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Old 09-20-2019, 01:20 PM   #3571
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Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
I see Dodges with the chiller leave thier engine running in the staging lanes even on a sweltering hot day. Does a Chiller really work in keeping the IAT temps low?

Very cool either way, it even sounds cool.
Yes, these systems are supposed to work well. This technology has been used in the aftermarket, and there are a couple of companies out there that sell them and claim as much as 50 HP can be added by using their product. Some folks say it's much like using nitrous (although I am not sure that analogy is quite right).

Dodge claims it can reduce IAT temps by as much as 45 Degrees F.

It makes sense that they would keep their cars running with the A/C going, because you have to keep the refregerant compressed. Plus, you can keep cool while waiting for your turn...
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Old 09-21-2019, 05:32 AM   #3572
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Here is what Al had to say about the GT500 almost two years ago.

Bueller ...Bueller ...Bueller
Those words from Al represent entirely what I think. The GT500 is bringing tons of HP and some neat CF tricks to the table. But that is about all it has. It is still on the S550 chassis which is not on Alpha chassis level. The fact that they claimed it was tested to X MPH but then they had to cut it to 180 MPH and threw out a "oh well where are you going to drive that fast anyway" statement tells me that it isn't up to snuff. Why would they even make that statement? To me it means they are hiding something. And that something is that it cannot handle safely at those speeds. The fact that the Hellcat has terrible handling characteristics yet it can safely go 204 MPH says a lot. And even the 490 HP Base C8 can safely handle 194 HP. The Z71 even does 184. So what really is the deal with the GT500? I think the GT500 is just not balanced or designed as well as the ZL1 is. And I think we'll see that if they put both cars on a technical track.

I kinda feel like GM built the 6th Gen to handle the ZLE's capabilities and then just threw the SS and lower trim drivetrains in it. But Ford built a car and then decided to add a 760 HP powerplant to it after the fact. Perhaps that is why it took this long. Perhaps that chassis was not capable of handling that kind of power or the kind of cornering capabilities that would be needed to bang heads with the ZL1.
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Agreed ^ That is where the ford guys argument of camaro is a parts bin car bites them in the ass. Yeah it might be a parts bin car, but sharing the platform with two other vehicles, engines with two other vehicles etc etc is probably the reason why the Camaro is able to have it's affordable price in the top of the line model.
This must be the reason. Because the competition is pricing their cars way too high if you ask me.
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As a car guy I can really appreciate what the north american car companies have managed to accomplish in the past 15 years, who would have thought that we would have 3 cars that could eclipse the hero's of the past. On top of that Chevy has a Vette coming out that may be the best ever, we will need to wait to see how that evolves as the car is released upon the market.
I see the comment often made that Ford and Dodge have priced their cars higher than the Camaro, I see no problem with this as Chevy has 2 performance cars one is the Halo Vette with the top trim 153K and the Camaro at half that. Ford is looking at the 500 as their Halo car and for the top trim it is still under GM's, Dodge has done the same thing since the Viper has been discontinued and they have more offerings from bottom to top to their Halo car.
It mostly comes down to personal preference on what one of these cars is the one that does it for you, I would never pay what these top cars demand and it is fun to go back and forth on this topic but truth be told if I was ever going to spend close to 100k on a car it would never be on any of these, I would look for a nice 69 Hurst Olds or a 70 442 W30.
If they were priced higher by a couple thousand then fine. But when they are $20K and $30K for a similarly equipped vehicle except they have only one function (going fast in a straight line) then something is way off. No Camaro is even close to $90K let alone being well into the $90K range at MSRP. The Redeyes when optioned a certain way are in the low $90Ks. The CF GT500 starts at $94K. Meanwhile the most I've seen the ZLE hit was $76K MSRP and they were being sold for much less. Dodge recently started giving $8K - $10K discounts on the Redeye. Probably because people stopped buying them when C8 pricing was announced. But I think we're seeing a downward trend now since the dealers started those ADMs. Now even the manufacturers are sinking their teeth in. I don't think anyone can deny this anymore when GM is the only one not priced sky high and were the only ones not charging markups. Although some still disagree. But since now even the GT350 and GT350R has seen an increase I think it is more clear.

