also not forget is we have no clue how to dispose of these used batteries as they too are highly toxic to the environment.

[Palutz]

Ask 100 voters what products are created from petroleum and maybe 10 will be able to name something besides gasoline. Most people are low information emotional voters so it feels like a losing cause. Elections have consequences ...

Took a 3 hour cruise through Corpus, Mustang Island and Port Aransas this morning and I got more thumbs up than ever before so maybe there is still some hope. No EV could match the experience of the supercharged V8 stuffed in this ZLE.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I don't disagree. Once the novelty of the instant torque and face melting acceleration wore off you are not left with much driving engagement, which is why I sold my Tesla Model 3 Performance for a ZL1. They both have their pros and cons.

My experiences are the same. Also after 60 My Camaro is faster than it which I managed to confirm and my LT1 hit the curves better than the Model 3 Performance I drove a couple years ago. While I am no longer in a position/opportunity to get to drive lots of vehicles like I used too I doubt this will change my thoughts until Tesla comes out with a new gen that is and changes it up to where it fixes these areas.


There was a time when I was open to EVs but when it is crammed down my throat that is when I become defiant. I am keeping my Camaro with my technical no how and friends I can keep this sucker going for a very long time. In 2028 my 40th birthday a Mustang will join it in the stable assuming the wife and I don't need anything else vehicle wise or Chevy actually has another ICE Camaro (which we all probably doubt). Well a truck is needed but that is the goals. Whatever manufacturer sells ICE or exceptions can be made for a Hybrid that does not need to be charged I will buy from them.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by MichaelG

Quietly going 0-60 in 3.1 seconds while your head slams into headrest is pretty cool though

If there is a Camaro EV (2028 give or take) it will be faster than 3.1

Originally Posted by arpad_m

quiet: nope, we want sweet cross-plane crank noise

low maintenance: I enjoy doing maintenance on the car

OTA updates: that one I'll grant to some degree, but at the same time this is a car and not a computer/phone, it's not the primary focus

one pedal driving: like bumper cars in a theme park, not really for the enthusiast but rather the budget/convenience conscious (and even I am a borderline dissenter with my automatic trans, although I did have a reason for not going with the M6)

tech/infotainment: again, not the primary focus but just a nice to have, what enthusiast would trade engine noise and feel for the ability to use a whoopee cushion app or play Cookie Jam on their car's main screen?

I understand that infotainment tech is not implicitly tied to engine tech, but again, it's not particularly the focal point for an enthusiast and EVs tend to be almost 100% focused on this, some Teslas don't even give you a gauge cluster. AA and Carplay was already offered in 2016 and their presence means the car's system getting upgrades is less important.


Needless to say, this is of course just my opinion.

There is only one thing missign with an EV and that's the NVH. Or in non engineering terms, vroom vroom. Otherwise an EV is pretty much better in most driving situations. And keep in mind an ICE in 10 years will not be any better than today. They are tapped out which is why everyone is going EV. Batteries? Millions are going to get up Monday morning and go to work to invent the next gen. FYI, most cars in 2025? The batteries for those are not in production yet.

Originally Posted by pyroguy

I'm glad you're enjoying your EV. What I'm more glad about is that it appears as though Chevrolet/gm is going to let Camaro die internal combustion powered. I think it's awesome that gm is potentially coming out with a Chevrolet Panther as their muscle EV car. It has heritage as the original Camaro intended name, but is something original to not just rebadge a new car with an old nameplate.

As they sit right now, in my opinion, EVs will be a fad like 3D TVs. One day they will disappear quietly like 3D TVs did. They're a neat idea, but they're still an inferior vehicle compared to their internal combustion powered counterparts.

Ok this is fine, but what will it be replaced with because it won't be ICEs.

Originally Posted by jamala00

I don't believe anyone tries to hide the fact that petroleum isn't clean energy, but Gov and everyone else would love to pretend that EV's are. That's kind of the point he was getting at. Everyone tries to sell you the fact that EVs are "clean energy" There not...

Yes, yes they are. If you were to do a weee bit of unbiased research you would see that they are. Not day one due to manufacturing, but in a year and a half or so they have crossed over and are cleaner. Sorry, but it's how it works out.

Originally Posted by CHASLT1

I am not paying these crazy prices for any EV. 30K is about the max i wanna spend on anything. Only EV i would think of buying is a small S10 size 2 door pickup with at least 350 to 450hp. I would sell the C6 for that. Other than that there is no other car i care to buy.

