[cellsafemode]

Further, pushing this may also push decentralization of the electrical grid. Getting more adoption of solar power and thus less of a strain on central power stations. The cars being big batteries can even act as stabilizers (something i think tesla envisions in some of their future dreams).

But this fear that electric cars are pushing the middle class out is nonsense. The middle class has been getting attacked since manufacturers decided third world countries are cheaper do business in than the US. Since education failed to shift towards teaching software rather than woodshop. Since the government decided that big business rights are equal to (but more important than) individual citizens.

Saying this is driving the middle class out would require ignoring 30 years of eliminating the middle class and all of the improvements that come with being less dependent on fossil fuels and the monopolies and politics that are associated with them around the world.

[NeverDie]

The whole conversation about destroying the middle class can just be resolved by pointing fingers at the selfish decisions of the Baby Boomer generation and how this impacted housing and education.

But yeah electric cars whee

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

They are also regulated as to what they can do, environmentally, to clear that land.

It's a fine mess that California has created for itself.

"The more the plans fail, the more the planners' plan"- Ronald Reagan

What you have is decades of infrastructure created when no care was being made to how it would impact the environment along with people amassing in valleys...so now you have stuff in places it should have never been in to begin with.

The easiest solutions are controlled burns, but that basically funnels smoke directly to where people live and it stays there for long periods of time. So not very popular.

The better solutions cost more so companies and governments drag their feet on those... such as underground lines and moving lines or adding more power stations closer to where people live. etc.


Everyone wants to profit the same or more than they did last year instead of temporarily deal with higher costs and lower profits to get things done. companies fail to do the right thing because they're beholdent to stock holders and they pay off the government so they can't be forced. Then we cycle around until the problem is so big and expensive that everyone is F'd except the 1% who run the companies.

[LT4Greg]

Originally Posted by NeverDie

The whole conversation about destroying the middle class can just be resolved by pointing fingers at the selfish decisions of the Baby Boomer generation and how this impacted housing and education.

But yeah electric cars whee

Yeah that’s right, go ahead and blame all the problems now in this country on the Baby Boomer generation! I’m in that generation and I’m just trying to exist and make a living to survive so don’t blame me for the problems that we are facing now in this country or the world!

[cellsafemode]

I'm less concerned with electric cars being mandated for all new car sales in 15 years than I am with the general progression of cars (ice and e) towards turning you into a user rather than an owner. The general progression of taking away your right to repair. The progression towards locking you into manufacturer only options by using encrypted or proprietary solutions to what would otherwise be easily standardized options for owners. The general progression of cars to always be connected and sending that telemetry data to their home base to sell to other legally entrenched parties (insurance, law enforcement etc).

All of that should be far more upsetting and infuriating than ending ICE cars. We're on the road towards ending driving ....and towards just being driven...with no real ownership and no real privacy. Fun. And that's happening whether or not your new car is electric.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by LT4Greg

Yeah that’s right, go ahead and blame all the problems now in this country on the Baby Boomer generation! I’m in that generation and I’m just trying to exist and make a living to survive so don’t blame me for the problems that we are facing now in this country or the world!

Obviously you dont blame everyone in a generation when you say something l ike "boomers are to blame" or some other generation for some other thing.

You're blaming the successful ones when you say those things.

The boomers who were in charge of government and companies and had the power to make policy changes and laws and actions that their companies took.

Nobody cares about everyone who didn't have power. The failure of voters is not specific to any generation. Not participating in voting is something more american than having the national anthem played before every single sporting event.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by LateBrakeU2

Just a socialist prepping for a presidential bid in four years. His legacy will not be one of clean air, but eliminating the middle class in CA.

You should really educate yourself on who supports the middle class and who doesn't.

[CamaroRSOnt]

Originally Posted by slimjim2525

You realize this is an executive order and not a law. Huge difference. And in 2035 they will be saying Gavin who? All a smoke screen.

Exactly !!