For the record, although these are the current top trim Challengers and Mustangs they still are not Corvettes. The Vette is priced high but it also offers nearly unbeatable all around performance much like it's baby brother. The Challengers are only good for one thing. It remains to be seen if the GT500 can prove itself. But they are not on the same performance level as the Vettes that cost the same price. So I'm not sure how they can be compared and how the price can be justified from that standpoint.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:07 AM   #3573
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
....
I kinda feel like GM built the 6th Gen to handle the ZLE's capabilities and then just threw the SS and lower trim drivetrains in it. But Ford built a car and then decided to add a 760 HP powerplant to it after the fact. Perhaps that is why it took this long. Perhaps that chassis was not capable of handling that kind of power or the kind of cornering capabilities that would be needed to bang heads with the ZL1.

....
This is definitely true. Probably true for Ford, too. Although 760 may have exceeded where they intended to go with S550. They sorta got baited to go that high by Demon. That and the DCT are probably the two biggest reasons for the delays.

The overall “performance envelope” is defined as the platform concept is developed. Even though everything isn’t nailed down to the nth degree, the targets are firmly in place. Once the limits of the platform are set, specking and developing the different performance levels falls into place. The higher trims still take longer to come to market, because even though the targets are clear, the “how to achieve them” still takes time to come together. Plus, rolling them out one at a time, good, better, best is a proven concept in the marketplace.

Have you noticed that for GM C7 Z06 exceeded C6 ZR1 performance? And 6th Gen SS performance is on par with 5th Gen ZL1? And then the top range cars (ZL1 and ZR1) blew those performance levels out of the water? That’s how. Setting the mark for each performance trim to be on par with the one step HIGHER trim for the outgoing model. So....what does that mean for C8 Z06?
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:39 AM   #3574
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
Those words from Al represent entirely what I think. The GT500 is bringing tons of HP and some neat CF tricks to the table. But that is about all it has. It is still on the S550 chassis which is not on Alpha chassis level. The fact that they claimed it was tested to X MPH but then they had to cut it to 180 MPH and threw out a "oh well where are you going to drive that fast anyway" statement tells me that it isn't up to snuff. Why would they even make that statement? To me it means they are hiding something. And that something is that it cannot handle safely at those speeds. The fact that the Hellcat has terrible handling characteristics yet it can safely go 204 MPH says a lot. And even the 490 HP Base C8 can safely handle 194 HP. The Z71 even does 184. So what really is the deal with the GT500? I think the GT500 is just not balanced or designed as well as the ZL1 is. And I think we'll see that if they put both cars on a technical track.

I kinda feel like GM built the 6th Gen to handle the ZLE's capabilities and then just threw the SS and lower trim drivetrains in it. But Ford built a car and then decided to add a 760 HP powerplant to it after the fact. Perhaps that is why it took this long. Perhaps that chassis was not capable of handling that kind of power or the kind of cornering capabilities that would be needed to bang heads with the ZL1.

This must be the reason. Because the competition is pricing their cars way too high if you ask me.

If they were priced higher by a couple thousand then fine. But when they are $20K and $30K for a similarly equipped vehicle except they have only one function (going fast in a straight line) then something is way off. No Camaro is even close to $90K let alone being well into the $90K range at MSRP. The Redeyes when optioned a certain way are in the low $90Ks. The CF GT500 starts at $94K. Meanwhile the most I've seen the ZLE hit was $76K MSRP and they were being sold for much less. Dodge recently started giving $8K - $10K discounts on the Redeye. Probably because people stopped buying them when C8 pricing was announced. But I think we're seeing a downward trend now since the dealers started those ADMs. Now even the manufacturers are sinking their teeth in. I don't think anyone can deny this anymore when GM is the only one not priced sky high and were the only ones not charging markups. Although some still disagree. But since now even the GT350 and GT350R has seen an increase I think it is more clear.

