09-20-2019, 01:20 PM | #3571 | |
Drives: 1SS, A8, MRC, NPP, Blade Spoiler Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MD
Posts: 1,485
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Dodge claims it can reduce IAT temps by as much as 45 Degrees F. It makes sense that they would keep their cars running with the A/C going, because you have to keep the refregerant compressed. Plus, you can keep cool while waiting for your turn... |
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09-21-2019, 05:32 AM | #3572 | |||
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Drives: 2017 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: May 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,692
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I kinda feel like GM built the 6th Gen to handle the ZLE's capabilities and then just threw the SS and lower trim drivetrains in it. But Ford built a car and then decided to add a 760 HP powerplant to it after the fact. Perhaps that is why it took this long. Perhaps that chassis was not capable of handling that kind of power or the kind of cornering capabilities that would be needed to bang heads with the ZL1. Quote:
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For the record, although these are the current top trim Challengers and Mustangs they still are not Corvettes. The Vette is priced high but it also offers nearly unbeatable all around performance much like it's baby brother. The Challengers are only good for one thing. It remains to be seen if the GT500 can prove itself. But they are not on the same performance level as the Vettes that cost the same price. So I'm not sure how they can be compared and how the price can be justified from that standpoint. |
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09-21-2019, 07:07 AM | #3573 | |
Retired from GM
Drives: 2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,191
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The overall “performance envelope” is defined as the platform concept is developed. Even though everything isn’t nailed down to the nth degree, the targets are firmly in place. Once the limits of the platform are set, specking and developing the different performance levels falls into place. The higher trims still take longer to come to market, because even though the targets are clear, the “how to achieve them” still takes time to come together. Plus, rolling them out one at a time, good, better, best is a proven concept in the marketplace. Have you noticed that for GM C7 Z06 exceeded C6 ZR1 performance? And 6th Gen SS performance is on par with 5th Gen ZL1? And then the top range cars (ZL1 and ZR1) blew those performance levels out of the water? That’s how. Setting the mark for each performance trim to be on par with the one step HIGHER trim for the outgoing model. So....what does that mean for C8 Z06?
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2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD | GM Performance CAI | Tony Mamo LT1 V2 Ported TB | Kooks 1-7/8” LT Headers | FlexFuel Tune | Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties | 1LE Wheels in Gunmetal Gray | Carbon Fiber Interior Overlays | Novistretch bra and mirror covers | Tow hitch for bicycle rack | Last edited by Martinjlm; 09-21-2019 at 07:49 AM. |
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09-21-2019, 07:39 AM | #3574 | |
Drives: 2019 GT350 Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 3,232
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2019 GT350 RR
2013 Boss Mustang 2012 SRT Challenger 392 auto 12:40s 112 stock 2012 Ford Mustang 5.0. Brembo, 3:73s 2010 SS, LS3, Cammed, LTs, 12:20s 2004 Redfire Cobra, Pullied & Tuned 1986 GT, Ed Curtis 347ci, 11:20s motor. 10:30s 100-hp shot |
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09-21-2019, 08:19 AM | #3575 | |
1st Civ. Div.
Drives: Camaroless for now...RIP "Big SexZ" Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 2,724
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Swift....Silent....Deadly
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09-21-2019, 08:55 AM | #3576 | ||
Drives: 20 1LE 2SS M6 Rally Green Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Franklin WI
Posts: 6,632
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It is impressive that they set the mark to jump trims with the change generations.
Ford appears to have set the mark for the S550 as the outgoing Zeta platform Camaro. Even then, only certain metrics and completely missing others. Then they backtracked and redesigned the GT and delayed the GT500. Ford’s 0.1 advantage with the GT* doesn’t compensate for the inadequacies of its chassis or how poor the GT still is. How do you even describe the PP2? A street car with the suspension that should be on the PP1, with tires that are wrong for the street? Now we’ll see what the GT500 can do. In typical Ford fashion, I expect the $74k GT500 will have serious inadequacies that the $94k GT500 CF (“*” trim) will cover but somehow still not be a completely well sorted car. Ford and Dodge aren’t at the same level as Chevy but Dodge doesn’t pretend to be. So while newmoon celebrates Ford eeking out conditional, * trim related victories against four model year old Camaro’s, Chevy Performance has served notice with the C8. Forward =>
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"the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” Ronald Reagan - Last edited by hotlap; 09-21-2019 at 01:45 PM. |
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09-21-2019, 09:34 AM | #3577 | |
Drives: 2017 2SS M6 Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Billings MT
Posts: 773
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Even if the GT500 surpasses every car in the segment (I dont think it will) this generation is a loss for Ford. The 350 is not a better performer than the SLE, the 350R got spanked in every performance metric by the cheaper ZL1. The PP2 is laughable and the Bullitt somehow manages to be slower than the GT PP1 M6 on which it is based. But hey the GT* is .1 faster than the SS |
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09-21-2019, 09:48 AM | #3578 | |
Drives: HBM ZLE Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: In the garage
Posts: 799
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09-21-2019, 09:51 AM | #3579 | |
Drives: 20 1LE 2SS M6 Rally Green Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Franklin WI
Posts: 6,632
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Meanwhile at Chevy, they build enough to fully satisfy demand. That means regular people can own them. That’s special.