GM has the Bolt and Bolt EUV well under $30,000. The new Equinox EV should also be under $30K. Nope, not a Spark or Trax but under $30k is going to be more prevalent.

Originally Posted by Casper the friendly G

Lets also not forget that to charge your EV will come from an additional fuel like Petroleum, Natural gas or coal. Lets also not forget is we have no clue how to dispose of these used batteries as they too are highly toxic to the environment.

Again, do some unbiased research. You'll see this isn't quite true. Partially yes, but research will show that even coal fired power plants aren't that bad compared to the number of ICEs on the road.


So to be honest, an EV will not likely give you vroom vroom sounds or the vibration of a high performance engine. But it will handle, it will be fun to drive and it will have character. And sorry for the anit EV crowd, it will be cleaner overall.

And other than vroom vroom sounds (Stelantis has a fix lol) engieers are working every single day to fix the remaining complaints of EVs and LiION batteries. ICEs? There is no pay back for inventing anything at this piont. EVs? Payback for inventing any improvements is HUGE. So as an engineer, I am highly confident that engineers will address everything but the NVH issue.

[Red Chief]

Originally Posted by Casper the friendly G

Lets also not forget that to charge your EV will come from an additional fuel like Petroleum, Natural gas or coal. Lets also not forget is we have no clue how to dispose of these used batteries as they too are highly toxic to the environment.

You can point out the obvious to people and it'll still go in one ear and out the other.

Most people don't seem to realize these batteries discharge 24/7 if you don't have them plugged in.

TESLA Model 3 Owner's Manual

Battery Care
Never allow the Battery to fully discharge. Even when Model 3 is not being driven, its Battery discharges very slowly to power the onboard electronics. The Battery can discharge at a rate of approximately 1% per day, though the discharge rate may vary depending on environmental factors (such as cold weather), vehicle configuration, and your selected settings on the touchscreen.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/m...641FFAEF4.html

[FarmerFran]

How much is a Plaid? and where is the drop top EV?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Casper the friendly G

Lets also not forget that to charge your EV will come from an additional fuel like Petroleum, Natural gas or coal. Lets also not forget is we have no clue how to dispose of these used batteries as they too are highly toxic to the environment.

This Motor Trend article does a good job of comparing efficiency of gasoline powered vehicles versus EVs assuming the different electricity generation sources. Even for vehicles powered by coal generated electricity, the efficiency lands way in favor of the EV. They looked at electricity generated by coal, natural gas, and hydro. The outcome was good —> better —> best, all in favor of the EV. https://www.motortrend.com/news/evs-...stion-engines/

With regards to the batteries, this has been disproved many many times. There is a growing business in battery recycling. The Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) provides funding for construction of EV battery recycling facilities. These recycling facilities will also significantly reduce the amount of “fresh” lithium, cobalt, nickel, et cetera required in battery manufacture.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/27/lith...-from-doe.html

It’s pretty safe to assume that all the obvious “here’s why EVs will fail” scenarios have already been examined by people who get paid good money to resolve those issues.

[LeonardS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This Motor Trend article does a good job of comparing efficiency of gasoline powered vehicles versus EVs assuming the different electricity generation sources. Even for vehicles powered by coal generated electricity, the efficiency lands way in favor of the EV. They looked at electricity generated by coal, natural gas, and hydro. The outcome was good —> better —> best, all in favor of the EV. https://www.motortrend.com/news/evs-...stion-engines/

With regards to the batteries, this has been disproved many many times. There is a growing business in battery recycling. The Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) provides funding for construction of EV battery recycling facilities. These recycling facilities will also significantly reduce the amount of “fresh” lithium, cobalt, nickel, et cetera required in battery manufacture.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/27/lith...-from-doe.html

It’s pretty safe to assume that all the obvious “here’s why EVs will fail” scenarios have already been examined by people who get paid good money to resolve those issues.

I think the biggest issue is “where is all this electricity going to come from”? Our Electric Coop says they don’t have access to enough electricity if there are 3,4,5 EV’s on every block.

[Casper the friendly G]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

My ZL1 walks quickly away from a Model 3 Performance at highway speeds. Remember, these EVs have a single speed transmission so once they are at speed they don't pull as hard. Down low is where they shine, which let's be honest, that is where you spend most of the time driving/accelerating.

Now the Tesla Model S Plaid with its 3 motors and 1020hp fixes all that and still has a single speed transmission. Watch this pull. Silly fast.

I'd rather be seen is this than a Tesla Plaid EV.....

https://cdn3.volusion.com/wnwed.cenk...che=1499791203