For the record, although these are the current top trim Challengers and Mustangs they still are not Corvettes. The Vette is priced high but it also offers nearly unbeatable all around performance much like it's baby brother. The Challengers are only good for one thing. It remains to be seen if the GT500 can prove itself. But they are not on the same performance level as the Vettes that cost the same price. So I'm not sure how they can be compared and how the price can be justified from that standpoint.
People will pay what they think the car is worth, regardless of what you or I say or think. Presently the ZL1 is the lowest priced within the segment, problem is even with the low MSRP Chevy still has to heavily discount them to move off the lots, I'm certain Chevy would prefer that not to be the case.
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Old 09-21-2019, 08:19 AM   #3575
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
People will pay what they think the car is worth, regardless of what you or I say or think. Presently the ZL1 is the lowest priced within the segment, problem is even with the low MSRP Chevy still has to heavily discount them to move off the lots, I'm certain Chevy would prefer that not to be the case.
GM has not put any heavy discounts on the 6thgen performance cars.
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Old 09-21-2019, 08:55 AM   #3576
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
...
For the record, although these are the current top trim Challengers and Mustangs they still are not Corvettes. The Vette is priced high but it also offers nearly unbeatable all around performance much like it's baby brother. The Challengers are only good for one thing. It remains to be seen if the GT500 can prove itself. But they are not on the same performance level as the Vettes that cost the same price. So I'm not sure how they can be compared and how the price can be justified from that standpoint.
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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
...
Have you noticed that for GM C7 Z06 exceeded C6 ZR1 performance? And 6th Gen SS performance is on par with 5th Gen ZL1? And then the top range cars (ZL1 and ZR1) blew those performance levels out of the water? That’s how. Setting the mark for each performance trim to be on par with the one step HIGHER trim for the outgoing model. So....what does that mean for C8 Z06?
Chevy Performance builds the most capable, well rounded, cars and that capability projects all the way down to the base trims.

It is impressive that they set the mark to jump trims with the change generations.
  • gen6 SS = gen5 ZL1
  • C7 Z06 = C6 ZR1
  • C8 is a $60k supercar

Ford appears to have set the mark for the S550 as the outgoing Zeta platform Camaro. Even then, only certain metrics and completely missing others. Then they backtracked and redesigned the GT and delayed the GT500.

Ford’s 0.1 advantage with the GT* doesn’t compensate for the inadequacies of its chassis or how poor the GT still is.

How do you even describe the PP2? A street car with the suspension that should be on the PP1, with tires that are wrong for the street?

Now we’ll see what the GT500 can do. In typical Ford fashion, I expect the $74k GT500 will have serious inadequacies that the $94k GT500 CF (*” trim) will cover but somehow still not be a completely well sorted car.

Ford and Dodge aren’t at the same level as Chevy but Dodge doesn’t pretend to be.

So while newmoon celebrates Ford eeking out conditional, * trim related victories against four model year old Camaro’s, Chevy Performance has served notice with the C8. Forward =>
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Old 09-21-2019, 09:34 AM   #3577
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Originally Posted by hotlap View Post
Chevy Performance builds the most capable, well rounded, cars and that capability projects all the way down to the base trims.

It is impressive that they set the mark to jump trims with the change generations.
  • gen6 SS = gen5 ZL1
  • C7 Z06 = C6 ZR1
  • C8 is a $60k supercar

Ford appears to have set the mark for the S550 as the outgoing Zeta platform Camaro. Even then, only certain metrics and completely missing others. Then they backtracked and redesigned the GT and delayed the GT500.

Ford’s 0.1 advantage with the GT* doesn’t compensate for the inadequacies of its chassis or how poor the GT still is.

How do you even describe the PP2? A street car with the suspension that should be on the PP1, with tires that are wrong for the street?

Now we’ll see what the GT500 can do. In typical Ford fashion, I expect the $74k GT500 will have serious inadequacies that the $94k GT500 CF (*” trim) will cover but somehow still not be a completely well sorted car.

Ford and Dodge aren’t at the same level but Dodge doesn’t pretend to.