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"the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” Ronald Reagan - Last edited by hotlap; 09-21-2019 at 01:47 PM. |
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09-21-2019, 10:24 AM | #3580 | |
Drives: 20 1LE 2SS M6 Rally Green Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Franklin WI
Posts: 6,632
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My favorite was the PP1 and PP2 media campaign were they use press snippets to create unrealistic expectations and lined up sources like Evan, Lund, etc to put out hero time ...because “Ford” doesn’t release performance data. Phony. I just can’t take Ford seriously.
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"the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” Ronald Reagan - Last edited by hotlap; 09-21-2019 at 01:48 PM. |
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09-21-2019, 03:47 PM | #3581 | |
Drives: 2019 GT350 Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 3,232
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2019 GT350 RR
2013 Boss Mustang 2012 SRT Challenger 392 auto 12:40s 112 stock 2012 Ford Mustang 5.0. Brembo, 3:73s 2010 SS, LS3, Cammed, LTs, 12:20s 2004 Redfire Cobra, Pullied & Tuned 1986 GT, Ed Curtis 347ci, 11:20s motor. 10:30s 100-hp shot |
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09-21-2019, 05:14 PM | #3582 | |
Drives: '01 Z28 Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 287
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When a non-cf GT500 finally shows up at the local Ford dealer, I will be looking at it from behind a velvet rope while they auction off the privilege of buying it to a handful of rich geezers. You can compare MSRP like it’s Monopoly money but newsflash, OTD price is the only one that matters to actual buyers spending real American dollars. Ford finally drags their answer out in slow motion and acts like they’ve done everyone a favor by building it at all. They limit production lower than demand knowing full well their customers will get raped with ADMs. The actual OTD price difference between a GT500 and a ZL1 will be about the same as a ZL1 over a Mustang GT. If you’re talking CFP then it will probably be about as big a price gap between ZL1 and a base Ecoboost. So go ahead and compare the 500 to the ZL1. For the $$$ it remains one of the best drivers cars in the world and has nothing to apologize for. If this 500 does anything less than mop the floor with the ZL1 on the strip and track then it’s Ford’s embarrassment and an insult to their customers. Last edited by Craig; 09-21-2019 at 05:43 PM. |
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09-21-2019, 05:38 PM | #3583 | |
Drives: 20 1LE 2SS M6 Rally Green Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Franklin WI
Posts: 6,632
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"the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” Ronald Reagan - |
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09-22-2019, 01:48 PM | #3584 |
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Drives: 2017 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: May 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,692
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What should matter more to the consumer isn't sales but whether or not you can buy the car. And if you can buy the car then do you have the opportunity to attain that car. Ok so let's say the ZL1 needs heavy discounts to move it. The fact remains that you can walk to the dealership and drive one home for a great price that, according to newmoon, is tens of thousands f dollars below MSRP...so like $25K gets you a brand new fully loaded ZL1. On the other hand Ford put the GT500 far out of reach of their customers. And those who can afford it, a lot of them, have chosen to go a different route because they can't see spending that much for a Mustang. Basically you're not touching a GT500 for less than $90K Base and about $110K CF. And that is if you don't add anything onto the car. A few addons and the Base will be $100K with the CF hitting $125K. All for a car that hopes to beat a $71K Redeye and a $64K ZL1. I mentioned the Redeye before and how they're all $90K when optioned. However I can still go get one without extra options at MSRP and pay $71K. And dealerships are discounting them. I've seen some drop from $88K to about $76K in the past few months. You're not getting any GT500 of any version with any options or without any options for less than $90K-$95K. Unless it's a story of some guy that some Mustang person heard about who managed to get one at MSRP...but more than likely they gave him $10K less on a trade or somehow got him to give up an extra $10K somehow somewhere. LOL!
So what I'm saying is that for a consumer the only thing that matters is your chances of getting the car. And all I see are Mustang guys who have no chance of getting a GT500 but bragging about how awesome it might be. It's like bragging about the hot cheerleader that you're never gonna bang, lol!! And I'll mention that you can say what you want about how terrible you think the ZL1 is, the fact remains that everyone who has bought one and came over here from M6G has raved about how much better the ZL1 is over the GT350. The GT500 will be no less since most of them won't even be able to get one. And speaking of Mustangs behind velvet ropes, I went to a local Ford dealership a few years ago and they had a GT350 non-R behind a rope. My little brother wanted to take a look at it and the salesman told us we could not walk past the rope. They wouldn't even let anyone sit in the car. There was a sign saying not to pass the rope and to see a salesman, lol!! I looked at the original sticker and saw a $10,000 market adjustment assessment price. I laughed at them and we walked out of there. Less than a year later I got my ZL1 for less than what they were trying to sell that GT350 for. And remember that was a non-R. Even without the adjustment it was over $60K OTD. What a joke. |
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