2 billion gasoline powered vehicles in the fleet on the planet today, California is blowing smoke. EV's can't make money with all the subsidies thrown at them, about 2% of all new vehicles sold (including hybrids) despite all the favours and regulations thrown at them by gov'ts.

Elon promises a $25k EV in three years the other day, trouble is he promised that 2 yrs ago as well. Another guy that blows a lot of smoke but lives off gov't and mandated subsidies from other auto companies.

[LT4Greg]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Obviously you dont blame everyone in a generation when you say something l ike "boomers are to blame" or some other generation for some other thing.

You're blaming the successful ones when you say those things.

The boomers who were in charge of government and companies and had the power to make policy changes and laws and actions that their companies took.

Nobody cares about everyone who didn't have power. The failure of voters is not specific to any generation. Not participating in voting is something more american than having the national anthem played before every single sporting event.

That’s not what his reply said. To me he was blaming problems on all of us in that generation whether we were in power positions or not. I’m done with the discussion.

[avalonandl]

Your 2035 Camaro SS

[avalonandl]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Obviously you dont blame everyone in a generation when you say something l ike "boomers are to blame" or some other generation for some other thing.

You're blaming the successful ones when you say those things.

The boomers who were in charge of government and companies and had the power to make policy changes and laws and actions that their companies took.

Nobody cares about everyone who didn't have power. The failure of voters is not specific to any generation. Not participating in voting is something more american than having the national anthem played before every single sporting event.

Can I have that in ENGLISH....your answer is not clear to me...but I only have an Masters degree...

[NeverDie]

I think it's something along the lines of they just refuse accountability and think that is ok.

At least that's what I'm seeing?

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by CamaroRSOnt

Exactly !!

2 billion gasoline powered vehicles in the fleet on the planet today, California is blowing smoke. EV's can't make money with all the subsidies thrown at them, about 2% of all new vehicles sold (including hybrids) despite all the favours and regulations thrown at them by gov'ts.

Elon promises a $25k EV in three years the other day, trouble is he promised that 2 yrs ago as well. Another guy that blows a lot of smoke but lives off gov't and mandated subsidies from other auto companies.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/18/elon...3-years--.html

If you read what he actually says though, this is less of a statement of what he is saying they're going to do and more of a brainstorming of what could be done or what he'd like to do if everything ideal happened. But you have to read what was actually said.

As far as living off subsidies. Tesla doesn't live off subsidies any more than ICE cars do. The US government spends 20 billion a year in petroleum subsidies. Poor poor unprofitable fuel companies. These subsidies keep fuel prices lower than they would be without them, i'm sure.

Lets say only a percentage of that went towards automotive oil and gasoline. The electric car subsidies via that 7500 dollar tax credit only amounts to tens of millions in taxes that go back towards individuals rather than the companies. Even if every electric car sold since 2010 got 7500 bucks, that's still only about 10 billion in tax credits to individuals vs 20 billion per year that oil companies get.

The programs created in recent history to help fund R&D via grants and government programs amount to only 2 billion in total (that's not a recurring yearly cost...it's a one time set of funds for any manufacturer to apply towards)


I dont get the hostility towards funding research and development in a country that is falling behind in research and development and has no hope of competing in any other area (such as manufacturing) except new technology and maybe movies/tv with other countries.

Further, if we're going to be upset with subsidies propping up businesses, then how are you not constantly yelling about petroleum studies so much that you dont have time to even consider electric since they get an insane amount more every single year than EV has in its entire modern history.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by avalonandl

Can I have that in ENGLISH....your answer is not clear to me...but I only have an Masters degree...

English: People who talk about generations being responsible for X, Y or Z are talking about the successful people of that generation. Not the forgettable ones (such as those who are just trying to get by).

But the forgettable ones are still responsible ...just no more or less than any generation's forgettable people because we all fail to vote. Of the registered voters only about half vote during presidential elections and only about 20% vote during mid-term....which is _JUST_ as important. All of the money and focus ends up being on the president, but all of the laws get made and passed by congress...of which nobody really pays any attention to.