So while while newmoon celebrates Ford eeking out conditional, * trim related victories against four model year old Camaro’s, Chevy Performance served notice with the C8. Forward =>
Well I would describe the PP2 as a half baked disappointment. It could have been an actual competitor to the SLE.

Even if the GT500 surpasses every car in the segment (I dont think it will) this generation is a loss for Ford. The 350 is not a better performer than the SLE, the 350R got spanked in every performance metric by the cheaper ZL1. The PP2 is laughable and the Bullitt somehow manages to be slower than the GT PP1 M6 on which it is based.

But hey the GT* is .1 faster than the SS
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Old 09-21-2019, 09:48 AM   #3578
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People will pay what they think the car is worth, regardless of what you or I say or think. Presently the ZL1 is the lowest priced within the segment, problem is even with the low MSRP Chevy still has to heavily discount them to move off the lots, I'm certain Chevy would prefer that not to be the case.
I dont know if you have noticed but their are many, many, many idiots out there. Some of them have money. I agree people will pay what they think something is worth, however what they paid doesnt mean it holds that value. Someone could pay 100k but if they turn around, try to sell it, and nobody will buy it, that's not its value. Just some dumbass with money. For example, I'm working right next to a ford dealer yesterday, walked in because I thought they had a gt500 in the showroom. Turned out to be a 350r. Msrp 72k, with dealer markup, 82k. How you gonna charge more for a 350r than a base gt500. Guess those CF wheels are pricey. Also tells me nobody is getting a gt500 for anything less than 10k over sticker
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Old 09-21-2019, 09:51 AM   #3579
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
People will pay what they think the car is worth, regardless of what you or I say or think. Presently the ZL1 is the lowest priced within the segment, problem is even with the low MSRP Chevy still has to heavily discount them to move off the lots, I'm certain Chevy would prefer that not to be the case.
Ford discounts, and fleet sells, the hell out of the Mustang. It’s volume is a direct relationship. Then they severely restrict availability of the Shelby models to drive up demand leading to unattainable cost for guys like him.

Meanwhile at Chevy, they build enough to fully satisfy demand. That means regular people can own them. That’s special.
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:24 AM   #3580
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Well I would describe the PP2 as a half baked disappointment. It could have been an actual competitor to the SLE.

Even if the GT500 surpasses every car in the segment (I dont think it will) this generation is a loss for Ford. The 350 is not a better performer than the SLE, the 350R got spanked in every performance metric by the cheaper ZL1. The PP2 is laughable and the Bullitt somehow manages to be slower than the GT PP1 M6 on which it is based.

But hey the GT* is .1 faster than the SS
The PP2 is another * for Ford. They create snowflake, conditional press victories that the non * owners then quote.

My favorite was the PP1 and PP2 media campaign were they use press snippets to create unrealistic expectations and lined up sources like Evan, Lund, etc to put out hero time ...because “Ford” doesn’t release performance data. Phony.

I just can’t take Ford seriously.
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Old 09-21-2019, 03:47 PM   #3581
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Ford discounts, and fleet sells, the hell out of the Mustang. It’s volume is a direct relationship. Then they severely restrict availability of the Shelby models to drive up demand leading to unattainable cost for guys like him.

Meanwhile at Chevy, they build enough to fully satisfy demand. That means regular people can own them. That’s special.
I don't think that there has been any severe restrictions on the GT350 models as compared to the ZL1. Looking at model year 2017 the production numbers for both the ZL1 and GT350 were very similar.
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Old 09-21-2019, 05:14 PM   #3582
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People will pay what they think the car is worth, regardless of what you or I say or think. Presently the ZL1 is the lowest priced within the segment, problem is even with the low MSRP Chevy still has to heavily discount them to move off the lots, I'm certain Chevy would prefer that not to be the case.
You make great points, let’s expound on them. Chevy’s best Camaro is on dealer lots, now. I can go to my local dealer today, actually drive the car, and buy it for well under sticker price if I like.

When a non-cf GT500 finally shows up at the local Ford dealer, I will be looking at it from behind a velvet rope while they auction off the privilege of buying it to a handful of rich geezers. You can compare MSRP like it’s Monopoly money but newsflash, OTD price is the only one that matters to actual buyers spending real American dollars.

Ford finally drags their answer out in slow motion and acts like they’ve done everyone a favor by building it at all. They limit production lower than demand knowing full well their customers will get raped with ADMs. The actual OTD price difference between a GT500 and a ZL1 will be about the same as a ZL1 over a Mustang GT. If you’re talking CFP then it will probably be about as big a price gap between ZL1 and a base Ecoboost. So go ahead and compare the 500 to the ZL1. For the $$$ it remains one of the best drivers cars in the world and has nothing to apologize for. If this 500 does anything less than mop the floor with the ZL1 on the strip and track then it’s Ford’s embarrassment and an insult to their customers.

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Old 09-21-2019, 05:38 PM   #3583
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I don't think that there has been any severe restrictions on the GT350 models as compared to the ZL1. Looking at model year 2017 the production numbers for both the ZL1 and GT350 were very similar.
I’ve posted this for you before. Note the part about the short 2017 ZL1 model year ...only four months long. Also, GT350s can now be found discounted below MSRP

In 2018 Ford produced 4,378 GT350’s. Chevy produced 6,164 ZL1’s
In 2018 Ford produced 633 GT350R. Chevy produced 1,567 ZLE

Chevy delivered the first 2017 ZL1 eight months into the 2017 model year (April 15, 2017). That’s 3,048 in four months.

In 2016 Ford delivered 3,814 overheating GT350’s without coolers

In one year of production (2018), Chevy produced more ZL1 1LE’s (1,567) than Ford produced GT350R in 2015, 2016 and 2017 combined (1,469).

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Old 09-22-2019, 01:48 PM   #3584
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What should matter more to the consumer isn't sales but whether or not you can buy the car. And if you can buy the car then do you have the opportunity to attain that car. Ok so let's say the ZL1 needs heavy discounts to move it. The fact remains that you can walk to the dealership and drive one home for a great price that, according to newmoon, is tens of thousands f dollars below MSRP...so like $25K gets you a brand new fully loaded ZL1. On the other hand Ford put the GT500 far out of reach of their customers. And those who can afford it, a lot of them, have chosen to go a different route because they can't see spending that much for a Mustang. Basically you're not touching a GT500 for less than $90K Base and about $110K CF. And that is if you don't add anything onto the car. A few addons and the Base will be $100K with the CF hitting $125K. All for a car that hopes to beat a $71K Redeye and a $64K ZL1. I mentioned the Redeye before and how they're all $90K when optioned. However I can still go get one without extra options at MSRP and pay $71K. And dealerships are discounting them. I've seen some drop from $88K to about $76K in the past few months. You're not getting any GT500 of any version with any options or without any options for less than $90K-$95K. Unless it's a story of some guy that some Mustang person heard about who managed to get one at MSRP...but more than likely they gave him $10K less on a trade or somehow got him to give up an extra $10K somehow somewhere. LOL!

So what I'm saying is that for a consumer the only thing that matters is your chances of getting the car. And all I see are Mustang guys who have no chance of getting a GT500 but bragging about how awesome it might be. It's like bragging about the hot cheerleader that you're never gonna bang, lol!! And I'll mention that you can say what you want about how terrible you think the ZL1 is, the fact remains that everyone who has bought one and came over here from M6G has raved about how much better the ZL1 is over the GT350. The GT500 will be no less since most of them won't even be able to get one.

And speaking of Mustangs behind velvet ropes, I went to a local Ford dealership a few years ago and they had a GT350 non-R behind a rope. My little brother wanted to take a look at it and the salesman told us we could not walk past the rope. They wouldn't even let anyone sit in the car. There was a sign saying not to pass the rope and to see a salesman, lol!! I looked at the original sticker and saw a $10,000 market adjustment assessment price. I laughed at them and we walked out of there. Less than a year later I got my ZL1 for less than what they were trying to sell that GT350 for. And remember that was a non-R. Even without the adjustment it was over $60K OTD. What a joke.
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